The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Just going to address a couple of points since we've been through this debate countless times:

Originally posted by The_Tempest

The question then becomes: if Sidious was being legitimately challenged or threatened in the lightsaber duel, why did he not then crush the brothers with the Force?

He did at the points he felt threatened- Like when he was hit off the balcony, and after that when he decided to remove Maul from the battle by knocking him out with the Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We've been over this ad nauseam. Sidious clearly did restrain himself at certain points in the duel with Yoda when he foolishly believed Yoda wasn't in a position to threaten him (e.g., after he knocked Yoda out and after Yoda stopped his pod). But, unlike the brothers, Yoda evoked visible fear and struggle in Sidious.

The website doesn't say he enjoyed "certain parts of the duel." Just that he took delight in combating Yoda.

Also I wasn't aware you thought Sidious was restraining himself against Yoda at times.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
While also pointing out that these guys were never going to win it. So how can they threaten him? How can a person legitimately threaten another if we know for a fact that A doesn't have a chance of winning?

They can't threaten his life. I'm not arguing that they can. I'm arguing that if Sidious wants to take them out with his Sabers, then they won't go down without a fight. That's all. Maul/Opress are above Fisto/Tiin/Kolar level. And even Fisto lasted a few seconds.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, Filoni says Savage "lasts longer" than the B-team. That works just as well with the idea that Sidious allowed Savage to last longer. Which, coincidentally, is supported by Word of God.

No, those ideas are completely not compatible simply because Filoni made the context of that quote very clear. He states "going down to Sidious , you know, it's not that bad. He lasted longer than the Jedi Council, I'll give him that much.."

So he specifically credited Opress for his longer performance than the Jedi Council. He at no point credited Sidious's playfulness for the extra length of time he lasted.

There's simply no other way to interpret that, because there was no other reason to bring that up except to credit Opress for it, when you listen to the context and the reason he's bringing it up.

Originally posted by Petrus
They orchestrated the fight in the way they did for the single purpose of entertaining the audience. It's obvious. The only reason as to why the brothers weren't stomped since the very beginning of the duel is because Filoni wanted to put Sidious' power on display for everyone.

Nah I'm with Nai on this. There was plenty of opportunity for them to show Sidious's ability to Saber blitz/stomp Maul and/or both brothers together but it just wasn't shown.

They could have had the "flashy" fight with the 2 on 1, and then had Sidious blitz them both in the one on ones. But that didn't happen. In fact in the final one on one Maul put up a decent Saber fight on his own.

Originally posted by Petrus
That's why they didn't do it Tiin-Fisto-Kolar style. 'Cause it was lame.

Filoni's already credited Opress for lasting longer than Tiin-Fisto-Kolar, and for not going down that quickly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He did at the points he felt threatened- Like when he was hit off the balcony,

Where did you see that he was threatened? He's visibly smiling as he soars off the edge.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and after that when he decided to remove Maul from the battle by knocking him out with the Force.

Maybe he wanted to play with Savage one-on-one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The website doesn't say he enjoyed "certain parts of the duel." Just that he took delight in combating Yoda.

I didn't say the website said that. The website's right: Sidious does clearly delight in fighting Yoda when he feels he has the upper hand. Other times, he's pissed or frightened, antithetical to delight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also I wasn't aware you thought Sidious was restraining himself against Yoda at times.

Of course he was. When Yoda was knocked out, Sidious could have pressed his advantage. When Yoda was spinning the captured pod, Sidious could have pressed his advantage. In both cases, he chose not to and gloated instead.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They can't threaten his life. I'm not arguing that they can. I'm arguing that if Sidious wants to take them out with his Sabers, then they won't go down without a fight. That's all. Maul/Opress are above Fisto/Tiin/Kolar level. And even Fisto lasted a few seconds.

I disagree. Sidious quite clearly goes for the kill with Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar whereas he's toying with Maul and Savage. Are the Sith better? Probably. But not to the extent that they can contend with Sidious in a no holds barred fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, those ideas are completely not compatible simply because Filoni made the context of that quote very clear. He states "going down to Sidious , you know, it's not that bad. He lasted longer than the Jedi Council, I'll give him that much..

So he specifically credited Opress for his longer performance than the Jedi Council. He at no point credited Sidious's playfulness for the extra length of time he lasted.

That's the only way to interpret it when Filoni clearly states that the brothers can't compete with Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's simply no other way to interpret that, because there was no other reason to bring that up except to credit Opress for it, when you listen to the context and the reason he's bringing it up.

As I said, that's the only way to logically interpret that when Filoni clearly says the brothers don't even qualify as competition for Sidious. 😬

Hrm, I had totally forgotten this I wrote about TOR some time ago:

[list]This is something I wanted to discuss here and get some feedback. Most of you may already know about the Sith genocide which came during/after the Great Hyperspace War. Essentially, the Chancellor ordered the Jedi to wipe the Sith race out and they complied, although obviously some survived off-planet. That's one moral issue. But on playing Belsavis in TOR (which is basically an abandoned Rakata prison planet converted for Republic use in some areas) the Republic's gotten its hands -really- dirty and I felt it needed to be examined.

1. In addition to keeping thousands of sentients locked up in pens or suspended animation on-world, the Republic locked up a Prince of the Cathar people and his supporters because he was pushing for the Cather to not join the Republic. It's not stated whether or not Prince Shange actually considered the Sith Empire as a viable option, but given that he's rescued by Sith operatives from his forced imprisonment, I'd say it's a fair bet the fallout from the action could hurt the Republic war effort and cause many aliens to leave the union.

2. In addition to genuine criminals and enemies of the Republic government, you find the random Fallen Jedi. This is another concern - the Republic is either secretly locking up Jedi who fall to the Dark Side without the knowledge of the Jedi Order, or worse - the Jedi Order is in fact handing over Jedi for detainment and worse. Because this leads to...

3. Experiments. The Republic military is conducting experiments on aliens in particular, but fallen Jedi are also found in the hot zone where experiments occurred, and the primary goal appears to be understanding alien thresholds in combat and stress. It's an experiment so ethically bankrupt that even Sith operatives express shock and surprise. Basically, the Republic seeks to test alien species such as Gand, Gamorrean, Rattataki, etc. and find out what makes them tick... by jacking them with medicines, monitoring them, and letting them war among themselves.

4. Shock collars. There's a wealth of shock collars found on site. Forget that none of the criminals can bypass Force field doors and climb the 40+ foot tall duracrete walls and slip into the hostile jungle to... get nowhere since all shuttles offworld are militarily owned and protected. No, they possess shock collars for the inmates.

5. Dread Masters. These madness and fear oriented Sith masters were captured during the war and kept in suspended animation. My question is this - were the Republic experimenting on them too? Or is this the only humane detainment method on the whole god-forsaken rock?

What are your thoughts?[/list]

--

Looking back, the Republic is fokk'd up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dave has the personality of a bitter woman, so sometimes I wonder if he's even a guy at all, which may also explain why he accused me of insulting him when I mentioned he had a wife.

So I think maybe the whole topic on gay marriage or being gay at all offends him. He might be a woman who desires to be a man.

Edit: or maybe he really is a guy who likes guys, which may also explain his feminine personality.

How does the topic offend me at all? Or are you typing random thoughts just so people can see your text? You're not making any sense... As usual.

And as far as my stance go Janus, we've debated this many times. For some reason, you can't accept that I could have two opinions on the matter. Nevermind the fact that both opinions are logically sound.

And yes, I'm a man. Not only am I a man, but I'm a man who's going to Josh Groban this week. All man all the time.

Good thoughts about the Republic. They remind me a lot of our country. Their intent is good, but their action and execution is retarded and hypocritical, especially after condemning "evil".

You forgot to mention that a lot of the inmates on Belsavis haven't actually committed any crime, they are simply the children of people sent there. Which is just WOW! So freaking unethical.

Originally posted by psmith81992
And yes, I'm a man. Not only am I a man, but I'm a man who's going to Josh Groban this week. All man all the time.

😂

Hey, Petrus. Protip: If you're trying to advocate for a group's rights, maybe don't suggest that their actions are "disgusting."

I also find two dudes banging in front of me disgusting

I mean, I don't want to discourage anybody from advocating for equal treatment of queer people. That's not what I'm saying. But if you aren't comfortable with the thought of being associated with the movement, then don't feel like you have to. Being equitable in your treatment of people is enough.

(This has the added benefit of limiting your opportunities for putting your foot in your mouth.)

Dave, your opinion is all that I really want from the Republican party: Nobody is asking you to officiate a gay marriage. We just want you to not deny rights to swaths of the population. Your personal opinions will either change, or not, as the rest of the culture changes over time.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Hey, Petrus. Protip: If you're trying to advocate for a group's rights, maybe don't suggest that their actions are "disgusting."

I am heterosexual. Just as I'm sure a homosexual man would find the idea of himself having intercourse with a woman disgusting, I find the exact opposite of the idea personally disgusting. The thing is, my personal tastes have nothing to do with this, and that's exactly the point. Everyone should be allowed to marry whoever they want, sexual orientation a non-factor. If I somehow miscommunicated this idea, my mistake.

If you're so insecure about your sexuality that you have to include a standard "gays=disgusting" disclaimer to remind us that you're straight, then maybe your help isn't needed.

I really just LOL at the idea of anyone thinking I'm insecure about my sexual orientation, especially because my intention was not at all to remind anybody I'm straight, but rather to clarify that regardless of personal preferences, everybody should have the same rights. I hope this was explained clearly for you in my previous response just above this one. I need not prove anything to anyone, so if that's what you think I was doing, you are gravely mistaken.

I mean, I don't want to discourage anybody from advocating for equal treatment of queer people. That's not what I'm saying. But if you aren't comfortable with the thought of being associated with the movement, then don't feel like you have to. Being equitable in your treatment of people is enough.

I'm not uncomfortable with the thought of being associated with the movement, as I've attempted to explain before. I clearly didn't explain myself in a very clear manner, and for this I apologize.

I'm sure a homosexual man would find the idea of himself having intercourse with a woman disgusting

This has not been my experience at all. Gays are more handsy with women than straights could ever get away with. On top of that, many gays had sex with women before coming out. The trope of a gay guy being afraid of vaginas is a really obnoxious and inaccurate stereotype.

More to the point, disgust is usually an outgrowth of fear of association. Children call the unpopular kid gross so that they aren't ever tarnished by association. Moving away from that kind of language can only help the discourse.

Anyway, you said the magic words* so it's not like I think you're a bad guy. Just maybe be a little more careful using words like "disgusting" or gross to label things that other people find valuable or intimate.

*regardless of personal preferences, everybody should have the same rights

Yes. I certainly don't find gays disgusting; I should've explained myself better. And disgust was probably a harsh word to prove a point. I'll be more careful in the future.

Although, I have to say... I have a pair of gay friends who find the idea of themselves kissing or having sex with a woman pretty gross [or at least say they do]. That's mainly why I pointed it out and used it as a reference, but you say it's mostly not the case... So, are my friends a couple of anomalies?

Dave, your opinion is all that I really want from the Republican party: Nobody is asking you to officiate a gay marriage. We just want you to not deny rights to swaths of the population. Your personal opinions will either change, or not, as the rest of the culture changes over time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Of course he was. When Yoda was knocked out, Sidious could have pressed his advantage. When Yoda was spinning the captured pod, Sidious could have pressed his advantage. In both cases, he chose not to and gloated instead.

Yeah and Yoda's the biggest threat to him at that time period. Which shows it's just in his character to gloat and enjoy being in combat. Doesn't mean he's not trying.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I disagree. Sidious quite clearly goes for the kill with Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar whereas he's toying with Maul and Savage. Are the Sith better? Probably. But not to the extent that they can contend with Sidious in a no holds barred fight.

No holds all out, he's just too powerful in the Force. I agree there.

But just Saber fight? It wasn't shown he could blitz/quickly stomp Maul and Opress together. And there was ample opportunity to show that after giving us the "flashy" fight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's the only way to interpret it when Filoni clearly states that the brothers can't compete with Sidious.

As I said, that's the only way to logically interpret that when Filoni clearly says the brothers don't even qualify as competition for Sidious. 😬

Fighting competitively implies having a chance of actually winning. Giving a fight before going down is hardly the same as being competitive. His context was clear with Opress's performance.

We're not going to agree on this, but like Nai said if Sidious can Saber stomp both brothers in seconds, it certainly wasn't shown. Although it was clearly shown he can stomp them in an all out applying his force powers into the combat.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yes. I certainly don't find gays disgusting; I should've explained myself better. And disgust was probably a harsh word to prove a point. I'll be more careful in the future.

Although, I have to say... I have a pair of gay friends who find the idea of themselves kissing or having sex with a woman pretty gross [or at least say they do]. That's mainly why I pointed it out and used it as a reference, but you say it's mostly not the case... So, are my friends a couple of anomalies?

The term for those people is "gold star gay." That is, they don't ever want any sexual contact with a women (this term is the literal worst and I don't endorse it at all). In my encounters, these are the minority. That might be a selection bias just because I don't deal well with the extreme parts of gay culture, though. We're both operating with such small sample sizes that I have no way of knowing. I'll just say that it isn't true for me or for any of the people I'm friends with.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah and Yoda's the biggest threat to him at that time period. Which shows it's just in his character to gloat and enjoy being in combat. Doesn't mean he's not trying.

It does mean he's not trying when he's rendered "the biggest threat to him at the time period" unconscious and, instead of stabbing him in the face, chooses to taunt and gloat instead. Or when his opponent is mustering all his strength in redirecting a captured pod and instead of hammering him with three more, he sits back and laughs.

No one is saying that Sidious was holding back the entire fight, which would be stupid. The primary difference between the Emperor's fight with Yoda and his fight with the Zabraks is that Yoda demonstrably matches Sidious, eliciting visible struggle, strain, and fear in the Dark Lord.

But with the brothers, he's all smiles and laughs. And when Maul finally does wipe the smile from his face with a boot to the chest? Sidious ends the duel one move later.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No holds all out, he's just too powerful in the Force. I agree there.

But just Saber fight? It wasn't shown he could blitz/quickly stomp Maul and Opress together. And there was ample opportunity to show that after giving us the "flashy" fight.

Filoni confirms that Sidious is enjoying himself fighting the brothers. If that's the case, what reason does he have to blitz them? It's like if I really enjoy going to Disney World, I'm not going to just pop in for 5 minutes but instead spend the entire afternoon there.

Your argument is essentially: if Sidious coulda, he woulda. An argument with which I'd agree if he was fighting for his life rather than having the time of his life.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fighting competitively implies having a chance of actually winning. Giving a fight before going down is hardly the same as being competitive. His context was clear with Opress's performance.

😐

A person who has zero chance of winning won't be in a position to give a good fight, now would he?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We're not going to agree on this, but like Nai said if Sidious can Saber stomp both brothers in seconds, it certainly wasn't shown. Although it was clearly shown he can stomp them in an all out applying his force powers into the combat.

I disagree. Sidious walked in and made quite clear that the brothers aren't a physical threat to him. He could have ended the fight whenever he wanted. He was just better, and by a lot. Stronger, smarter, faster, more agile, more skilled, more powerful. Times ten.

The only reason the duel lasted as long as it did was because Sidious was enjoying himself and didn't want it to end abruptly.

Steel Panther is the best band in the world. Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

But with the brothers, he's all smiles and laughs. And when Maul finally does wipe the smile from his face with a boot to the chest? Sidious ends the duel one move later.

That one move took almost 10 seconds to complete after the the boot to the chest. And that after an already fairly intense fight.

Also there was another time he wasn't similing, and that was right before he knocked Maul out with a Force push.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Filoni confirms that Sidious is enjoying himself fighting the brothers. If that's the case, what reason does he have to blitz them? It's like if I really enjoy going to Disney World, I'm not going to just pop in for 5 minutes but instead spend the entire afternoon there.

Depends on the exact nature of his enjoyment. If it was just pleasure in inflicting pain, then he could do that by tossing them around with the Force all day.

But it was more likely the pleasure in beating them in armed combat (with a bit of torture afterwards). My sparring partner almost always beats me at grappling. And he mocks me in the process, enjoying himself. But he still enjoys the challenge of how quick can he take me down.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your argument is essentially: if Sidious coulda, he woulda. An argument with which I'd agree if he was fighting for his life rather than having the time of his life.

My argument is I'm not going to second guess Sidious's ability to Saber blitz Maul/Opress in seconds when it wasn't shown. I'll go by the "epic" Saber duel which was intended for the audience. But I'm also keeping Filoni's comments in mind to remind me that there was no way the Brothers were ever going to win (or even escape). End of the day director's comments supplement the source material, but can't outright replace it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A person who has zero chance of winning won't be in a position to give a good fight, now would he?

Like I said I can't really beat my sparring partner/trainer. Doesn't mean I can't make it a challenge for him to take me down in say under a minute. And doesn't mean he can just beat me any second he decides to.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I disagree. Sidious walked in and made quite clear that the brothers aren't a physical threat to him. He could have ended the fight whenever he wanted. He was just better, and by a lot. Stronger, smarter, faster, more agile, more skilled, more powerful. Times ten.

The only reason the duel lasted as long as it did was because Sidious was enjoying himself and didn't want it to end abruptly.

Agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You forgot to mention that a lot of the inmates on Belsavis haven't actually committed any crime, they are simply the children of people sent there. Which is just WOW! So freaking unethical.

This is why I prefer the Empire.

That and they have better voice actors.

A response is forthcoming, DP.

But first: Janus, as one of the more prominent Sidious-haterz, I'd like to get your take on Sidious vs. the Zabraks. Have you seen it?