The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm getting really tired of this kind of argument. The question is not, whether one likes a source and its content or not. The question is, if a source does conflict with other (possible higher) forms of the canon, which is clearly the case with the RotS novel. You can't look at the fight in the movie, then take a look at the novel and say, that the novel interpretation of the fight is also valid, because it has next to nothing to do with the fight we actually see on screen.

In short: You can't believe that Fistos head is on the table and believe that it was never cut off at the same time (novel / movie version).

I never once advocated for such a system. I have only said that the parts of a duel that do not contradict the movie remain canon. Examples would include character's thoughts, mind sets, and scenes that take place during a cut on the movie like Obi-Wan's "trick" against Anakin. These remain canon while those that clearly cobtradict the film (Kit Fisto's decapitation as you point out) would not.

In fact an excerpt from that quote of yours:

"The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies."

If we "can't decide" what is canon, just because some people want to sacrifice logic for blind trust in the Bible some source material, we would need to rule out anything not clearly demonstrated on screen, which is exactly how LFL handles its own canon policy:

Interestingly, I am arguing the exact opposite of such a position.

In that regard, you can question everything not on screen, ranging from the Jedi faking forms against Dooku, to the existance of Anakin's "zone mode" through to the existance of Vaapad and the skill of the Jedi accompanying Mace Windu to Sidious office.

The problem therein lies with where do we stop? This quote applies to the full breadth of Star Wars, and comics such as TotJ, which are quite far away from the movies, may be these "decidedly abstract" stoies and therefore such characters would be inarguable. In fact, almost any non-movie medium could be "decidedly abstract". So if all these sources get a free pass, why are the novelizations questioned, even the information that does not contradict the films, despite the fact that they are "very accurate"? After all, according to Chris, the novelizations are far more accurate. Sure there are some mistakes, but numerous other sources have contradictions as well.

Utilizing such methods without second thought, we could also point to the "lightsaber ranking" system of Nick Gillard on the RotS DVD and conclude that Obi-Wan is equal to Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability and force mastery (both rated with an 8 by the stunt coordinator, if I'm not mistaken).

Please. Nick Gillard's lightsaber rankings have never been canonized. The similarities are virtually non-existent.

Originally posted by ares834
I never once advocated for such a system. I have only said that the parts of a duel that do not contradict the movie remain canon. Examples would include character's thoughts, mind sets, and scenes that take place during a cut on the movie like Obi-Wan's "trick" against Anakin. These remain canon while those that clearly cobtradict the film (Kit Fisto's decapitation as you point out) would not.

How are character thoughts not affected by a "rewriting" of a certain scene, when all events in which those happened are? Why would Dooku think about the fine lightsaber abilities of Obi-Wan and Anakin, when their moves that led to those thoughts never happened?

There is a scene in the novel (correct me, if I'm wrong) where Anakin throws a table or something like that at Dooku's back with the force, which leads to Dooku recognizing the force abilities of the young Jedi. Since that doesn't happen on screen, why would we suggest that Dooku's thoughts on the event are still canon? He had no reason to think about that in the first place, did he?

In fact an excerpt from that quote of yours:

"The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies."

I wonder why people always try to argue facts with quotes.
It is a fact, that the RotS novel is far away from being an accurate interpretation of the events we see on screen, at least when certain scenes are concerned, that have a total different representation within the movie. In terms of fight scenes, this may be the case because:

a) Lucas doesn't focus extensively on fights. There is a comment on the RotS DVD, where he essentially states that he usually writes "they fight" into a script and watches what his crew makes out of that.

b) Stover likewise didn't care too much about depicting the action accurately, but rather wanted to introduce us to the characters in a way that is beyond the movie (again - by his own admission).

So for the RotS novel, we'd have one guy not giving a damn about representation of the fight scenes line editing the work of another guy not giving a damn about the fight scenes. Small wonder, that they don't necessarily represent the action on screen in an accurate fashion.

Interestingly, I am arguing the exact opposite of such a position.

Yes. And it still doesn't make sense, because of the limitations you apply to the effects of contradictions.

The problem therein lies with where do we stop? This quote applies to the full breadth of Star Wars, and comics such as TotJ, which are quite far away from the movies, may be these "decidedly abstract" stoies and therefore such characters would be inarguable. In fact, almost any non-movie medium could be "decidedly abstract". So if all these sources get a free pass, why are the novelizations questioned, even the information that does not contradict the films, despite the fact that they are "very accurate"? After all, according to Chris, the novelizations are far more accurate. Sure there are some mistakes, but numerous other sources have contradictions as well.

The other sources get a "free pass", because we have no alternative depiction of the events in question. When we do, there is some amount of discussion happening almost naturally. This, for example, happened, when "I, Jedi" by Michael Stackpole was released, which retold a lot of the events happening in Kevin J. Andersons "Jedi Academy Trilogy" from a different point of view.

Please. Nick Gillard's lightsaber rankings have never been canonized. The similarities are virtually non-existent.

Actually, everything put on a DVD is considered to be canon, with the exception of older versions of scenes in the movie and / or deleted scenes. 😉

Originally posted by Borbarad

Actually, everything put on a DVD is considered to be canon, with the exception of older versions of scenes in the movie and / or deleted scenes. 😉

I dnt remember Gillard actually giving Dooku a rating. He said Obi-Wan was an 8, and that Anakin, Yoda, Mace, Sidious were all 9's, but Im sure he never rated Dooku.

Interestingly Gillard said the reason Dooku lost to Anakin is that he underestimated him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
How are character thoughts not affected by a "rewriting" of a certain scene, when all events in which those happened are? Why would Dooku think about the fine lightsaber abilities of Obi-Wan and Anakin, when their moves that led to those thoughts never happened?

There is a scene in the novel (correct me, if I'm wrong) where Anakin throws a table or something like that at Dooku's back with the force, which leads to Dooku recognizing the force abilities of the young Jedi. Since that doesn't happen on screen, why would we suggest that Dooku's thoughts on the event are still canon? He had no reason to think about that in the first place, did he?

And in such a case would be non-canon as they do contradict the movie.

I wonder why people always try to argue facts with quotes.
It is a fact, that the RotS novel is far away from being an accurate interpretation of the events we see on screen, at least when certain scenes are concerned, that have a total different representation within the movie. In terms of fight scenes, this may be the case because:

According to an arbiter of canon it is an accurate version of the events and should be treated as such. Ultimately, the discrepancies between the novel and movie are actually quite small.

The other sources get a "free pass", because we have no alternative depiction of the events in question. When we do, there is some amount of discussion happening almost naturally. This, for example, happened, when "I, Jedi" by Michael Stackpole was released, which retold a lot of the events happening in Kevin J. Andersons "Jedi Academy Trilogy" from a different point of view.

And yet we consider the Jedi Academy Trilogy canon when it does not contradict I, Jedi.

Actually, everything put on a DVD is considered to be canon, with the exception of older versions of scenes in the movie and / or deleted scenes. 😉

Interesting, I never knew that. I'm just wondering but do you have a source for this?

I have a friend who's currently working towards his Master's in Social Psych. As part of his degree, he does a lot of lab work. At the moment he's focusing on the nature of stereotypes.

One of his tests involved a NHPT test with a bunch of women aged 18-22. Basically, they had these women sit in two different rooms. In the first room, the walls were covered in posters of hot women, the kind of stuff you would find in a guy's room if he wasn't worried about being tasteless. The women didn't care too much about the objectifying posters.

Room number two, the walls were covered in science fiction and fantasy posters. Nerd shit. The test subjects felt extremely uncomfortable while in the room, as opposed to the room covered in posters that objectified them.

*sigh*

Veneficus, still haven't expanded upon your problem with Von Mises praxelogy.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Veneficus, still haven't expanded upon your problem with Von Mises praxelogy.

I dislike the fundamental paradigm of it's foundation (a priori axioms/synthetic judgements,) but I'll retract any negative statements until I actually finish reading Human Action (this may or may not happen, because I'm a lazy bastard and Von Mises is verbose.)

I'm actually kind of pissed no one ever mentions the Austrian School in Economics classes. It would be like taking ethics and ignoring utilitarianism and only teaching deontology. I didn't even know the Austrian School existed until I saw Von Mises name in the news and looked him up on Wikipedia.

It is the most fundamentally sound school of economics, but we've been riding keynes' nuts since the end of the international gold standard.

Borbarad
May I point to the context of the duel?
Before the confrontation happens, Sidious clearly commands Dooku to capture Skywalker and exchange the Jedi for General Grievous. That being said, Dooku is not allowed to permanently harm / kill Anakin, which would automatically limit his options in a duel. In short: [b]Dooku is holding back. Did anybody consider this fact so far? If yes, I haven't seen it.[/b]

First, Sidious's command is absolutely relevant and not lost on me. But I would like to take the time to remind you of my original post on this subject:

Me, page 1099
Between this and his reliance on the MagnaGuards, it seems as though the series is shaping up to portray Anakin and Dooku as something akin to equals. I may in fact have to retract my views on Anakin vs. Opress in lieu of this.

I qualified this very carefully so as to avoid making absolute claims on what was only at the time a preview clip {in which the order given by Sidious is not present}. You rejected this idea almost immediately out of hand, whereas I wasn't trying to argue that they were equals at all, only my interpretation of the direction that the show was headed.

Borbarad
Even following your interpretation, that Dooku "struggled" with Anakin, the only thing to "proof" here, would be Anakin's greater physical strength in comparison to the Count. While that would not be much of a suprise, given that Skywalker has a mechanical arm strong enough to support the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand, it still would contradict established SW canon of the highest order:

If Dooku is capable of parrying swings from Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously while using only one hand, why would he struggle against a single one of that duo in a lightsaber fight?

For reasons offered by Blaxican and how Dooku's last duel with Anakin concluded, I'm not sure I buy this. The fact that the Count was able to parry Skywalker and Kenobi's strike doesn't indicate equal or superior strength on Dooku's part. If that were so, why was Dooku unable to pull his hands free from Anakin's grip at the end of their confrontation? Furthermore, why do both the novelization and script mention that Dooku was weakening as the duel progressed?

The answer, to me, is simple. Dooku was able to use the Force to enhance his strength to sufficient levels initially in the ROTS duel to keep up with Obi-Wan and Anakin, but as the fight continues, he finds himself taxed considerably by the Force in order to combat Anakin's vastly superior Force reserves and physical strength. There is necessarily no contradiction here.

As to why Dooku was struggling with such strength in this duel, I would argue that Anakin's ferocity was unusually high, especially when one considers the endurance Anakin exhibited as the MagnaGuards assaulted him.

Borbarad
Lastly, one might point to the end of the duel: Dooku almost casually disarms his opponent, after pretty much toying with the young Jedi (letting him attack from behind without his lightsaber ready).

Dooku disarmed Anakin after attacking in tandem with the MagnaGuards. Why would I perceive the disarming of him as casual, given that fact?

Borbarad
I seriously don't get, how you can perceive them as "equals" or "nearly equals" in the lightsaber department, after watching this. Anakin is just performing on one level with Ventress here and Dooku doesn't seem to have much more problems with subduing Anakin, than he did with doing the same to Opress.

Just as you interpreted a lack of effort on Dooku's part when disarming Anakin, I interpret Dooku's highly aggressive attacks, the circumstances surrounding the saber locks, his use of the MagnaGuards, and his post-battle panting to be indicative of a man who was struggling with his quarry.

Borbarad
I'm also not covinced by pointing to the scene in the RotS Novel. Dooku in the movie has just problems blocking Anakin's last series of attacks (and even that is a favorable interpretation for your case). But that happens when Anakin was already in "the Zone". So why would a "normal" duel generate the same results?

Who's to say that this duel was "normal"? I'd argue that Anakin was tapping into his rage and ferocity to a notable extent.

Borbarad
Which, by the way, it doesn't, since Anakin ends up without a lightsaber in hand, disarmed by Dooku - and without direct interference of the MagnaGuards.

The MagnaGuards attacked Anakin only seconds before, forcing him to fend off their attacks and those of Dooku's. Why shouldn't we believe that this radical reorientation might have made it easier for the Count to disarm him? If Dooku weren't struggling and could have ended the duel whenever he saw fit, why didn't he disarm him sooner?

YouTube video

he is so badass omg

FUUUUUUUUUCK!

I just read a really well written Azutara fanfic that ended in the worst possible way. Katara did just about the biggest dick move she could possibly have done and they split up with the author saying the stories over. And it was so beautiful until then. Now I'm really goddamn depressed and just fuuck. ;_;

;_; x 100

Originally posted by Nephthys
FUUUUUUUUUCK!

I just read a really well written Azutara fanfic that ended in the worst possible way. Katara did just about the biggest dick move she could possibly have done and they split up with the author saying the stories over. And it was so beautiful until then. Now I'm really goddamn depressed and just fuuck. ;_;

;_; x 100

In what possible circumstance would Katara get together with Azula?

I hate slash fics.

Azula completely regresses after her defeat and after a while Katara visits and tries to help her recover. Katara likes helping people remember. You should read the first fic, its really beautiful and its not slashy, just friendship and comfort. The sequel has a lot of groundwork put in therefore for a relationship to work. But the sequel has a really shitty ending so whatever. >: [

They're older in the fic obviously. Azulas been in the mental institution for a few years. Besides, Aang and Katara got together when Aang was like 13. Puke.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Azula completely regresses after her defeat and after a while Katara visits and tries to help her recover. Katara likes helping people remember. You should read the first fic, its really beautiful. The sequel has a really shitty ending. >: [

They're older in the fic obviously. Azulas been in the mental institution for a few years. Besides, Aang and Katara got together when Aang was like 13.

I typed up a few paragraphs about why this sounded dumb and was a prime example of why I dislike slash fics, but I think I'm just going to settle for a "I'll pass."

Shipping, slash, RLF . . . they can all go into some dark corner and die.

You have no soul.

I actually read a Harry Potter/Avatar (blue people) crossover where the Muggles are parasites and they end up killing Gaia and then Harry flees to Pandora.

The author has one with the same premise, except Harry goes back in time to exterminate the Muggles. (Think Mandrakes inserted into subway systems.)

Both are unfinished (FFFFFFFFUUUUCK!) but still fun. And there is this really slashy FMA/HP xover that I'm embarrassed to have read that I think you'd like. PM me if you care.

Spoiler:
I have more if you want them. Links on request*.

*I'm actually swamped, so I may not respond very quickly. TEN PAGES DUE WEDNESDAY WELP LOOKS LIKE IT'S TIME TO START.

Edit:@Vene:

Originally posted by Lucius
I typed up a few paragraphs about why this sounded dumb and was a prime example of why I dislike slash fics, but I think I'm just going to settle for a "I'll pass."

Shipping, slash, RLF . . . they can all go into some dark corner and die.

I like AU, and if Slash is the price then I'm willing to pay it. I rarely read stories purely for slash, but I can't imagine it being enough to stop me reading.

snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!

Originally posted by Zampanó
I actually read a Harry Potter/Avatar (blue people) crossover where the Muggles are parasites and they end up killing Gaia and then Harry flees to Pandora.

The author has one with the same premise, except Harry goes back in time to exterminate the Muggles. (Think Mandrakes inserted into subway systems.)

Both are unfinished (FFFFFFFFUUUUCK!) but still fun. And there is this really slashy FMA/HP xover that I'm embarrassed to have read that I think you'd like. PM me if you care.

Spoiler:
I have more if you want them. Links on request*.

*I'm actually swamped, so I may not respond very quickly. TEN PAGES DUE WEDNESDAY WELP LOOKS LIKE IT'S TIME TO START.

No thanks. I'm kinda bummed now. I think I'll just watch some Twin Peaks or MLP and go to bed.

🙁

Edit:@Vene:

I like AU, and if Slash is the price then I'm willing to pay it. I rarely read stories purely for slash, but I can't imagine it being enough to stop me reading.

Christ, red text on a dark gray background . . .

I find most slash to be so absurd I can't overlook it. And quite frankly, a lot of it is disturbing. It's like people have fetishes they want to express using canon characters.

Aw, but its fun! Sometimes its ok to be absurd. I only read yuri fics, so I guess the fetishes stuff might be true. I don't know if yuri counts as a fetish though. Unless you're talking about the more 'adult' stuff, in which case, well duh!

Though I once read an Azula/Ursa fic which was pretty good....