Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Where is the support for this?
Well, Yoda did not wish to slay his "old Padawan". He had a personal connection with Dooku and it's obvious he wanted to capture, not kill, him to end the conflict and discover why he had fallen to the Dark Side. If Yoda intended on finishing Dooku, he definitely would have had a more killer mindset and came in with a stronger assault. You don’t see Sidious or Yoda speaking to each other when they are fighting because they are hell-bent on slaying one another. However, Yoda and Dooku engage in dialogue throughout their duel because Dooku was Yoda’s Padawan and Yoda held a unique bond with him.
EDIT: Also, during the 'Force exchange,' Yoda wasn't the aggressor. He didn't engage in any offensive TK against the Count. This supports the fact that he was holding back against Dooku.
the point is, that he can deal with the combined strength of the duo without much visible effort.
Exactly, "visible" being the key word here. He was struggling, hell he was struggling with Skywalker before he entered the z0ne.
Originally posted by Borbarad
So why would he be hard pressed against one of them. Either Anakin is stronger than he was in their RotS duel, which would mean, that he was going into the zone, or Dooku was holding back / toying with the young Jedi.
Why would he not? He was struggling against both of them and he was struggling against Anakin mono e mono. Unless, you believe he intentionally let Skywalker kick him in the face. But yes, I would tend to agree that Dooku wasn't giving it his all (at least at first) but that's because he had magnaguard helping him.
As the command to capture Skywalker and not kill him was given, I'd still suggest that he was toying with Anakin. Hell. Why would he even engage him in a lightsaber duel in the first place, when he could just have commanded his magnaguards to attack (which were in the room from the beginning of the duel on) or utilized the force to subdue Anakin?
There is no reason to believe that Dooku could have subdued Anakin with the force in the beginning. Otherwise, why did he not do this to Anakin during their battle on Tattoine? Furthermore, look at how much it took out of him to subdue Anakin after he was weaponless and brought to his knees by the four Magnaguards.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And the novel makes it pretty clear that Kit Fisto's head on is Palp's desk.
And is thus non-canon as it clearly contradicts what is shown in film. However, if the novel contradicts one's own interpretation of a fight I would side with the novel as it is still considered canon while one's interpretation is not.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Someone has a problem with the Austrian School.
If the basis for the school is a bunch of "axioms" on human behavior determined a priori then yes, I do have a problem with the school. Rejecting empirical studies in favor of extrapolations based off a core group of deductively reasoned axioms flies in the face of decades of developments in the humanities.
Somehow I doubt that though, since Economics as a whole hasn't quite cought up with psychology and her cousins.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Can you be more specific? Or rather, it sounds like you have a problem with their fundamentals. I'm a huge fan of the school as I think it is fundamentally superior to both classical economics as well as the shitstain Keynesian economics.
To be honest I don't know enough about the Austrian school to take a stance against it. I've just been reading up on Von Mises in particular (is name keeps getting mentioned of late) and I don't like his Praxelogy.
That being said, when it comes to Economics, I don't think any school has a handle on human behavior. Like I remember taking a 400 level Econ class (Economics of Poverty and Discrimination) last year and the reasons for why humans did things was reduced to "rational self interest" and that people would act consistently in what they craved. And from this, we had all these fancy graphs that could predict everything.
What kind of crap is that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_school_of_economics
Not following why you don't like his praxelogy though. I pretty much agree with the first paragraph of the entry. You'll have to elaborate some more.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Well, Yoda did not wish to slay his "old Padawan". He had a personal connection with Dooku and it's obvious he wanted to capture, not kill, him to end the conflict and discover why he had fallen to the Dark Side. If Yoda intended on finishing Dooku, he definitely would have had a more killer mindset and came in with a stronger assault. You don’t see Sidious or Yoda speaking to each other when they are fighting because they are hell-bent on slaying one another. However, Yoda and Dooku engage in dialogue throughout their duel because Dooku was Yoda’s Padawan and Yoda held a unique bond with him.EDIT: Also, during the 'Force exchange,' Yoda wasn't the aggressor. He didn't engage in any offensive TK against the Count. This supports the fact that he was holding back against Dooku.
If I were to argue Yoda's intent based solely on "Dark Rendezvous", then yeah, I might agree with your assessment. But strictly speaking, the movie itself does not lend us any evidence of Yoda holding back. Exchanging dialogue isn't conclusive in itself; Anakin and Obi-Wan exchanged dialogue and look how that ended up. Furthermore, Yoda does not say "Wound you only, I must" nor does he attempt to disarm Dooku with the Force/saber (Considering he can TK Ventress into submission and disarm Sidious in saber combat, overcoming Dooku shouldn't be outside the realm of possible).
your point?
Clearly, Kit Fisto's head wasn't on the desk. Non-canon is non-canon. Move along.
And is thus non-canon as it clearly contradicts what is shown in film. However, if the novel contradicts one's own interpretation of a fight I would side with the novel as it is still considered canon while one's interpretation is not.
I don't understand this mindset at all.
The novelization which was based on versions of the fight which were drastically changed in the final product (which is THE defining canon for SW) is somehow better than us... examining and drawing conclusions from the actual final fights?
How is this sensible? For all we know, Stover was working with a barebones script in front of him (an outdated one at that), and he was told to embellish it as he saw fit, with GL skimming over it before deciding to go ahead and rampantly change details anyways (probably while putting a stop order on Stover's check).
Assuming that novelization interpretation which is NOT based on the fights we actually see (which are ACTUALLY CANON) is more valid than our interpretations on actual canon material is ridiculous. That's like arguing Yoda versus Sidious, but only using the deleted scenes from the Blu-ray collection instead of the actual fight, and then throwing in references from the Complete Visual Dictionary and perhaps a forum post from GL taken way out of context.
Wait, that has already happened at KMC.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't understand this mindset at all.The novelization which was based on versions of the fight which were drastically changed in the final product (which is THE defining canon for SW) is somehow better than us... examining and drawing conclusions from the actual final fights?
I'll explain.
How is this sensible? For all we know, Stover was working with a barebones script in front of him (an outdated one at that), and he was told to embellish it as he saw fit, with GL skimming over it before deciding to go ahead and rampantly change details anyways (probably while putting a stop order on Stover's check).
True, it doesn't overrule Lucas's films, I never once said it has. However, it is still C-canon and unless something from T or G-canon contradicts it, it's canon.
Assuming that novelization interpretation which is NOT based on the fights we actually see (which are ACTUALLY CANON) is more valid than our interpretations on actual canon material is ridiculous. That's like arguing Yoda versus Sidious, but only using the deleted scenes from the Blu-ray collection instead of the actual fight, and then throwing in references from the Complete Visual Dictionary and perhaps a forum post from GL taken way out of context
It's not similar at all. The novelization is C-canon no matter how vehemently you don't believe it is while your interpretation and mine as well are not. Afterall, to me it doesn;t seem that Anakin goes into any z0ne as his demeanor remains the same during the entire duel, however my interpretation contradicts the book and is therefore not correct. Now sure, not everything in the Dooku/Anakin duel is canon, however much of it is. And we don't get to pick and choose what parts that don't contradict the films are canon and what isn't (for example Anakin going into the z0ne to defeat Dooku but saying that Anakin giving him a difficult fight prior to that is non-canon).
Originally posted by truejedi
um, the novel makes pretty clear that Anakin and Kenobi were pretending to be worse than they were at the beginning of the duel.
The novel also makes pretty clear, that they were using their uber teamwork to almost kill Dooku at multiple ocassions throughout the duel. The novel also makes clear, that the furniture in the room gets thrown around and cut into pieces. The novel makes a lot of things clear that are totally not present in the final version of the fight.
Futhermore it is totally illogical for them to try some fake forms on Dooku provided the dozens of occassion on which they confronted him in lightsaber duels, unless you want to tell me that they did always fake forms in those, because of not wanting to defeat Dooku at all. Does that sound like an idea that makes sense to you?
Possible, that once made sense - before Dooku was shown to recognize lightsaber forms in split seconds, before teaching them all to Grievous, before the concept of the animated series was conceived, where the two Jedi meet the Sith Lord in combat in every third episode (little exeggeration there). At present date, such notion doesn't make sense at all.
@ares834
Originally posted by ares834
It's not similar at all. The novelization is C-canon no matter how vehemently you don't believe it is while your interpretation and mine as well are not. Afterall, to me it doesn;t seem that Anakin goes into any z0ne as his demeanor remains the same during the entire duel, however my interpretation contradicts the book and is therefore not correct. Now sure, not everything in the Dooku/Anakin duel is canon, however much of it is. And we don't get to pick and choose what parts that don't contradict the films are canon and what isn't (for example Anakin going into the z0ne to defeat Dooku but saying that Anakin giving him a difficult fight prior to that is non-canon).
I'm getting really tired of this kind of argument. The question is not, whether one likes a source and its content or not. The question is, if a source does conflict with other (possible higher) forms of the canon, which is clearly the case with the RotS novel. You can't look at the fight in the movie, then take a look at the novel and say, that the novel interpretation of the fight is also valid, because it has next to nothing to do with the fight we actually see on screen.
In short: You can't believe that Fistos head is on the table and believe that it was never cut off at the same time (novel / movie version).
If we "can't decide" what is canon, just because some people want to sacrifice logic for blind trust in the Bible some source material, we would need to rule out anything not clearly demonstrated on screen, which is exactly how LFL handles its own canon policy:
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves — and only the films." - Chris Cherasi / Steve Sansweet, "Ask the Jedi Council", 2001.
That being said, anything not on screen is not absolute canon, but can be chalked up to the personal interpretation of the author, which can or can not be correct:
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play.[...]The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract." - Chris Cherasi / Steve Sansweet, "Ask the Jedi Council", 2001.
In that regard, you can question everything not on screen, ranging from the Jedi faking forms against Dooku, to the existance of Anakin's "zone mode" through to the existance of Vaapad and the skill of the Jedi accompanying Mace Windu to Sidious office.
To a certain extend, such arguments make sense and trying to beat them to death with reference to a source that is just an interpretation of absolute canon and demonstrably wrong on certain instances, is complete nonsense. Utilizing such methods without second thought, we could also point to the "lightsaber ranking" system of Nick Gillard on the RotS DVD and conclude that Obi-Wan is equal to Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability and force mastery (both rated with an 8 by the stunt coordinator, if I'm not mistaken).