I understand, I'm just surprised that you'd seriously say that. Y'know, sober.
In other news, Steampunk:
I understand, I'm just surprised that you'd seriously say that. Y'know, sober.
In other news, Steampunk:
Originally posted by psmith81992
Well, you're already starting off on the wrong foot. Old me would have been like "lol homos". If you haven't notice, I try to ask why from more educated people than myself. And "really" from Neph doesn't mean he understands what's going on, just that he's following the crowd.
The 'really' seemed to be to be a profound shock at your statements, which seemed incredibly silly, given that homosexuals are victims of discrimination, and homophobes are simply just people who hate other people and cause discrimination.
Your position implied that the problem is with the former, and not the latter, and that position is not morally defendable.
Correct, but you have football player after football player coming on today's ESPN shows saying they've played with homosexuals for years, even decades and for the most part, there is NO issue in the locker room. A teammate is a teammate. Thus, if nothing was said, the status quo (that is, a lack of homophobia despite belief of the contrary) would have been maintained.
This is a healthy sign. But it was not always the case, nor is it the case in all social situations. Again, your assumption is that "everything is okay, stop making a big deal out of it". This is a general statement being applied based off of one situation you've presented.
If it was such an unpopular opinion, then today's overly sensitive generation wouldn't scream "homophobe!" every time someone does something other than unconditionally support homosexuality. Apparently, the unpopular opinion appears to be a lack of support.
Overly sensitive according to you = calling out bigotry.
You're also confusing the idea of not openly hating or discriminating homosexuals with 'unconditional support of their lifestyle', which is surprising. I can not openly hate or discriminate against Zen Buddhists; I don't have to unconditionally support their belief system. There's a fundamental difference between respecting someone's right to be different and sacrificing your own beliefs and saying theirs are superior; you seem to be mistaking this difference or pretending it doesn't exist.
I don't get your point here. Some people can genuinely be homophobic. Some people can neither support, nor oppose homosexuality. Some people can oppose it for religious reasons but at the same time, accept the person just fine.
I thought this was pretty clear; people who hate others don't like being hated in turn for their positions. But they feel it's okay to have that hate and showcase it despite the fact that it might hurt others.
Let's put this another way:
If my family tradition/religion/national identity demanded that I hate Jews, despite any rational counterarguments, and I openly made anti-semitic comments in a social setting... how could I get mad when people judge me in turn for my bias and dislike? Or is it only okay when religion bans sexual behaviors? When do you draw the line?
Lets take a quick look at the news. What do you hear more of, racism and homophobia or perceived racism and homophobia? That is, in the case of homosexuality, people coming out and getting a big pat on the back, while at the same time saying haters (in this case, mythical) can suck it.
Homophobia is more of a current issue so it attracts more attention. Racism, on the other hand, has been a social issue recognized and given proper attention only for the last 50 years or so; it has less novelty to the media and therefore may be selected against more than homosexuality. Also, same-sex marriage is a current event and related.
I'm not sure why you're upset about the 'suck it' mentality towards haters. If they don't exist, no harm done. If they do exist, they don't deserve the defense, since they are telling gay people to 'suck it' (no homo) because how they love others is innately wrong.
Unfortunately, you haven't even attempted to prove any kind of double standards here but as you're wont to do, you scream your claim long and hard enough, then you start to believe it without any evidence.
Sure I have. There's a double standard when it's defensible for people to have anti-gay feelings and be morally okay, but not okay for them to hate blacks, Jews, women, other nationalities, etc.
You would not approve of or defend a person who hated your own self-identified group (Jews); why would you get upset or raise a fuss over those who hate gays? Why are gays less worthy of defense than their detractors?
-- Neph, those steampunk pics rule. I approve. 👆
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The 'really' seemed to be to be a profound shock at your statements, which seemed incredibly silly, given that homosexuals are victims of discrimination, and homophobes are simply just people who hate other people and cause discrimination.Your position implied that the problem is with the former, and not the latter, and that position is not morally defendable.
This is a healthy sign. But it was not always the case, nor is it the case in all social situations. Again, your assumption is that "everything is okay, stop making a big deal out of it". This is a general statement being applied based off of one situation you've presented.
Overly sensitive according to you = calling out bigotry.
You're also confusing the idea of not openly hating or discriminating homosexuals with 'unconditional support of their lifestyle', which is surprising. I can not openly hate or discriminate against Zen Buddhists; I don't have to unconditionally support their belief system. There's a fundamental difference between respecting someone's right to be different and sacrificing your own beliefs and saying theirs are superior; you seem to be mistaking this difference or pretending it doesn't exist.
I thought this was pretty clear; people who hate others don't like being hated in turn for their positions. But they feel it's okay to have that hate and showcase it despite the fact that it might hurt others.Let's put this another way:
If my family tradition/religion/national identity demanded that I hate Jews, despite any rational counterarguments, and I openly made anti-semitic comments in a social setting... how could I get mad when people judge me in turn for my bias and dislike? Or is it only okay when religion bans sexual behaviors? When do you draw the line?
I'm not sure why you're upset about the 'suck it' mentality towards haters. If they don't exist, no harm done. If they do exist, they don't deserve the defense, since they are telling gay people to 'suck it' (no homo) because how they love others is innately wrong.
Sure I have. There's a double standard when it's defensible for people to have anti-gay feelings and be morally okay, but not okay for them to hate blacks, Jews, women, other nationalities, etc.
You would not approve of or defend a person who hated your own self-identified group (Jews); why would you get upset or raise a fuss over those who hate gays? Why are gays less worthy of defense than their detractors?
Since it is very late and I am tired, this is kind of a rant. The main points are as follows:
1. Formative years for gay people involve a lot of exclusion, and seeing that gays are included in the ranks of successful people is inspirational to current victims.
2. Gay people coming out normalizes the idea of being gay, and helps fight annoying stereotypes.
3. The effects of homophobia are still really severe; until 2012 I could get kicked out of an apartment I paid for just because I'm gay.
4. Gay culture developed as a way to identify each other without being noticed by outsiders. Being able to identify in public is a really huge change.
45. It's not like it hurts straight people if we come out. You guys talk about ugly babies all the time lol
Originally posted by psmith81992
Speaking of homophobia, I'm pretty sure society has it backwards. Everytime an athlete comes out, it's front page news ALL day. Isn't the point of treating everyone the same way, by ignoring it completely? I'm not singling out liberals or the left, just anyone who cries wolf everytime someone doesn't have a complete support of homosexuals, yet alienates them by putting them in the spotlight. You want to treat homosexuals like regular people? Don't give a shit everytime someone comes out. It's not front page news, nor should it be.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Help me understand this RH. What I've noticed is that the only group of people that mention homophobia or homosexuality in general, are homosexuals and advocates. It's as if they need to create a crusade for themselves. Now I'm definitely not debating whether homophobia exists, but in this day and age, it's contained and kept quiet. So everytime stories like these come out, I'm thinking that the homosexual advocates are the ones that alienate homosexuals.
Alright, well I'm approaching this from the perspective of a person who hasn't struggled much with being gay, so at least some of this is second-hand experience.
I think that the reason that many gay activists believe that coming out as a famous person is important is because many of them did not have a community that they could be a part of during their formative years. For example, my partner for debate this year is a more feminine gay guy than I've ever interacted with, and he's told me stories about how High School was difficult because rural Nebraska wasn't accepting of boys in (organized, school) vocal music programs. He actually had to change schools at least once. (The bullying wasn't solely around music, but the difficulty some people have finding a niche in their early life is immense.) It really seems like a cartoonish stereotype, but these are the problems that really define how you see the world. In his words,
"Having openly gay role models in music helped me see that a person like me could do big things."
When you are reminded daily that your instincts are inherently embarrassing or sinful or equivalent to "weak" then it can be difficult to set bigger goals than making it to the end of the week without getting targeted. So for people like him, having openly gay famous people identifies those specific places as potentially safe life-goals. For a person whose only experiences are based on a small town's prejudices, this can be pretty damn important.
In my own experience, the issue hasn't really been finding a community but instead that I hate being a novelty. When more people come out of the closet, it becomes less likely that I get stupid questions like "are you really good at fashion" or "what's your favorite musical?" (The answer of course is that the t-shirt I'm wearing for the third time doesn't qualify as fashion, and Star Trek hasn't put out a musical yet, so I have no opinion.)
To answer your question, it is important to make a note that someone famous is gay because for a lot of people, the idea of a successful gay person is almost a contradiction. More famous gay people will make coming out a non-event. Currently, there's still a huge career and personal risk involved.
And, also, homophobia is hardly "contained." In Nebraska, until 2012 I could be kicked out of an apartment I paid for because I was gay. The city ordinance changing this law generated a huge outcry, and the most popular political trick by its opponents was that "we have to put it to a vote." My right to live in a place I've paid for isn't a thing that should be voted on. I can still be fired if an employer finds out I am gay. There is a constitutional amendment that says no union of mine, marriage or other legal union, will ever be recognized by the state.
I am more aware of my HIV status than any other demographic (negative, fyi) yet I'm not allowed to give blood.
I guess the feeling is that having members of the community in high places can only be a good thing. It wasn't that long ago that Matthew Shepard was tied to a fence and left to die by rednecks. Gay culture developed primarily as a covert operation. It was important to find willing partners, yes, because loneliness does terrible things to people. Expecting celibacy is simply not realistic. But, the consequences of being outed were extreme. Getting outed to the wrong people could be a death sentence. For some people it still is. Matthew Shepard's story is too tragic for words.
Being able to exist in public at all is a huge (and new!) victory.
Sorry if this is long or disjointed. This was kind of a barf of ideas without much editing. Ask me questions. I'm happy to explain things even though I'm not THAT involved with gay culture.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-life-lessons-you-learn-from-being-bullied/
I'll get to your post later RH. I DID want your opinion specifically not because you are fully immersed in that world, but because you would have the best idea out of all of us wtf is going on.
That link is pretty funny, as Cracked always is.
On a completely unrelated note, haven't there been a lot of suicides in the States within the last few years over being bullied for being (perceived to be) gay? I remember it because I got very very angry over a few examples. Like the one where the bullies continued to write abuse on the kids memorial page.
Recent North American and New Zealand studies of large populations (especially the US Youth Risk Behavior Surveys from several states) indicate that gay, lesbian, and bisexual adolescents (males in particular) can have rates of serious suicide attempts at least four times those of apparently heterosexual youth.
(Link)
Gay and lesbian youth belong to two groups at high risk of suicide: youth and homosexuals. A majority of suicide attempts by homosexuals occur during their youth, and gay youth are 2 to 3 times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people. They may comprise up to 30 percent of completed youth suicides annually. The earlier youth are aware of their orientation and identify themselves as gay, the greater the conflicts they have. Gay youth face problems in accepting themselves due to internalization of a negative self image and the lack of accurate information about homosexuality during adolescence. Gay youth face extreme physical and verbal abuse, rejection and isolation from family and peers. They often feel totally alone and socially withdrawn out of fear of adverse consequences. As a result of these pressures, lesbian and gay youth are more vulnerable than other youth to psychosocial problems including substance abuse, chronic depression, school failure, early relationship conflicts, being forced to leave their families, and having to survive on their own prematurely. Each of these problems presents a risk factor for suicidal feelings and behavior among gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transsexual youth.The root of the problem of gay youth suicide is a society that discriminates against and stigmatizes homosexuals while failing to recognize that a substantial number of its youth has a gay or lesbian orientation. Legislation should guarantee homosexuals equal rights in our society. We need to make a conscious effort to promote a positive image of homosexuals at all levels of society that provides gay youth with a diversity of lesbian and gay male adult role models. We each need to take personal responsibility for revising homophobic attitudes and conduct. Families should be educated about the development and positive nature of homosexuality. They must be able to accept their child as gay or lesbian. Schools need to include information about homosexuality in their curriculum and protect gay youth from abuse by peers to ensure they receive an equal education. Helping professionals need to accept and support a homosexual orientation in youth. Social services need to be developed that are sensitive to and reflective of the needs of gay and lesbian youth.
Introduction
Suicide is the leading cause of death among gay male, lesbian, bisexual, and transsexual youth. They are part of two populations at serious risk of suicide: sexual minorities and the young. Agency statistics and coroner reports seldom reflect how suicidal behavior is related to sexual orientation or identity issues. The literature on youth suicide has virtually ignored the subject. Research in recent years, however, with homosexual young people and adults has revealed a serious problem with cause for alarm.Statistical Profile
There is a high rate of suicidality among lesbians and gay men. Jay and Young found that 40 percent of gay males and 39 percent of lesbians surveyed had either attempted or seriously contemplated suicide. Bell and Weinberg similarly found that 35 percent of gay males and 38 percent of lesbians in their study had either seriously considered or attempted suicide. Homosexuals are far more likely to attempt suicide than are heterosexuals. A majority of these attempts take place in their youth. Bell and Weinberg found that 25 percent of lesbians and 20 percent of gay men had actually attempted suicide. Gay males were 6 times more likely to make an attempt than heterosexual males. Lesbians were more than twice as likely to try committing suicide than the heterosexual women in the study. A majority of the suicide attempts by homosexuals took place at age 20 or younger with nearly one-third occurring before age 17.[...]
(link, excerpt from p 110 of document, which is page 115 of the pdf)
There is statistical evidence that gay people are disproportionately faced with the challenges that are known to generate suicide risks. It is not just cowardice, but a real systematic injustice that leads to these results. I really think that the pressure of constantly editing out every facet of your inner life and instincts would break you, if you didn't have even one outlet.
Originally posted by Zampanó
There is statistical evidence that gay people are disproportionately faced with the challenges that are known to generate suicide risks. It is not just cowardice, but a real systematic injustice that leads to these results. I really think that the pressure of constantly editing out every facet of your inner life and instincts would break you, if you didn't have even one outlet.
Read the things I quoted in my post. If it were "just bullying" then gay kids wouldn't be killing themselves at a rate 3 times higher than their peers.
I was talking about both. But since we're talking about homosexuality being discriminated against, the main point is that people are still being attacked for being gay, sometimes leading to suicide.
Which is serious. Every single life is serious and precious, Beefy. If something is going on that leads to just one person dying, then it needs to be addressed because even one death is unacceptable.
Originally posted by psmith81992
As ever, you're mr. overblown. Bullying will always exist, in one form or another, so it's retarded to try and deal with it directly. What needs to be expanded upon is how to deal with bullying psychologically.
"Crime will always exist in some form or another, so it's retarded to try and deal with it directly."
"Murder will always exist in some form or another, so it's retarded to try and deal with it directly."
"Rape will always exist in some form or another, so it's retarded to try and deal with it directly."
Makes sense to me.
Like those things, bullying is a bad thing that we should be fighting to limit the amount of harm done to people. You're going to scoff that bullying isn't as extreme as those things, but the basic principle is the same. Bullying is bad. We should not allow bad things to happen and not try to deal with it.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Bullying is bullying. It exists in the adolescent world and for the most part, should be portrayed as harmless. Yes there are extreme cases but again, just like with everything else in today's overly sensitive society, the word "bullying" has become abused to the core.
But it isn't harmless. 😬 Do you even care about these 'extreme cases'? Do you really not think that these cases warrant action? Do you not think that we should be dealing with bullying precisely to prevent extreme cases such as this from cropping up? For 'harmless' bullying to escalate into extremes?
It can be "harmless" and it can be very damaging. This is especially the case when a subject like homosexuality is brought into it.
I was talking about both. But since we're talking about homosexuality being discriminated against, the main point is that people are still being attacked for being gay, sometimes leading to suicide.
Which is serious. Every single innocent life is serious and precious, Beefy. If something is going on that leads to just one person dying, then it needs to be addressed because even one death is unacceptable.
"Crime will always exist in some form or another, so it's retarded to try and deal with it directly.""Murder will always exist in some form or another, so it's retarded to try and deal with it directly."
"Rape will always exist in some form or another, so it's retarded to try and deal with it directly."
Makes sense to me.
Bullying is a part of adolescence. I'm not condoning it but I understand it happens, it will always happen. It happened to me. Obviously having a supportive family around you and having a lot of mental fortitude helps. But again, the word "bullying" has been destroyed. I bet you and I have different ideas of what bullying is.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Yes it is serious but at point does it become bullying? Or do you automatically call it bullying because someone committed suicide?
I call it bullying when someone or a group verbally or physically assaults someone for an extended period of time with the goal of emotionally, psychologically or physically hurting them. Like you, I was bullied. A younger but bigger boy would come and find me in the library and start hassling me, steal my shoes and generally try to upset me. This went on for a year or so. Thats bullying. It can be as little as that, or a full-on hate campaign.
Its bullying if someone commits suicide because people made them feel like shit deliberately or clearly drove them to it.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Fixed for accuracy.
Thanks, but that's hardly relevant to this discussion.
Originally posted by psmith81992
I'm fairly certain you just compared those three things to the possibility of someone saying mean words about someone else. Way to group everything together to make your argument work!Bullying is a part of adolescence. I'm not condoning it but I understand it happens, it will always happen. It happened to me. Obviously having a supportive family around you and having a lot of mental fortitude helps. But again, the word "bullying" has been destroyed. I bet you and I have different ideas of what bullying is.
Predictable response.
Bullying is not just saying mean things. Bullying can take many forms. Sometimes its just words, sometimes it can be physical. Here in England a boy was driven to suicide after being taunted about being gay but also for stuff like being choked with his tie and more physical forms of intimidation and abuse. But verbal abuse can be a lot more serious than you are making it out to me. People aren't driven to suicide my a few mean words. Systematically destroying someone self-worth can be just as harmful as a broken arm.
Just because it happens doesn't mean we should let it, which was my point. Things like murder and rape always happen, but that doesn't mean we don't try to prevent it from happening. I just don't see your point. Why shouldn't we try to fight bullying? Why is that a bad thing to do?
I call it bullying when someone or a group verbally or physically assaults someone for an extended period of time with the goal of emotionally, psychologically or physically hurting them. Like you, I was bullied. A younger but bigger boy would come and find me in the library and start hassling me, steal my shoes and generally try to upset me. This went on for a year or so. Thats bullying.
Its bullying if someone commits suicide because people made them feel like shit deliberately or clearly drove them to it.
Thanks, but that's hardly relevant to this discussion.
Bullying is not just saying mean things. Bullying can take many forms. Sometimes its just words, sometimes it can be physical. Here in England a boy was driven to suicide after being taunted about being gay but also for stuff like being choked with his tie and more physical forms of intimidation and abuse. But verbal abuse can be a lot more serious than you are making it out to me. People aren't driven to suicide my a few mean words.