The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I'd submit that such discrepancies can be examined holistically and accuracy can be attained through careful investigation. For example, Luke's underperforming in Zahn-related works is usually the product of Luke's in-universe minimalist tendencies; this is addressed in the Hand of Thrawn duology and then readdressed in The Unifying Force: Luke is hesitant to draw upon his full spectrum of powers in combat because of fear that he is abusing such power and toeing the line between light and dark.

If Yoda's words in The Empire Strikes Back are to be believed {and according to Ush, they are and you dare not disagree}, then there are no limits to what a Force user can do-- except for those limits that he or she imposes upon themselves.

Realistically, any Force user is capable of extraordinary feats of power {some easier than others, i.e. the Skywalkers, because their abundance of midichlorians enables them to tap into the Force in ways that others have to work at to replicate}.

I don't see, how this approach could generate accurate results.

Ultimately, you're attempting to gloss over out-of-universe problems by advertising in-universe explanations. Which doesn't make sense and can't be successful. For example: Chalking up Luke's lower force showings to him holding back becomes absurd at the point, where Luke is put into life-threatening situations. Furthermore, such a premise wouldn't make sense in context of versus fights, where we presume, that characters go "all out" on eachother. And lastly, the mere possibilty of accepting Yoda's statement as truth, makes room for a lot of speculation regarding the abilities of certain characters.

Which force abilities themselves being a problem, as they can't be compared to eachother. Is Nihilus force drain more impressive that Sidious force storm - or does the thought bomb require even more power...

This, too, has never been much of an issue as far as I'm concerned. Consider, if you will, the nature of the Force as portrayed in The Force Unleashed. Kazdan Paratus, something of a random Jedi Knight, is capable of using the Force in ways that most Jedi Knights and Masters are not shown to do. He was singlehandedly capable of destroying legions of battle droids according to the game's databank and used the Force to assemble and animate a veritable army of junk titans from afar. Now, would I put him above the likes of Yoda or Mace Windu? No, because canon makes it abundantly clear that these two are the most skilled and powerful Force users {all around} available to the Jedi order.

Again, you approach only generates results as long as one agrees to your line of thought. One could point out, that while Mace and Yoda are the strongest individuals for the PT era, the Force Unleashed games are far closer to the OT time-frame, thus making it entirely possible, that Kazdan Paratus has become more powerful in that time, than Mace for example. In case of TUF, this would even be possible, provided, that Paratus was able to give Starkiller a run for his money, with the latter being able to defeat Vader and hold his own against the Emperor for a brief amount of time.

I, however, would assume, that, due to games (computer games and pen&paper RPGs) focusing on the title characters which happens to be the player's character in most cases, one should be careful when assuming that everything shown is acceptable as canon. For TFU, the corresponding literature did put some things into perspective, for example. We lack that kind of material, however, when it comes to most other games and when it comes to the SWRPG, we're entirely limited to the sources specifically designed to make the corresponding universe playable / enjoyable for RPG fans.

What do you mean?

What I mean are retcons, different depictions of events in different sources (e.g. novels/movies - or JKA trilogy VS "I,Jedi."😉 and the constant rewriting process of certain characters (or character traits) happening "behind the scenes" (e.g. Grievous in the Clone War series). Then some sources can be interpreted in a fashion, that doesn't make much sense, provided one takes previously released sources into consideration. Simple put: There is a very high level of ambiguity in the realm of Star Wars and no method to create something akin to "order", especially not since the production process does still continue.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only thing Il say is that obviously Obi-Wan's rage was unusually high and a one-off.. Its not going to be every day that his Mentor/Master will die in front of him.

Whilst Opress's rage boosts dnt seem to need the same level of motivation. It seems its something inside him that can be unleashed any time (kind of like Anakin)..

And his boost seemed to be far greater than Obi-Wan's also IMO.

I'm not convinced, that the motivation does factor in on the effect. People can get quite angry about things, that other people don't even consider important. And I have to disagree on your idea that Opress could unleash his anger at any given time. If that were the case, he wouldn't let himself getting lightning raped by Dooku that often, without reacting to that.

Urm yeah, but both those things happened while she was fighting off Anakin. And the force push happened a few seconds before she began force choking both Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously. I know we can always say he was holding back, but its pure speculation IMO, and I really dnt see any excuse for being disarmed and put on the floor like that while he had back up. I also see no reason for going easy on his defence against the likes of Ventress.

There are a lot of characters in the mythos that totally look worse as part of a team, than they do on their own. If that weren't the case, Sidious shouldn't have survived RotS, but instead getting slaughtered by four Jedi Masters in his office - especially, if we consider Kit Fistos exploits in the Clone Wars series alone.

But for holding back, one could make the point that, as Jedi, the duo of Anakin and Obi-Wan - and especially Kenobi himself - is never quick to kill oponents and usually doesn't take them too seriously. Hell. Obi-Wan reacted with a mere "Sith Lords are our speciality" when being about to confront one of the most powerful force users the Order has produced in the last couple of centuries gone Dark Side.

Iv not really seen a hint of this in the series. And im not sure where Obsession even fits into canonicity any more. That was supposed to be Obi-Wan and Anakin's first encounter with Ventress after she gave Anakin his scar! Lol

Obi-Wan usually treats Ventress with a mixture of amusement and taunting. Sometimes one gets the impression that he doesn't take her that serious as oponent (their first duel in the series is kind of a testament to that - also: see above).

Borbarad
For example: Chalking up Luke's lower force showings to him holding back becomes absurd at the point, where Luke is put into life-threatening situations.

The decision might be absurd in that it is arguably unwise for Luke to do so, but that is the consistent explanation that spans multiple authors and series.

Borbarad
Furthermore, such a premise wouldn't make sense in context of versus fights, where we presume, that characters go "all out" on eachother.

'All out' in what context? Technically, one could argue that in order to go 'all out', Luke must indulge in dark side philosophies {if not powers}. The closest thing to a Jedi fighting without much restraint and not succumbing to the dark side that springs to mind is Yoda's attack on the Emperor in the Rotunda; he immediately goes for the kill and does not offer his opponent mercy-- it is obvious that he intends to commit regicide. But even then I'd hesitate to say that he's truly going 'all out'-- he does not use dark side powers despite his familiarity with them.

In this regard, I'd say that these battles presume that the opponents apply a level of force that is not inconsistent with who they are. Pretty much every Jedi {and especially the Sith} show a willingness to kill in the context of a duel, but that doesn't mean that the Jedi in particular will utilize every power at their disposal.

So I suppose it all comes down to what you really mean when you use the phrase 'go all out'.

Borbarad
And lastly, the mere possibilty of accepting Yoda's statement as truth, makes room for a lot of speculation regarding the abilities of certain characters.

Not necessarily, because those limitations are there-- imposed by their deceitful minds. Essentially, we would have no reason to believe certain characters are prepared to indulge in superhuman feats if they've never shown the desire or willingness to do so.

Borbarad
Which force abilities themselves being a problem, as they can't be compared to eachother. Is Nihilus force drain more impressive that Sidious force storm - or does the thought bomb require even more power...

It depends on what you mean by impressive. In terms of raw destruction, I'd be inclined to side with the Force Storm-- it's capable of destroying anything, whereas Nihilus's technique is designed to end life.

Borbarad
One could point out, that while Mace and Yoda are the strongest individuals for the PT era, the Force Unleashed games are far closer to the OT time-frame, thus making it entirely possible, that Kazdan Paratus has become more powerful in that time, than Mace for example.

Force mastery is gained through "intense study and dedicated training" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume I, pg. 285)-- I see no evidence that Paratus, an insane fugitive, would have become more proficient in the ways of the Force stranded on Raxus Prime. Is it possible? Sure, but I would submit that it is highly unlikely.

Borbarad
What I mean are retcons, different depictions of events in different sources (e.g. novels/movies - or JKA trilogy VS "I,Jedi."😉 and the constant rewriting process of certain characters (or character traits) happening "behind the scenes" (e.g. Grievous in the Clone War series). Then some sources can be interpreted in a fashion, that doesn't make much sense, provided one takes previously released sources into consideration. Simple put: There is a very high level of ambiguity in the realm of Star Wars and no method to create something akin to "order", especially not since the production process does still continue.

I suppose I'd need to see an example of an actual discrepancy beyond Grievous. The newer series is on a higher level of canon than the micro-series or novels, and it comports itself with what we see in the films-- General Grievous is a dangerous fighter, but a coward who is ultimately far less formidable than what we saw in the aforementioned novels and micro-series. In order to battle Council-level Masters, Grievous relies on deception, numbers, and the environment to prevail {not to say that he's incapable of defeating Jedi without those, but that the series has made it abundantly clear that he won't steamroll Jedi Masters as he did in previous incarnations}.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The decision might be absurd in that it is arguably unwise for Luke to do so, but that is the consistent explanation that spans multiple authors and series.

Are you perhaps speaking of the ideas expoused here?

QUOTE from Vision of the Future:
"No, I know," [Luke Skywalker] conceded. "I made a decision to stop using the power of the Force so much."

And suddenly, through that mixture of compassion and impatience came a wave of something completely unexpected. An overpowering flood of relief. "You got it," Mara said quietly. "Finally."

Luke shook his head. "But why?" he demanded. "The power's obviously there, available for a Jedi to use. Is it just because I touched the dark side that using it is so bad for me?"

"That's probably part of it," Mara said. "But even if you'd never done that you'd still have run into trouble. You ever been in a hullplate-shaping plant?"

"Ah - no," Luke said, blinking at the sudden change of topic.

"How about an ore-crushing facility?" she suggested. "Lando's had a couple of them at one time or another - you must have visited at least one of them."

"I've seen the one on Varn, yes," Luke said, the mention of Lando's name throwing a sudden damper on the cautiously growing feeling of excitement at these new revelations. Mara's relationship with Lando...

"Fine," Mara said, either missing the change in Luke's emotions or else ignoring it. "Sometimes small songbirds set up their nests in the upper supports of those buildings. Did you hear any of them singing when you were there?"

Luke smiled tightly. Again, it was so obvious. "Of course not," he said. "It was way too noisy in there to hear anything that quiet."

Mara smiled back. "Pretty obvious, isn't it, once you see it. The Force isn't just about power, like most non-Jedi think. It's also about guidance: everything from those impressive future visions to the more subtle realtime warnings I sometimes think of as a danger sense. Trouble is, the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you're able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity."

"Yes," Luke murmured, so many puzzles suddenly coming clear. He had often wondered how it was he could rebuild Darth Vader's personal fortress while Master Yoda had become winded doing something as relatively simple as lifting an X-wing from the Dagobah swamp. Clearly, Yoda had understood the choices far better than his upstart pupil.

And even in the short time since Luke had decided to try that same choice he'd already seen glimpses of why Yoda had chosen that path. Subtle bits of guidance, sometimes occurring as little more than vague and almost subconscious feelings, had been showing up more and more: protecting him from a quick capture back at the Cavrilhu Pirates' asteroid base, or quietly prompting him to accept Child Of Winds's assistance, which had led directly to this cavern and the pride-motivated aid of the Qom Jha. "I was on Iphigin a couple of months ago helping Han with some negotiations," he said. "The Diamala at the talks told Han that Jedi who used as much power as I did always ended up slipping over to the dark side."

"They may be right," Mara agreed. "Not all Dark Jedi come from botched training, you know. Some of them slip into it all by themselves."

I like this explanation personally.

yup

And he has a speech to Jacen on similar grounds in TUF.

Ooooh. Do you have it?

The Unifying Force
"Not yet," Luke said. "But a new evil has been unleashed."

"By the Yuuzhan Vong?"

"By the dark side."

Jacen nodded.

"Your real enemy."

Luke turned to him.

"You should be thinking about your own course, Jacen, not mine."

Jacen exhaled with purpose.

"I have no one but you to look to, to know which path I should take. Our courses are entangled."

"Then I guess I'd better listen to what you've decided about me."

Jacen took a moment to collect his thoughts.

"From everything you've told me over the years about confronting your father and the Emperor, it has always seemed to me that neither of them was your real enemy. Each tried to entice you to join him. But they were never the source of your fear. You feared falling to the dark side."

Luke grinned faintly.

"Is that all?" he said finally.

Jacen shook his head.

"On Coruscant, at the ruins of the Jedi Temple, Vergere said that the Jedi had a shameful secret, and that secret was that there is no dark side. The Force is one. And since there are no separate sides, the Force can't take sides. Our notions of light and dark only reflect how little we know about the true nature of the Force. What we've chosen to call the dark side is simply the raw, unrestrained Force itself, which gives rise to life as easily as it brings death and destruction."

Luke listened closely. Now I shall show you the true nature of the Force, the Emperor had told him at Endor. On Mon Calamari, Vergere had tried to lead him down the same path, by implying that Yoda and Obi-Wan were to blame for not telling him the truth about the dark side. As a result of their neglect, when Luke had cut off his father's hand in anger, he assumed he had had a close brush with the dark side. When he stood at the side of the cloned Emperor, he had truly felt the dark side. Ever since, he had come to equate anger with darkness itself, and he had passed that along to the Jedi he had tutored. But in fact, according to Vergere, Luke had been misguided by his own ego.

She had maintained that, while darkness could remain in someone by invitation, it could just as easily be jettisoned by self-awareness. Once Luke accepted this, he would no longer have to fear being seduced by the dark side.

"You're suggesting that I've held myself back by not wanting to incorporate this raw power into my awareness of the Force," Luke said.

"Vergere received years of formal training in the Force," Jacen said. "The things she told me must have been common knowledge among the Jedi of the Old Republic."

"Vergere was corrupted by the years she spent living among the Yuuzhan Vong," Luke said evenly.

"Corrupted?"

"Maybe that's too strong a term. Let's say strongly influenced."

"But she felt she hadn't been influenced by them."

"She can't be blamed. Each of us stands at a kind of midpoint, from which we're capable of seeing only so far in either direction. Our senses have been honed over countless millennia to allow us to navigate the intricacies of the physical world. But because of that, our senses blind us to the fact that we are much more than our bodies. We truly are beings of light, Jacen.

"The emphasis the Jedi have always placed on control operates the same way. Control blinds us to the more expansive nature of the Force. The Jedi of the Old Republic wanted only youngsters for this reason. Jedi needed to be raised in the light, and to come to see that light as unblemished, undivided. But you and I haven't had the luxury of that indoctrination. Our lives are a constant test of our will to exorcise any darkness that creeps in.

"In that sense, your instincts about me are correct, and so were Vergere's. The dark side has, in a sense, dominated my life. I've suspected for a long time that the fatigue I've sometimes experienced when drawing on the Force during combat owes to my fear of abusing the raw power you describe.

"It's true that the Force is unified; it is one energy, one power. But here's where I think you and Vergere are incorrect: the dark side is real, because evil actions are real. Sentience gave rise to the dark side. Does it exist in nature? No. Left to itself, nature maintains the balance. But we've changed that. We are a new order of consciousness that has an impact on all life. The Force now contains light and dark because of what thinking beings have brought to it. That's why balance has become something that must be maintained-because our actions have the power to tip the scales."

"As the Sith did," Jacen said.

"As the Sith did. The Emperor was perhaps the most self-assured person I have ever encountered, but he deliberately chose evil over good. And in the right climate, one individual, suitably driven and skilled, can tip the universe into darkness. For darkness has followers, especially where discontent, isolation, or fear hold sway. In such a climate enemies can be fashioned, imagined out of thin air, and suddenly all good is lost, all perspective vanishes, and illness takes hold."

I love you. 😄

ily2

Man, they really ****ed up Jacen huh? Very well written.

You'd like Vergere if you ever read NJO. She's very similar to Kreia, but with more depth and mysteriousness to her.

But theres so many boooooks.........

And I'm only just finishing book 2 of a Song of Ice and Fire. 🙁

Also seeing the above it really does go to show how much of a corrupting force the darkside is. In Betrayal and the Dark Nest Crisis Jacen was an intelligent and likable fellow, much as he is above, but by the end of LOTF he's a frothing madman. Thats a hell of a transformation in, what? 6 months?

Before you tread further into Martin's books {given Nai's warning about the length of time in between each one}, I'd recommend reading the Engineer Trilogy, which Lucius the Whore and I very much enjoyed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Man, they really ****ed up Jacen huh? Very well written.

It was well written until the DNT...

I also find this very interesting: "We truly are beings of light, Jacen."

The Mortis Trilogy seems to be where we can best learn about the true nature of the force and Luke's notion that we are "being of light" certainly doesn't jive with what is presented in the trilogy.

Luke's "beings of light" is merely an echo of Yoda's remark that Jedi are "luminous beings."

Originally posted by ares834
It was well written until the DNT...

I also find this very interesting: "We truly are beings of light, Jacen."

The Mortis Trilogy seems to be where we can best learn about the true nature of the force and Luke's notion that we are "being of light" certainly doesn't jive with what is presented in the trilogy.

The Dark Nest Trilogy? I found him to be alright in that. But then, they were the first EU books I read. He was funny when he trolled all the Jedi Masters without even trying. 😂

I've never heard of the Mortis Trilogy? What era is it? 😮

TCW.

Read the Engineer Trilogy. Now.

Yes, it certainly echoes it but he seems to be also indicating that following the light side is our true nature while Yoda was only claiming we are truly spiritual beings IMO.

No. I'm reading G.R.R. Martin atm!

....Plus all the other shit for my literature course.....

It's offical...