The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

He would probably love to.

But there, you've unknowingly touched on one of Shore's many facets. If you had a comprehensive understanding of the character, you'd see that this sort of behavior sets him apart from most TV characters.

Spoiler:
As Z. alludes to, he's an uncommonly moral lawyer-- though this conflicts with his extraordinarily unethical legal tactics. He's a generous, kind-hearted man {these traits are evident throughout the series} who routinely bullies, harasses, threatens, and manipulates those around him in order to seek affirmation for his self-loathing narcissism.

The Practice is from the 90s and tries too hard to be edgy, Neph. You'd like Boston Legal, I think. Alan has turned into a lovable miscreant, sexually offensive but firmly and unimpeachably moral.

Depends on your definition of 'edgy'. Shore was much more unethical on The Practice, to be sure, but he had his zingers and doozies on Boston Legal as well.

Spoiler:
I remember him hiring two thugs to break into an unscrupulous guardian's apartment and binding him to a chair, with Shore threatening to repeat this sort of conduct unless said guardian agreed to Shore's legal terms.

But anyway, I'm with Zamp in that I'd be absolutely shellshocked if you disliked Boston Legal. This is in your wheelhouse.

Well I'm watching Twin Peaks atm and my course just started up again, last year, heavy workload, so I guess we'll never know.

Escape is the guy who claims to have been fooled by his girlfriend into reading the entire Twilight series. That's like slipping, falling, and inadvertently having sex with a complete stranger in a shopping mall who happens to be wearing an orange prison jumpsuit; sometimes, there's no excuse good enough.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
This is fairly true.

C wut I did thar?

You know, bigotry isn't inherently a bad thing. Neither is racism, for that matter.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Escape is the guy who claims to have been fooled by his girlfriend into reading the entire Twilight series. That's like slipping, falling, and inadvertently having sex with a complete stranger in a shopping mall who happens to be wearing an orange prison jumpsuit; sometimes, there's no excuse good enough.

😆

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
First, Sidious's command is absolutely relevant and not lost on me.

Hence why you introduced it to the review of the full fight and pointed to its possible effect on the confrontation, modifying your previous judgement of the scene...?

I qualified this very carefully so as to avoid making absolute claims on what was only at the time a preview clip {in which the order given by Sidious is not present}. You rejected this idea almost immediately out of hand, whereas I wasn't trying to argue that they were equals at all, only my interpretation of the direction that the show was headed.

Yes. I rejected the idea almost immediately. Out of hand? Hardly. You shouldn't presume that we both possess the same knowledge, because that's cleary not the case.

And your interpretation was flawed - which I told you from the beginning, because you tried to judge a scene devoid of context, according to your vision how it should develop. Now, when the final product establishs context that not only forces Dooku to hold back against his opponent to a certain extend and inserts instances in which he clearly toys with Skywalker, you're accepting this and reconsider your opinion still try to defend your judgement based on the preview. I wonder, what this is good for.

For reasons offered by Blaxican and how Dooku's last duel with Anakin concluded, I'm not sure I buy this. The fact that the Count was able to parry Skywalker and Kenobi's strike doesn't indicate equal or superior strength on Dooku's part. If that were so, why was Dooku unable to pull his hands free from Anakin's grip at the end of their confrontation?

Thanks for repeating my explanation, parrot Gideon. I would encourage you to read all of my postings, instead of repeating criticism, that I have already answered.

That being said, I can't agree with your last sentence at all. Dooku totally has the strength, to engage with Anakin in a prolonged saber-lock, while lecturing the young Jedi on his emotions in their RotS duel. So before Anakin goes into "zone mode", there isn't much problem for Dooku to handle his strength - already increased due to his mechanical arm.

But I wouldn't attribute that final move to Skywalkers superior strength anyway, but the lack of time for the Count to counter (tehehe) the move. There is a total of six frames passing between Anakin grabbing the Sith Lords hand and the hands being removed, giving Dooku about 0.25 seconds time to react and break free. Which he doesn't. He even keeps both hands to his lightsaber hilt, sacrificing the chance to save at least one of them. Seems so, as if he was surprised by Anakins rather unorthodox manouver, rather than not being able to react because Anakin overpowered him strength-wise.

Furthermore, why do both the novelization and script mention that Dooku was weakening as the duel progressed?

Because this is what usually happens when you engage in lightsaber duels: You're getting tired. If I remember correctly, this statement is put there, to contrast Anakin's condition (who is graced with unlimited stamina and gets stronger through-out the duel). So what is your point here, exactly? Do you want to suggest that Dooku lost some muscle mass or running out of force energy to aid his natural strength?

The answer, to me, is simple. Dooku was able to use the Force to enhance his strength to sufficient levels initially in the ROTS duel to keep up with Obi-Wan and Anakin, but as the fight continues, he finds himself taxed considerably by the Force in order to combat Anakin's vastly superior Force reserves and physical strength. There is necessarily no contradiction here.

If we just focus on that special scene, there is no necessary contradiction. This, however, does arise, when we take the previous engagements into consideration, take a look at Kenobi's later duel with Anakin and also look at further information given, regarding the characters.

Both Dooku and Kenobi utilize defensive styles, that are coined by high efficiency. Now lets just have a look at the encounter at the end of Attack of the Clones. Dooku's efficient style allows him to engage in a confrontation with Kenobi (after removing Anakin from the duel), then, after taking Kenobi out, engaing in a duel with Anakin, after which he does still have power reserves to duke it out with Yoda for a short period of time.

The RotS duel, even if taking into consideration that Dooku engages two opponents at once, is shorter than his previous confrontations with Kenobi and Skywalker. Furthermore does he seem to be more "tired" after engaging Anakin in AotC (heavy sigh / breathing), than he appears to be before their last exchange of strikes during the RotS duel. This is why the idea that Dooku was somehow tired out at that point already, doesn't convince me.

Now if you take Obi-Wan's duel with Anakin into consideration, that idea even becomes more unlikely to me. If Dooku is ripe for getting defeated after less than a minute of engagement with Anakin, how can Kenobi survive the duel against an enraged Anakin for such a so much longer time - and in fact even win it?

While I realize the difference in Anakin's shape between those two duels, one would still need to assume that some general characteristics still apply to the young Jedi, even though he is in a different mental condition. He should still possess a strength advantage (mechanical arm) in comparison to Kenobi, he should still have unlimited stamina (and in fact, he doesn't seem to get tired).

Yet, Anakin doens't win that duel. Why? His emotional condition? I don't see how that made him "weaker" (strength wise) or less skilled with a lightsaber. Anakin lost, because he wasn't capable of surprising the defensive fighting Kenobi, who knew him inside out, and because he was unable to accept, that he couldn't overcome his master under any circumstances.

That being said, there is no other explanation for Anakin winning in RotS, other than the fact that he surprised Dooku with an unorthodox and risky manouver. Losing to strength or because of getting tired simple doesn't make sense in light of Dooku's fighting style and the previous and later involvement of Anakin in duels.

As to why Dooku was struggling with such strength in this duel, I would argue that Anakin's ferocity was unusually high, especially when one considers the endurance Anakin exhibited as the MagnaGuards assaulted him.

I don't see any special endurance there - for a Jedi. I likewise don't see any indicative of a special ferocity on Anakin's part, before he moves to the last stage of the duel at least.

Dooku disarmed Anakin after attacking in tandem with the MagnaGuards. Why would I perceive the disarming of him as casual, given that fact?

In tandem with the MagnaGuards? Seriously?

I don't see any MagnaGuard interacting in that specific moment. Anakin swings at Dooku with no MagnaGuard even close to them, and the next thing we see is Anakins lightsaber on the ground. That was the result of Dooku's still superior skill, which he has already demonstrated moments before, by basically avoiding Anakin in close quarters, without even igniting his weapon.

Just as you interpreted a lack of effort on Dooku's part when disarming Anakin, I interpret Dooku's highly aggressive attacks, the circumstances surrounding the saber locks, his use of the MagnaGuards, and his post-battle panting to be indicative of a man who was struggling with his quarry.

Dooku is already angry when he starts the duel. If anything, he seems to get calmer after their intial trade of blows.
The "circumstances of the saber lock"? You mean the supposed lack of arm movement on Anakin's part in the second lock, when we don't even see his arms?
Panting? His stronger breathing, of which nothing seen during their lightsaber fight or while he uses the force on Anakin? The same breathing we have already seen after he did defeat Skywalker in AotC. Do you want to introduce the idea now, that even back then, padawan Skywalker was more demanding for Dooku than his later confrontation with Yoda?

Who's to say that this duel was "normal"? I'd argue that Anakin was tapping into his rage and ferocity to a notable extent.

The rage that makes him go into zone mode, or that which turns him to a victim of Kenobi?

The MagnaGuards attacked Anakin only seconds before, forcing him to fend off their attacks and those of Dooku's. Why shouldn't we believe that this radical reorientation might have made it easier for the Count to disarm him? If Dooku weren't struggling and could have ended the duel whenever he saw fit, why didn't he disarm him sooner?

You do realize, that the MagnaGuards weren't attacking Anakin at all. Dooku glances over Anakin's shoulder and as a result, Anakin throws himself at the MagnaGuards, who weren't about to attack him at all. Then the Guards keep swarming around, not making a move at Anakin, who tries a wide swing at Dooku, to which Dooku reacts by adding addional momentum to the swing with his own blade, so that Anakin loses his weapon.

And the "why didn't he...?" kind of question is kind of moot. Why did he engage in a duel at all? Why, if he struggled in the first part, didn't he use the MagnaGuards as distraction to simple force pwn the Jedi, as he does in the end of the duel? Instead, he lets him get into close quarter combat again after he supposely struggled with him? Why? Either Dooku is tired of his life and wants to die, and therefore lets Skywalker - against whom he has struggled before - get close again to accist him in suicide.

Or, and that appears to be more likely, Dooku was toying with his prey. Becuase, you see, the only time in the duel in which Dooku looks surprised, is when Anakin breaks free from the four MagnaGuards not during their previous lightsaber duel - which should have been the case if Anakin proved to be more stronger than Dooku thought he was.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Escape is the guy who claims to have been fooled by his girlfriend into reading the entire Twilight series. That's like slipping, falling, and inadvertently having sex with a complete stranger in a shopping mall who happens to be wearing an orange prison jumpsuit; sometimes, there's no excuse good enough.

C wut I did thar?

Originally posted by Borbarad

That being said, there is no other explanation for Anakin winning in RotS, other than the fact that he surprised Dooku with an unorthodox and risky manouver. Losing to strength or because of getting tired simple doesn't make sense in light of Dooku's fighting style and the previous and later involvement of Anakin in duels.

I think sometimes we can over analyze and miss the basic message of the scene.

I seriously doubt the message Lucas was intending to give in that scene was that Anakin won due to a surprise unorthodox manouver. You said yourself a few pages back that usually all Lucas has in his script is "they fight".

I think its clear that scene was Lucas showing us how powerful Skywalker has become by this point. Although I do admit they clearly showed Dooku's shocked look on his face. But I think that was more of a surprise at being defeated and having underestimated how powerful his opponent was.

Although this is all discussing who is more powerful in a fencing match. I do think in a rematch if Count Dooku went all out with the Force that he could maybe still defeat ROTS "Zone" Anakin.

Originally posted by Borbarad

The rage that makes him go into zone mode, or that which turns him to a victim of Kenobi?

This is an excellent point that I brought up in the Opress vs Obi-Wan thread. What I said was that this proves an opponent giving into his rage is no excuse to lose to him, because without that clear focus in using that rage it doesn't necessarily make the opponent a better fighter.

But look one thing is clear. There is a HUGE difference between Obi-Wan and Dooku. The fact that Anakin Overpowered Dooku, but could not do the same to someone well below Dooku shows there was a obviously a HUGE difference in Skywalker's combat effectivness in those 2 fights.

SM
Escape is the guy who claims to have been fooled by his girlfriend into reading the entire Twilight series.

I wasn't tricked, I was asked. uhuh

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I wasn't tricked, I was asked. uhuh

By your girlfriend, or the escaped con at the mall?

yes

Some prickhole tried to steal my laptop at school today. I picked up a chair in the classroom and threatened to beat him to a bloody pulp if he didn't stay the fuck away from my stuff.

Wow, that's a convicted felon in the making.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
yes

Was he black?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He just... what... tried to pick it up and walk away with it, in broad daylight?

Was he black?

He thought I had left the room (I was heading to use the rest room) but as I was leaving I saw him in the corner of my eye moving towards my stuff. I watched as he started pawing around through my bag. I walked in and confronted him about it . . . with a chair and Newton's laws of motion at my side.

In retrospect that was a really bad slip on my part, I almost never leave my
stuff alone, but the bathroom was right outside and I needed to piss.

EDIT - No he wasn't black, he was a wigger.

wut