Wiggers inspire deep hatred within me as well. 😐
Alan Shore's non-flamboyant epic closing. Law & Order can't touch this shit.
Originally posted by Lucius
He thought I had left the room (I was heading to use the rest room) but as I was leaving I saw him in the corner of my eye moving towards my stuff. I watched as he started pawing around through my bag. I walked in and confronted him about it . . . with a chair and Newton's laws of motion at my side.In retrospect that was a really bad slip on my part, I almost never leave my
stuff alone, but the bathroom was right outside and I needed to piss.EDIT - No he wasn't black, he was a wigger.
You know, Steve Jobs was an *******. Everyone who knew him personally has said that he was an *******, was an egomaniac of the highest proportion, laughed at things like charity and Philanthropy, and was... really... interested only in making a shit ton of cash.
So, while I respect the man's initiative and creative genius, I can't help but question all the people out there who are now regarding the man as if he was a saint.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You know, Steve Jobs was an *******. Everyone who knew him personally has said that he was an *******, was an egomaniac of the highest proportion, laughed at things like charity and Philanthropy, and was... really... interested only in making a shit ton of cash.So, while I respect the man's initiative and creative genius, I can't help but question all the people out there who are now regarding the man as if he was a saint.
^This.
Also, this:
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Originally posted by Dr McBeefingtonHey if you recall, I;m the only one allowed to wield a shank around here. **** me if that was my laptop I woulda taken to him with that chair without pause.
I think you have some anger issues you need to work out. Good thing you didn't have a prison shank or anything else but knowing you, you would have been able to make one out of the contents of your backpack or pockets.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think sometimes we can over analyze and miss the basic message of the scene.I seriously doubt the message Lucas was intending to give in that scene was that Anakin won due to a surprise unorthodox manouver. You said yourself a few pages back that usually all Lucas has in his script is "they fight".
I think its clear that scene was Lucas showing us how powerful Skywalker has become by this point. Although I do admit they clearly showed Dooku's shocked look on his face. But I think that was more of a surprise at being defeated and having underestimated how powerful his opponent was.
One can also miss the basic message of a scene, without much analyzing at all. You have to see this from the perspective of George Lucas. Why would you, as a storyteller, be concerned about the relative powerlevels of your characters at all? You don't have to put them against eachother in versus fights, and when you do, you can simple decide who wins, rather than having to explain it in a detailed and logical fashion. This is, why the compareably weak hero can always defeat the ridiculously powerful bad guy in every kind of narration.
That being said, I think the motivation for Lucas in this scene can be summoned by this:
1) Making way for Anakin to become the new Sith apprentice, because that was required storywise (since he must become Darth Vader somehow).
2) Building up a convincing scenario for Anakin slowly succumbing to the power of the Dark Side. Murdering Dooku is the first step on that journey in RotS and mirrors the events we've seen in AotC - Anakin is out for revenge and utilizes his anger in order to kill people.
If Lucas had really wanted to demonstrate Anakin's superiority over Dooku, there would have been a lot more clear (and convincing) methods to do so. The incident leading to the recent discussion about Opress would have qualified as template: Letting Anakin defeat Dooku with an incredible powerful force manouver would have done the job. Instead, Lucas gave us the scene as it is in the movie: Anakin utilizing a risky manouver to defeat Dooku.
Although this is all discussing who is more powerful in a fencing match. I do think in a rematch if Count Dooku went all out with the Force that he could maybe still defeat ROTS "Zone" Anakin.
I'm not entirely sure about that. Following the depiction of their duel in the novel, Anakin potential is partitially unleashed, allowing him to simply decide to win the duel, negating Dooku's superior command of the force and his superior skill and experience.
This is an excellent point that I brought up in the Opress vs Obi-Wan thread. What I said was that this proves an opponent giving into his rage is no excuse to lose to him, because without that clear focus in using that rage it doesn't necessarily make the opponent a better fighter.
Rage can give opponents a temporary burst of skill. This is the case, for example, in the duel between Maul and Obi-Wan after the Sith Lord has stabbed Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan charges him, at least angered, drives the Sith Lord back and even manages to damage Mauls weapons. This, while it's rather clear that Kenobi is the overall lesser duellist of the two. Yet, he mometarily gained an advantage over Maul. The same can be observed in a scene, in which Sidious tests Maul. The younger Sith, injured and lacking sleep, being hunted by killer droids for several weeks, gets angry and Sidious is hard pressed to defend himself against his own apprentice. When the surge of anger leaves Maul, just seconds after this, Sidious instantly demonstrates his superior mastery of the lightsaber to his apprentice.
So rage can be a factor in duels, because it can give a temporary advantage. That being said: This could be the reason for Anakin winning the duel against Dooku, but it doesn't have to be the reason for that - following the novel, which has Anakin staying calm while utilizing his darker emotions.
But look one thing is clear. There is a HUGE difference between Obi-Wan and Dooku. The fact that Anakin Overpowered Dooku, but could not do the same to someone well below Dooku shows there was a obviously a HUGE difference in Skywalker's combat effectivness in those 2 fights.
To be fair: Dooku didn't outduel Kenobi, but leveled him with superior force mastery. I'm not entirely sure that Dooku could beat RotS Kenobi in a fight in which both would be limited to their skill with a lightsaber. Dooku's style relies upon counter strikes to be efficient, with the problem being, that Kenobi doesn't really focus on attacking his opponents, but utilizes an even more defensive form. And, if the RotS novel is to be believed, he is capable of blocking more than 20 hits on his defense per second (during his duel with Grievous).
That might have been the deciding factor in the duel between him and Anakin: He knew Anakin's unconventional manouvers, and could defend himself against that, where Dooku failed to do the same. Yet, Anakin didn't have any chance to defeat Kenobi using offensive force attacks - like Dooku did.
Skywalkers emotional state might have contributed to his loss and possible it was even the main factor. Yet, I do think that Kenobis knowledge of Anakin's fighting style, thinking and the defensive abilities of the Jedi Master also contributed to Skywalkers defeat. Chalking it all up to Anakin's emotional problems would be underestimating Kenobi's qualities.
Good point about Obi-Wan and Maul with the rage issue. I'd completely forgotten about that. Of course, Darth power has consistently shown me that he refuses to admit rage = temporary burst of power because it doesn't help his pro-Opress argument in the other thread. I don't expect you'll get much further.
I'm not entirely sure that Dooku could beat RotS Kenobi in a fight in which both would be limited to their skill with a lightsaber. Dooku's style relies upon counter strikes to be efficient, with the problem being, that Kenobi doesn't really focus on attacking his opponents, but utilizes an even more defensive form. And, if the RotS novel is to be believed, he is capable of blocking more than 20 hits on his defense per second (during his duel with Grievous).
It seems to me that in both movies, Obi-Wan is fighting aggressively as opposed to in line with true Soresu when fighting Dooku. I'm not sure why he does this, because his mastery of Soresu levels the playing field with Anakin and with Grievious, and in the EU it allows him to survive fights with Ventress and others. It seems to me to be a huge inconsistency that Fightsaber and by extension the idea of "Saber styles" doesn't address.
That might have been the deciding factor in the duel between him and Anakin: He knew Anakin's unconventional manouvers, and could defend himself against that, where Dooku failed to do the same. Yet, Anakin didn't have any chance to defeat Kenobi using offensive force attacks - like Dooku did.Skywalkers emotional state might have contributed to his loss and possible it was even the main factor. Yet, I do think that Kenobis knowledge of Anakin's fighting style, thinking and the defensive abilities of the Jedi Master also contributed to Skywalkers defeat. Chalking it all up to Anakin's emotional problems would be underestimating Kenobi's qualities.
My list of factors which helped Obi defeat Anakin where others failed:
[list][*] Familiarity with his fighting style
[*] Anakin being enraged and irrational. All balls, no measure.
[*] Obi-Wan did not underestimate Anakin's prowess.[/list]
If you compare this with Dooku, the Count may have had some passing familiarity with Anakin's style, true. As a master of many styles himself, he's no saber novice. Anakin was not an emotional wreck either, so there's that. But I find that the final piece is most crucial. Dooku sorely underestimated Anakin, and that allowed the complacency which opened the door for his defeat.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
U mad, bro?As you felt inclined to point out in the thread about Sadow and Sidious, there is a difference between proficiency and mastery.
So, I'll ask again, is Dooku a master of many styles?
* mas·ter·y
noun /ˈmast(ə😉rē/ 
Comprehensive knowledge or skill in a subject or accomplishment
- she played with some mastery
* pro·fi·cient
adjective /prəˈfiSHənt/ 
Competent or skilled in doing or using something
- I was proficient at my job
- she felt reasonably proficient in Italian
I've corrected myself in word choice, choosing proficient over mastery because some folks around here like to argue semantics more than the point at hand. The definitions are still loose, and not entirely out of the question here (comprehensive knowledge could arguably be true of a teacher of all seven forms), but that's losing sight of my intention, which was to point out that complete knowledge of Anakin's usual combat methods gave Obi-Wan a different edge than Dooku, who had to rely on his experience with other duelists and those half dozen duels or so he had with Anakin.
This point wasn't crucial as to why Obi-Wan did so much better by comparison; I feel that his complete respect for Anakin's prowess kept him alive because it kept him on his guard and didn't allow for mistakes and gloating. Meanwhile, Dooku believes he's superior to damn near everyone in the series excepting Sidious and Yoda, and he ignores whatever danger Anakin possesses because he's been given no reason to fear him up until this point.
Originally posted by BorbaradI'm not entirely sure about that. Following the depiction of their duel in the novel, Anakin potential is partitially unleashed, allowing him to simply decide to win the duel, negating Dooku's superior command of the force and his superior skill and experience.
The impression I always got from that was because he was all over Dooku with his lightsaber, he simply did not give Dooku a chance (by that point in the fight) to use his superior command of the force to his advantage.
Like you said, if Lucas wanted to show Anakin's clear superiority he could have had him force pushing Dooku across the room. But we never see how ROTS Anakin would hold in a force contest against Dooku, so its something that can be debated.
Originally posted by BorbaradSo rage can be a factor in duels, because it can give a temporary advantage. That being said: This could be the reason for Anakin winning the duel against Dooku, but it doesn't have to be the reason for that - following the novel, which has Anakin staying calm while utilizing his darker emotions.
You see he had that focus and clarity while using his rage at that point in the movie. I think focus and clarity is what takes a temporary force boost and turns it into something more consistent and combat effective that can decide the outcome of the fight.
Remember despite Obi-Wan's rage against Maul (after seeing his Master die, so not exactly something he could repeat in any fight) he was never actually defating Maul, and his boost only lasted a few seconds, and he still lost (the lightsaber duel).
Originally posted by Borbarad
To be fair: Dooku didn't outduel Kenobi, but leveled him with superior force mastery. I'm not entirely sure that Dooku could beat RotS Kenobi in a fight in which both would be limited to their skill with a lightsaber.
I am. Seeing Ventress disarm Obi-Wan twice in CW shows his defences are not as invincible as everyone makes out. They can be broken. The second time Ventress disarmed Kenobi was with a Kick. Dooku's kick's are far worse, and more calculated.
Originally posted by Borbarad
That might have been the deciding factor in the duel between him and Anakin: He knew Anakin's unconventional manouvers, and could defend himself against that, where Dooku failed to do the same. Yet, Anakin didn't have any chance to defeat Kenobi using offensive force attacks - like Dooku did.
Anakin did have that chance. Him and Kenobi stalemated a force push attack on each other. If Anakin's ability with the Force was anything like Dooku's that would have been the end of Kenobi there and then.
I put the difference in Anakin's fight with Dooku and Kenobi down to:
1) Dooku being surprised at how powerful Anakin was, and by that point no longer having a chance to use the Force effectively on him.
2) Anakin's clarity with which he used his rage against Dooku not being present in his fight against Obi-wan.
3) Obi-Wan knowing Anakin too well.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Good point about Obi-Wan and Maul with the rage issue. I'd completely forgotten about that. Of course, Darth power has consistently shown me that he refuses to admit rage = temporary burst of power because it doesn't help his pro-Opress argument in the other thread. I don't expect you'll get much further.
Yeah except Obi-Wan's rage boost hardly lasted a few seconds and was a one off due to seeing his master die. Whilst Opress's rage boost had no such motivation, was used more consistently, and in the last fight lasted a long time. Those facts which you've completely ignored are what killed your Anti-Opress arguments.
Also it doesnt help that even with his Rage Obi-Wan wasn't exactly throwing Maul all over the place and still lost the actual duel!
