The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by RE: Blaxican3,287 pages

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
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I was simply bringing up scenarios in which certain duels have taxed the Count noticeably or brought him to the point of exhaustion. But both duels are similar in that here and during the fight in ROTS, it is Anakin's raw energies {which are vastly beyond Dooku's} that give him any sort of edge. In that regard, the duel in ROTS is very relevant. When he taps into that reservoir of power, it makes him uncommonly formidable for his age and experience.
Well, if your point is that Dooku does not possess unlimited energy and can be tired out, than I agree. Whoever says otherwise is silly.

That's pretty much my point exactly, but more specifically: Dooku doesn't possess anything close to unlimited energy and can be tired out by Skywalker, or Yoda, or anyone with sufficiently high reserves of power and this has precedent in the EU. Thus Dooku's fatigue isn't inconsistent.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's referenced in The Complete Visual Dictionary, but there's not much evidence of the deception in the film. Dooku's simply forced to give ground seemingly due to the combined ferocity of their synchronized attacks.

It's also mentioned in the novel and I always like the scene due to Dooku's sudden surprise and "fear" when they changed to their true forms. Would be kinda sad to see it go.

George personally line-edited the novelization, but the conflict with the film puts it in a somewhat nebulous realm for me. My methodology requires a certain suspension of disbelief; so I can't just disregard what Lucas put in the novel. But I'd hesitate to declare it canon without doubt.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's referenced in The Complete Visual Dictionary, but there's not much evidence of the deception in the film. Dooku's simply forced to give ground seemingly due to the combined ferocity of their synchronized attacks.

Dooku's style isn't particularly offensive though, and Obi/Anakin were actively bringing the fight to him and trying to flank him.

So if I saw a movie fight where Dooku pretty much maneuvers defensively and looks for opportunity in pretty much all his fights, I wouldn't assume that the novelization based on an unfinished product and a reference guide would have better perceptions than I would.

Dooku's duel with Yoda was fairly short and the latter was clearly pulling his punches with the former. When they fought in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, despite the substantial benefits of a dark side nexus on Vjun {which diminishes the physical attributes of Jedi}, Dooku is still noted to perspire dramatically. Add to the fact the exhaustion Dooku experiences in the ROTS novelization and I'd say there's enough precedent for this to not be inconsistent.

Firstly, wow. Yoda was holding back in AotC? Really? What support is there for this?

Second, on Vjun, Dooku is not his normal calm, smug self. The dark side nexus on the planet highly effects people. For example, Whie starts to act manic and his powers manifest in odd ways. Dooku seems similarly effected. He becomes manic as well, frantic during the battle unlike in AotC where he's a master of himself.

I don't think the situation warrants "consistency" when clearly Dooku is affected both by Yoda's forgiveness (he's emotionally unstable and weak at the time immediately before the duel) and the atmosphere/nexus of Vjun is messing with him. His uncharacteristic sweating seems to me to be a result of the above factors just as much as the heated battle which Yoda was steadily winning. This is, IIRC, the only time we see Dooku having a shaking hand sporadically throughout.

Lastly, the RotS novelization as a source? That's a pretty shaky source, considering it reflects outdated and revised G-canon. GL has notoriously changed little things and big things in his movies without so much as a warning, so why do we assume that events which are internalized or explained away in the RotS novelization (but which aren't seen/implied in the final product) are valid?

There's no arguing around that fact either. The finished movie product is THE defining media to correctly and accurately establish those fight scenes. Using secondary media which has swaths of contradictory material is entirely foolish. Otherwise, Kit Fisto's head is on the desk, right? Oh wait, it's not. So why do we assume everything in the novelization is gospel because GL read it "line by line", when the same guy routinely changes the movies several times before they are edited?

George personally line-edited the novelization, but the conflict with the film puts it in a somewhat nebulous realm for me. My methodology requires a certain suspension of disbelief; so I can't just disregard what Lucas put in the novel. But I'd hesitate to declare it canon without doubt.

Han shot first.

Then GL declared "No, thou shalt not shoot first! I shall destroy the dreams of a generation with my whimsical ways!"

And SW canon was changed. And there was shit-all anyone could do about it.

GL's changed his mind multiple times. If you intend to argue the novelization as equal or perhaps better canon (I sincerely doubt that the latter is your intention, you just seem to be omitting the movie is a source rather than supplanting it) than the movie scenes which are the existing standard and finished product, then by all means, Han shot first, Luke Skywalker built a blue lightsaber, and Sidious ran away from Yoda in the battle in RotS. If you can't differentiate between "older, overruled media" and "highest recent canon media", there's no point in debating this further.

You have to consider that GL's idea of how Anakin got his scar is "he fell in the tub". He doesn't seriously consider all this on the level as say, us. He just makes shit up as he goes along.

If GL had his way, no post-OT material would exist, and likely no pre-PT material as well.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Water is actually a better medium for the transmission of sound than is air.
Jar Jar says to Anakin, underwater, in the 2nd episode, "What?? Meesa can't hear so good since"... I think he says "since meesa murder-bot." Whatever that means.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Jar Jar says to Anakin, underwater, in the 2nd episode, "What?? Meesa can't hear so good since"... I think he says "since meesa murder-bot." Whatever that means.

Hearing damage caused by being run over by a large tank?

Crono-degradation of killcircuits during the transit through the time vortex?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewwtznVkSxA

Opinions, ya'll?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewwtznVkSxA

Opinions, ya'll?

A more combat oriented Deus Ex clone. Looks cool though.

Wouldn't call it a clone, per say. The first Syndicate game came out in the early 90's.

That being said, it looks it'll either be amazing, or suck ass.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Firstly, wow. Yoda was holding back in AotC? Really? What support is there for this?

I actually agree with Gid. Yoda was holding back in AOTC.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I hardly think so. {Though it is interesting that Nai and you seem to react differently to that duel than Eminence, ares, and myself.}

May I point to the context of the duel?
Before the confrontation happens, Sidious clearly commands Dooku to capture Skywalker and exchange the Jedi for General Grievous. That being said, Dooku is not allowed to permanently harm / kill Anakin, which would automatically limit his options in a duel. In short: Dooku is holding back. Did anybody consider this fact so far? If yes, I haven't seen it.


Dooku noticeably struggled with Anakin throughout the duel and was visibly winded after incapacitating him, which in turn only occurred after the MagnaGuards struck him in tandem with a sustained discharge.

Even following your interpretation, that Dooku "struggled" with Anakin, the only thing to "proof" here, would be Anakin's greater physical strength in comparison to the Count. While that would not be much of a suprise, given that Skywalker has a mechanical arm strong enough to support the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand, it still would contradict established SW canon of the highest order:

If Dooku is capable of parrying swings from Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously while using only one hand, why would he struggle against a single one of that duo in a lightsaber fight?

Lastly, one might point to the end of the duel: Dooku almost casually disarms his opponent, after pretty much toying with the young Jedi (letting him attack from behind without his lightsaber ready). I seriously don't get, how you can perceive them as "equals" or "nearly equals" in the lightsaber department, after watching this. Anakin is just performing on one level with Ventress here and Dooku doesn't seem to have much more problems with subduing Anakin, than he did with doing the same to Opress.

I'm also not covinced by pointing to the scene in the RotS Novel. Dooku in the movie has just problems blocking Anakin's last series of attacks (and even that is a favorable interpretation for your case). But that happens when Anakin was already in "the Zone". So why would a "normal" duel generate the same results? Which, by the way, it doesn't, since Anakin ends up without a lightsaber in hand, disarmed by Dooku - and without direct interference of the MagnaGuards.

While I agree in principle, you have to understand... in that picture Dooku is not having a contest of strength with Anakin and Obi-Wan. If anything, he's actually manipulated them into a position where they can't use any of their physical strength.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
While I agree in principle, you have to understand... in that picture Dooku is not having a contest of strength with Anakin and Obi-Wan. If anything, he's actually manipulated them into a position where they can't use any of their physical strength.

The picture demonstrates Dooku's style of parry. He is a fencer, not a swordfighter. As such, he redirects the energy beyond the strikes of an opponent, usually sidewards. He does this to Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously. So how can one of them be too much for him to handle, especially because of strength, which would be wasted in attacks on Dooku anyway?

The point is not, that Dooku is stronger than the duo - which might be possible though, given that Yoda can carry a gun sized house around with his amped physical strength - the point is, that he can deal with the combined strength of the duo without much visible effort.

So why would he be hard pressed against one of them. Either Anakin is stronger than he was in their RotS duel, which would mean, that he was going into the zone, or Dooku was holding back / toying with the young Jedi.

As the command to capture Skywalker and not kill him was given, I'd still suggest that he was toying with Anakin. Hell. Why would he even engage him in a lightsaber duel in the first place, when he could just have commanded his magnaguards to attack (which were in the room from the beginning of the duel on) or utilized the force to subdue Anakin?

Okay, well I agree with the notion that Dooku is skilled enough of a duelist to nullify the duo's physical strength, as well as their individual physical strength.

um, the novel makes pretty clear that Anakin and Kenobi were pretending to be worse than they were at the beginning of the duel.

Yup, 'cause the novels interpretation of the fight hasn't been brought up like 3,000 times in this thread, as recently as just a couple pages back...

you think i'm reading every page of this thread? I read maybe the last ten posts. Everytime I check in there are 3 more pages...

That's because you're a villain

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewwtznVkSxA

Opinions, ya'll?

Shadowrun without the fantasy elements almost. I'm a little worried with how quick and jarred the FPS action seems though. We'll see. Maybe they'll give us a damn demo, which most game companies are above doing lately.

I actually agree with Gid. Yoda was holding back in AOTC.

Where is the support for this?

While I agree in principle, you have to understand... in that picture Dooku is not having a contest of strength with Anakin and Obi-Wan. If anything, he's actually manipulated them into a position where they can't use any of their physical strength.

Looking at it, Anakin has two hands on his saber and is in a position to apply pressure down on the Count's guard, using his upper body weight to help his leverage. Yet he's effectively immobilized. Obi-Wan's strike has less leverage, but it is still some added pressure.

um, the novel makes pretty clear that Anakin and Kenobi were pretending to be worse than they were at the beginning of the duel.

And the novel makes it pretty clear that Kit Fisto's head on is Palp's desk.