The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
They are. Every single person who subscribes to a religion is doing so to reach a goal. Just as every single person who goes to scratch an itch is doing so to reach a goal.

This is incorrect. You don't speak for the religious, the ones who actually believe in God and have a basis for doing so. Religious people (such as religious jews) don't use religion to reach a goal. For them, there is God and Judaism and that's it. If people choose to call it a religion and claim they use it to get closer to god, that's your prerogative but that's not really how we classify it.

Your a jew...?

Damn...

Yes.. You couldn't tell by my penchant for money and lack of patience for homosexuality and all things not holy?

That and your crazy food laws. Sooo.. Is it true that christians are annoyed because the Jewish court basically sentenced Jesus to death?

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
That and your crazy food laws. Sooo.. Is it true that christians are annoyed because the Jewish court basically sentenced Jesus to death?

No but Christians have been riding the "you killed jesus" genocidal train since the crusades so it's not likely to stop anytime soon.

I wish all religion could just co-exist peacefully. I mean, Christianity uses the Old Testament. Hell, Islamic stories are like exactly the same as the Jewish ones.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is incorrect. You don't speak for the religious, the ones who actually believe in God and have a basis for doing so. Religious people (such as religious jews) don't use religion to reach a goal. For them, there is God and Judaism and that's it. If people choose to call it a religion and claim they use it to get closer to god, that's your prerogative but that's not really how we classify it.

Every single conscious action, by every single human, who has ever lived, was done on the conscious, semi-conscious, or unconscious feeling that doing so will bring us a measure of satisfaction. The tiniest iota of pleasure, or relief, is a "profit". A "gain". The acquisition of those gains is the goal. It is a constant, universal human trait, regardless of culture or time. Everything we ever do, say or decide is 100% "right" the very instant it's done. Even if we later regard that action as "wrong", the decision to label it so is "right". Everything we do on a day-to-day basis, regardless of how much "sense" it makes, is done with that goal of satisfaction in mind. Religion, faith, politics, ideologies, positions, jobs, recreation, whatever. We need to satisfy ourselves and our base demands. We need comfort and shelter. We need to feel strong and able. We need to feel we're right. We need to entertain ourselves. We need to ensure our survival. We need to feel good. We need many things.

God brings you comfort? Your political leaning makes sense to you? Football, not baseball? Propagation of the Master Race? Ice cream for dinner instead of a salad? Flagellate yourself? Tap your foot against the floor? Scratch your chin? Read the back of a pamphlet you found in the dentist's office? Murder a child on the orders of your commanding officer? Run a red light? Sacrifice your life to save another, reveling in your own selflessness seconds before regretting your stupid decision? Start humming a song? Judge something? Argue on the internet? Do the cinnamon challenge? Pray for forgiveness?

Satisfaction. All of it. Sating our wants and needs on every level imaginable. Literally everything we do is done for satisfaction. Or the attempt to attain it. Belief in your deity is no different.

^ So I can safely say, I believe what my friend said.
He finds happiness in 'knowing' that he will go to Heaven when he dies.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
^ So I can safely say, I believe what my friend said.
He finds happiness in 'knowing' that he will go to Heaven when he dies.

I find happiness in my love of science and particle physics. When I watch an hour long QnA session with Michio Kaku who co-founded String Field Theory, I feel happy that we've come a long way from beating rocks together.
We don't do things to hurt ourselves, mostly. I see religion as a tool which wants to make /LOADS/ of people happy, and a way to unite and bring people together in the happiness. Not that it always turns out like that.

I believe in morals based on common sense. Religion teaches morals. But too much morals goes against common sense and as the result against happiness.
Happened to live in a place with diverse religious groups and see all the disadvantages this diversity brings.

Originally posted by Arhael
I believe in morals based on common sense. Religion teaches morals. But too much morals goes against common sense and as the result against happiness.
Happened to live in a place with diverse religious groups and see all the disadvantages this diversity brings.

Thats a fair point. Having to learn morals from a book or scripture seems wrong. You shouldn't need to be told by a higher being or a prophet that killing or something is wrong. You should learn as you go through life. IMO

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not about getting closer to God. Getting closer to God is a tool that reaches the exact same goal that religion in general does. Or eating a food you like. Or playing a game you like. Everything humans knowingly do, whether it be physical and mundane, or spiritual and meaningful, is a tool.

Originally posted by Arhael
I believe in morals based on common sense. Religion teaches morals. But too much morals goes against common sense and as the result against happiness.
Happened to live in a place with diverse religious groups and see all the disadvantages this diversity brings.

Hitler and Stalin also believed in morals based on "common sense". LL, I don't need validation of a heaven, God, or afterlife to be happy or live my life. I'm not sure your example applies to most religious people.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Sure, but that's semantics of the highest order, to the point where it's not even really relevent. It's like pointing out that the correct answer to any question is "everything is relative". True, but also largely irrelevent to the question.

What matters to me is that he wants a god at all. And that's where what I said above comes in. I hear (read) answers ranging from "Morality" to "I'm just used to it" to "It provides answers" to "I feel it". And every time it boils down to "Because it comforts me." For varying reasons and in different ways, people's faiths comfort them, via the sense of a greater presence who cares for them, or providing answers to questions they can't themselves answer. Religion/faith are useful tools for providing satisfaction.

Substitute 'religion' for any umbrella term and the answer's always the same. Humans want satisfaction, and we spend our days getting it however we're able. I think what you guys want is the reasons behind the picking of specific methods--religion/politics/recreation etc.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Hitler and Stalin also believed in morals based on "common sense". LL, I don't need validation of a heaven, God, or afterlife to be happy or live my life. I'm not sure your example applies to most religious people.

I'm not really interested in answering the specifics of people's preferences. If DS wants a Jewish God, by all means...

Substitute 'religion' for any umbrella term and the answers always the same. Humans want satisfaction, and we spend our days getting it however we're able. I think what you guys want is the reasons behind the picking of specific methods--religion/politics/recreation etc.

You've accepted faith for whatever reason you have, I won't claim to know the specifics. But the choice pleases you.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Hitler and Stalin also believed in morals based on "common sense".

Edit: This argument is getting disturbingly close to an argument from Friends....

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What do you mean I want a Jewish God? Lol

Substitute "religion" for moral relativism and you get the exact same conclusion, except I choose to look to a higher being instead of the idiocy of man.

You act as if my faith is blind. Do you actually believe that faith is blind by definition?

My point is that you will choose whatever faith/philosophy/ideology etc. that you like. You'll think you're right/justified/sensible. You'll use your knowledge and experience to settle on a choice and it will feel good. You'll defend it and you'll feel right. Your faith/beliefs/ideas are comforting to you. Doesn't matter what they are or what specific tenets you support.

What you believe in pleases you. What you do in life you do to satisfy yourself. Literally every action. Choosing to maintain a faith is but one of countless things you do every day that pleases you. You'll justify/rationalize/modify as needed to maintain what you've chosen. If you choose to disregard any of it, then that will be the right choice to make, and doing so will please you. Your present action will never be wrong because you've chosen it. And you chose it to satisfy yourself.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
My point is that you will choose whatever faith/philosophy/ideology etc. that you like. You'll think you're right/justified/sensible. You'll use your knowledge and experience to settle on a choice and it will feel good. You'll defend it and you'll feel right. Your faith/beliefs/ideas are comforting to you. Doesn't matter what they are or what specific tenets you support.

What you believe in pleases you. What you do in life you do to satisfy yourself. Literally every action. Choosing to maintain a faith is but one of countless things you do every day that pleases you. You'll justify/rationalize/modify as needed to maintain what you've chosen. If you choose to disregard any of it, then that will be the right choice to make, and doing so will please you. Your present action will never be wrong because you've chosen it. And you chose it to satisfy yourself. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Hitler and Stalin also believed in morals based on "common sense". LL, I don't need validation of a heaven, God, or afterlife to be happy or live my life. I'm not sure your example applies to most religious people.