The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Zampanó
I would do the thing where you quote successively smaller fragments of your post until the reprehensible part is isolated, but that sounds like work. Instead:

This is not acceptable. Jamey Rodemeyer’s school had a dance "shortly after his death," which his sister attended. A Ga-Ga song came on and "they all started chanting for Jamie, all of his friends." Then, "the bullies that put him into this situation started chanting, ‘You’re better off dead!’ and ‘We’re glad you’re dead!’ and things like that," his mom said in an interview with the Today Show. (Link) I think it is clear that there are significant differences between the sort of schoolyard bullying that can be dismissed as you've done, and the atmosphere of systemic harassment that pervades schools. The sort of bullying that is drawing national attention is not simple name-calling; it isn't even just basic violence. Instead, it is a relentless pursuit that follows the victim everywhere: through hallways and classrooms all the way home in the form of social networking sites.

And it is not just schoolboys who are the perpetrators of this abuse. Teachers are both facilitating and joining in such abuse. Jim Whitney's Facebook account posted homophobic comments including "Moral of the story: Don't be gay" in response to an article about a suicide shared by a former student. (Link) Viki Knox "referred to homosexuality as, 'a perverted spirit that has existed from the beginning of creation,' and a 'sin' that 'breeds like cancer.'" (Link) Jerry Buell posted that "'If they want to call it a union, go ahead,' 'But don't insult a man and woman's marriage by throwing it in the same cesspool as same-sex whatever! God will not be mocked. When did this sin become acceptable???'" (Link)

Most damning of all is this video where a beating was caught on tape, possibly by the attacker's cousin. He lies in wait and brutalizes a classmate after having posted hateful comments about the victim's sexuality to Facebook. (Link)
(The video was painful to watch for me, but is not internet-awful, just real-world awful.)
YouTube video

Schools are not safe places for LGBT youth; this is evident by the sheer volume of suicides we've seen. The increases in exposure, especially through new technologies like texting and social networking, are amplifying and worsening the effects of the anti-LGBT culture that resonates so powerfully withing schools.

I say resonates because it is not anything unique to schools that is causing this pattern. Indeed, school children are rarely anything but imperfect reflections of their parents' positions. Instead, it is the attitude that harassment during school is somehow less important than harassment in any other setting. The assault in that video was originally going to result in a 3 day suspension. Hell, forget what the victim's sexuality is, that was violent! It was only after the story went national that assault charges were raised.

I don't care if someone verbally abuses another based on their sexuality, gender, choice of jeans, or nationality. Verbal abuse can be walked away from and ignored. It can also be countered. With fists if need be. The societal and cultural attitude many places have towards LGBT is unfortunate, but also, I feel, a separate issue than 'bullying'. Bullying at school or elsewhere is just one form of expression for bigots.

The solution isn't to curb 'bullying'--that's a helluva slippery slope downwards to loss of personal freedoms and a Pussy State. The solution is to curb homophobia and bigotry. Attitudes toward LGBT can and should be changed, but the act of 'bullying' is a separate thing altogether.

But regardless, I still feel nothing but contempt toward suicides, no matter their hardships. They're the epitome of mental weakness, IMO--the 'opt outs'.

The solution isn't to curb 'bullying'--that's a helluva slippery slope downwards to loss of personal freedoms and and a Pussy State. The solution is to curb homophobia and bigotry. Attitudes toward LGBT can and should be changes, but the act of 'bullying' is a separate thing altogether.

Takes one to know one huh? Look, Eddie Murphy said it best. You can be friends with homosexuals and play tennis with them. After the match though, you go have a beer and he goes to polish someone's knob.

Anyways, LL is right. It is one hell of a slippery slope. However, if you weren't gay (ya right), someone would find something else with you. It's an adolescent cycle and it's not going to change. My school was pretty ghetto too but that was elementary when we couldn't drive yet. I'm sure it's a bigger problem in a high school but I'm a huge proponent of fight fire with fire, as you know. The government sucks so they would never realize this but a rent-a-bully service should exist somewhere. If you're getting death threats or physical violence from a bully, pay a bigger one to beat the crap out of him and problem solved.

One thing I do not tolerate really is the internet thing. I've swatted people before and have been swatted (when there was no law against this) and the things kids do to others on the internet is morally repugnant. People like that deserve to get messed with in the worst way because there really are worse things than death out there.

Edit: If none of that made sense its because im going on 2 hours of sleep.

Hardly surprising that the guy who calls the 50s the shit, would dismiss a serious problem because he has to beat his chest about how manly he is and show off his complete lack of understanding of the humanities.

What a fucking bigoted (your favorite word!) backwards cunthole you are DS.

And finally veneficus comes here with his anti logic, pro emotional bullshit. "He doesn't support homosexuals so he MUST be bigoted!" Lets look at all the ways your post makes you look dumb.

1. I did not dismiss the serious problem because I frequently used the terms "extreme cases" as being a serious problem, while going on and on about the abuse used on the internet.

2. If you want to call what I said "beating my chest", then i'll call your "understanding" nothing more than coddling and babysitting. The problem is, I understand humans better than you as you've shown, trying to blow up everything that deals with homosexuality, on these forums. I also love how you perceive yourself as "progressive" without any understanding of the word.

3. I already mentioned this but the stupidity of it was too much NOT to expand.
bigot (ˈbɪɡət) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]
—n
a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

You'll have to show me where I fit the description. And when you fail, you can continue this transparently idiotic crusade you're on. Speaking of which, where's your sympathy for those committing suicide because of bullying that has nothing to do with sexual preference? You're nothing but a hypocrite who goes around picking and choosing whatever helps your emotional crusade.

(I for one am simply pleased that DS hasn't called anyone a *** yet.)

And thanks for the rent-a-bully idea DS, but I was always covered by friends on the soccer team or in a big enough crowd that it was irrelevant. Edit: And in college you can filter out assholes at will.

Lucius, DS hasn't really said anything terrible yet (the worst thing has been from LL, actually) and I agree with him that there's a lot to be said for fighting your own battles.

Originally posted by Zampanó
(I for one am simply pleased that DS hasn't called anyone a *** yet.)

And thanks for the rent-a-bully idea DS, but I was always covered by friends on the soccer team or in a big enough crowd that it was irrelevant.

Lucius, DS hasn't really said anything terrible yet (the worst thing has been from LL, actually) and I agree with him that there's a lot to be said for fighting your own battles.

The only people I call a *** are my friends and its reciprocated on an hourly basis. I do not support the homosexual lifestyle (doesn't mean I don't oppose it either Lucius!" I don't have a problem with cool homos but if you're both gay and a douche, that's even worse than just being a douche. I'm a big fan of fighting my own battles and taking personal responsibility rather than blaming someone else (representative of leftist ideologies). And finally, Veneficus only unleashes these barely intelligible tirades when homosexuality is involved. Don't pretend to be objective when you aren't.

Edit: I didn't know the soccer teams were fully supportive of their water boy, you have a good thing going there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The solution isn't to curb 'bullying'--that's a helluva slippery slope downwards to loss of personal freedoms and a Pussy State. The solution is to curb homophobia and bigotry. Attitudes toward LGBT can and should be changed, but the act of 'bullying' is a separate thing altogether.

I find it amusing that curbing of bullying would lead to a Pussy State, which I can only assume is a state where people respect differences and don't alienate each other based on sexual preference, nationality, religion, or sex. I mean, bullying doesn't arise from a sense of similarity; it's from differences. Disrespecting differences verbally is either wrong or it isn't. There's no grey area here. No civil liberties are being violated when you uphold a child's right to education without harassment. Odd that you don't disapprove of sexual harassment laws which protect the right of women especially to be free of unwanted behaviors in the workplace and in school, but bullying is apparently OK.

Also keep in mind that it's difficult to "man up" when you have almost zero support at home. When bullies attempted to push me around, I had family to protect me and show me how to not only stand up for myself, but stand up for others who may be abused. If I didn't have them, I would have been victimized in school and eventually dropped out altogether. This would ruin my self-esteem, my future, and probably lead to suicide or worse. Simply saying "Ah, they just need to man up. I'm fine, nothing happened to me" is ignoring context. Life isn't as simple as you'd like to think.

You know who was bullied and didn't find solace at home?

Wow, he came out just normal like DS said.

But regardless, I still feel nothing but contempt toward suicides, no matter their hardships. They're the epitome of mental weakness, IMO--the 'opt outs'.

This is surely ignorance. Suicide is a very real part of life for people who struggle with Clinical depression and simply being different from the mainstream. Waiving it away as mere weakness and "opt outs" is choosing to remain ignorant of very real important factors which push people to suicide. Karma would be you being at your weakest and having a similarly-minded person walk right past your prostrate body, sneering arrogantly since you've opted to leave empathy at the roadside.

You're right Janus. Providing an example of the extreme definitely helps your argument.

On another note, as someone who had real, diagnosed depression for 8-9 years, even I found it extremely selfish to even consider something like suicide.

But I suppose you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum, where I'm all about personal responsibility, and you're all about societal/outside influences ruling the night.

The fecal matter has definitely transitioned from an abstract concept to a literal medium in this thread.

Oh, that was what the smell was.

Now in all honesty, i do notice a difference in the standards of those discouraging bullying (which goes without saying is a negative...). Trying to make someone question their views in an abrasive manner on some subjects is considered bullying, while on other views, is considered enlightening. These subjects seem to be solely chosen by the person accusing another of bullying. It makes it hard for me to often respect an anti-bullying argument or legislation because of the hypocrisy of the messengers.

See I agree with DS when I had problems in school with bullying, verbal and physical I got diagnosed with depression and after the school did **** all, my parents did **** all, I decided to do the natural thing, and make him feel like me. I paid someone older to lay into him, he and no other bully touched me again.

Why don't we talk about something less depressing? Like Puppies!

So shut your snouts about this bullying stuff.

Originally posted by truejedi
Now in all honesty, i do notice a difference in the standards of those discouraging bullying (which goes without saying is a negative...). Trying to make someone question their views in an abrasive manner on some subjects is considered bullying, while on other views, is considered enlightening. These subjects seem to be solely chosen by the person accusing another of bullying. It makes it hard for me to often respect an anti-bullying argument or legislation because of the hypocrisy of the messengers.

Wait, um, which "views" are we talking about here? If you're comparing calling the invasion of Iraq an illegal war with pushing someone for being gay, I'm not sure if we can be friends.

There is a fairly important distinction between challenging someone's position on politics or even attacking their religion and insulting or harassing or assaulting someone because of who they are.

(I should point out here that I have never been targeted specifically by the sort of systemic bullying that I am denouncing. The worst I've endured was opportunistic assholery.)

Matt! (back from the dead?)

anyway, i think there is a giant differnce between physical bullying and verbal bullying.

The freedom of expression and free speech was not easily won. To start to surrender it, for any reason, isn't nearly as much a slam dunk as those backing it would have you believe. (You DON'T support arresting someone for verbal abuse, then you MUST like bullying, and LOVE IT when kids kill themselves.)
Please.

Originally posted by truejedi
Matt! (back from the dead?)

anyway, i think there is a giant differnce between physical bullying and verbal bullying.

The freedom of expression and free speech was not easily won. To start to surrender it, for any reason, isn't nearly as much a slam dunk as those backing it would have you believe. (You DON'T support arresting someone for verbal abuse, then you MUST like bullying, and LOVE IT when kids kill themselves.)
Please.

Originally posted by mattatom
See I agree with DS when I had problems in school with bullying, verbal and physical I got diagnosed with depression and after the school did **** all, my parents did **** all, I decided to do the natural thing, and make him feel like me. I paid someone older to lay into him, he and no other bully touched me again.

Well, when I got bullied I told nobody because it's something I was going to deal with myself and I was stronger for it.

There is a fairly important distinction between challenging someone's position on politics or even attacking their religion and insulting or harassing or assaulting someone because of who they are.

So explain the difference between me not supporting homosexuals because of ideological differences and Veneficus blurting out "bigot!!" because I don't share his views on this particular social issue.

We're not doing the puppies thing?

That makes me sad. :C

Originally posted by Zampanó

There is a fairly important distinction between challenging someone's position on politics or even attacking their religion and insulting or harassing or assaulting someone because of who they are.

I have a small problem with this. You are assuming that attacking someone's religion isn't attacking who they are? Who are we really? We define ourselves by our priority system, that is fairly well-known accepted psychological theory. To someone who defines themselves by their religion, attacking that religion IS attacking who they are. Just because (you) (not Z, just anyone choosing the view that finds the defense of homosexuality worth defending while deciding that religious identitity isn't) don't feel like religion is an important thing to defend in a bullying legislation, doesn't mean someone else feels the same.

It's 180 degrees from someone who feels like homosexuality shouldn't be defended but religion should. it is 2 sides to the same coin, and BOTH are important to the people who are being mocked.