Originally posted by Stealth Moose
... Which you haven't played in full.
I think this is a fair point. While I was playing, and playing the Jedi Knight story in particular, the story was presented in such a way that it wasn't derivative of the movies. Vitiate is portrayed a very different way to Palpatine and the Sith Empire is a lot different to the Galactic one. Especially from the point of view of the Imperial classes.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
... Which you haven't played in full.👆
Creation does not always happen in a vacuum, but your criticism seems really shallow, given that someone could take 'great' characters such as Revan, Malak, Mission, Obi-Wan, etc. etc. and make similar accusations.
I'm not saying your wrong for having your opinion, but this all seems odd given that TOR is closer to KotOR than any other Star Wars work, and is a spiritual successor, and you're deriding it for perceived similarities while ignoring large swaths of story and nuance.
IIRC, you didn't even play past 5 hrs.
...So let's be direct: are you going to sit here and tell me that Vitiate owes nothing to Palpatine?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
...So let's be direct: are you going to sit here and tell me that Vitiate owes nothing to Palpatine?
Are you going to tell me in return Malak owes nothing to Vader? That Obi-Wan owes nothing to The Hidden Fortress? That T3 owes nothing to R2? Etc. etc.
It's a superficial similarity. See Neph's post above; how Vitiate is handled as a villain is almost nothing alike except at the most basic levels. Otherwise, might as well do this:
1. Has Force drain.
2. Has a black hood.
3. Is a Sith.
4. Uses Sith Powers.
5. Hates Jedi.
6. Fights Jedi.
Etc.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already told you that Malak owes to Vader. Now feel free to answer me: does Vitiate owe anything to Sidious?No one said he was. But within the franchise, Palpatine most certainly is.
1. You admit KotOR characters are not original.
2. You claim TOR characters, specifically Vitiate, are not original also.
3. KotOR is a fine piece of EU.
4. TOR isn't.
5. You have played KotOR to completion.
6. You barely touched TOR.
7. You're attempting to get me to 'prove' some kind of debt Vitiate owes to Palpatine because he's a Pureblood Sith child Force prodigy who lived a completely unique life in comparison and used different means to achieve his goals.
BRO DO YOU EVEN LOGIC?
1. They're not.
2. No, I claim Vitiate isn't original. And shamelessly so.
3. Yes.
4. Also yes.
5. Yes.
6. Correct... but, with Youtube, I don't have to actually play the game to experience it. Unless words and visuals look differently that way?
7. No, I'm attempting to get you to answer an honest question. That you are unable to do so is "proof" enough that my point is valid: Vitiate's existence owes to Palpatine and you know it. And presumably, it bothers you.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
1. They're not.
2. No, I claim Vitiate isn't original. And shamelessly so.
3. Yes.
4. Also yes.
5. Yes.
6. Correct... but, with Youtube, I don't have to actually play the game to experience it. Unless words and visuals look differently that way?
7. No, I'm attempting to get you to answer an honest question. That you are unable to do so is "proof" enough that my point is valid: Vitiate's existence owes to Palpatine and you know it. And presumably, it bothers you.
Yes, and T3 owes his existence to Artoo.
So tell me: Why are you attempting to redirect this on me instead of justifying your selective dislike of Vitiate for being 'unoriginal', just like the whole cast of 'solid' KotOR?
Or should I claim victory because you have danced around it?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes, and T3 owes his existence to Artoo.
I am pleased. excellent
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So tell me: Why are you attempting to redirect this on me instead of justifying your selective dislike of Vitiate for being 'unoriginal', just like the whole cast of 'solid' KotOR?Or should I claim victory because you have danced around it?
The only dancing involved is on the mutilated corpse of your argument.
I already explained myself: KotOR in no way attempts to undermine the characters, events, and story of the films.
Compare the Death Star to the Star Forge. What made the Death Star unique? Its raw firepower. Rather than mimic that, Karpyshyn and co. create a unique superweapon that pays homage to the Death Star without imitating or undermining it. In some ways, the Forge stands on its own feet and is as dangerous as the Star. But it does so in its own way.
Present that opportunity to TOR's writing staff? "LOL LETS CREATE A WEAPON THAT BLOWS UP TEN PLANETS LOLOLOLOL!"
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I am pleased. excellentThe only dancing involved is on the mutilated corpse of your argument.
Which is what specifically? Oh wait, I know:
"Why are you so hard on TOR when KotOR is not original?"
I already explained myself: KotOR in no way attempts to undermine the characters, events, and story of the films.
Elaborate on 'undermine', according to you.
Compare the Death Star to the Star Forge. What made the Death Star unique? Its raw firepower. Rather than mimic that, Karpyshyn and co. create a unique superweapon that pays homage to the Death Star without imitating or undermining it. In some ways, the Forge stands on its own feet and is as dangerous as the Star. But it does so in its own way.
Honestly, I never thought of the Star Forge as being analogous to the Death Star, so I can't agree with this at all. The Star Forge is entirely different in every way. How can you use that as a valid example, and completely ignore things like T3, Zaalbar, the Ebon Hawk, etc? The fact that KotOR lifted a lot of the PT's aesthetics despite being 40 years after TOTJ?
Are things only okay to be superficially similar if they don't compare to Sidious at all? Is that the key factor?
Present that opportunity to TOR's writing staff? "LOL LETS CREATE A WEAPON THAT BLOWS UP TEN PLANETS LOLOLOLOL!"
K.
You still haven't shown me how Vitiate "shamelessly imitates and/or undermines" Sidious. Aside from being two power hungry Sith who wear black hoods (Join the ****ing crowd) and being titled 'Emperor', they couldn't be more dissimilar.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is what specifically? Oh wait, I know:"Why are you so hard on TOR when KotOR is not original?"
u mad, bro?
Elaborate on 'undermine', according to you.
To diminish the impact, import, or presence of.
Honestly, I never thought of the Star Forge as being analogous to the Death Star, so I can't agree with this at all. The Star Forge is entirely different in every way.
😐
Wow, really? They're both game-changing superweapons intended to be used by the story's Big Bad as the means by which to crush their enemies? You don't even see a similar aesthetic with the Star Forge's central sphere?
But that's the point: they took a Star Wars archetype of a superweapon and put a clever spin on it. That which made the Death Star unique is preserved and yet a new, iconic creation that is arguably just as dangerous is made manifest.
Good job KotOR! 👆
How can you use that as a valid example, and completely ignore things like T3, Zaalbar, the Ebon Hawk, etc?
I already acknowledged the similarities of many of these things on the previous page.
The fact that KotOR lifted a lot of the PT's aesthetics despite being 40 years after TOTJ?
TOR went one big step further in aesthetic-lifting than KotOR. I don't particularly mind that it wasn't faithful to TOTJ's outdated aesthetic.
Are things only okay to be superficially similar if they don't compare to Sidious at all? Is that the key factor?
Of course not, else I wouldn't care about the differences between the Forge and the Star.
K.You still haven't shown me how Vitiate "shamelessly imitates and/or undermines" Sidious. Aside from being two power hungry Sith who wear black hoods (Join the ****ing crowd) and being titled 'Emperor', they couldn't be more dissimilar.
Nah. Both have virtually identical personalities, goals, style, methods, and motivations.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
u mad, bro?
SO MAD.
To diminish the impact, import, or presence of.
So you're mad because Vitiate diminishes the impact, import and presence of Sidious?
Makes sense.
😐Wow, really? They're both game-changing superweapons intended to be used by the story's Big Bad as the means by which to crush their enemies? You don't even see a similar aesthetic with the Star Forge's central sphere?
Not once. I'm being honest. You're the first person to indicate any similarity to me, and I still argue that it's extremely superficial.
But that's the point: they took a Star Wars archetype of a superweapon and put a clever spin on it. That which made the Death Star unique is preserved and yet a new, iconic creation that is arguably just as dangerous is made manifest.
The Star Forge is a non-moving Star-draining ship and droid factory.
The Death Star is a large sphere battlestation which can vape planets.
Star Forge != Death Star.
I already acknowledged the similarities of many of these things on the previous page.
No, you gave them a pass and focused on Vitiate, who has less in common with Sidious than they do with their inspirations. Far less.
TOR went one big step further in aesthetic-lifting than KotOR. I don't particularly mind that it wasn't faithful to TOTJ's outdated aesthetic.
I agree, because TOTJ looked like crap.
Of course not, else I wouldn't care about the differences between the Forge and the Star.
It seems to be a red herring, because they are two entirely dissimilar things, and you've opted repeatedly to ignore comparing and contrasting your main points of contention (Vitiate v. Sidious) and things like T3 v. R2, Zaalbar v. Chewbacca, and the Ebon Hawk v. Millenium Falcon (The latter isn't even ****ing trying).
Be consistent.
Nah. Both have virtually identical personalities,
No. For one, Vitiate is explicitly inhuman, largely disinterested in his own empire, does not ever play the good guy, does not go for the same level of political manipulation, and is using entirely different means to achieve his end.
goals,
So was every Sith of note.
style, methods,
Entirely incorrect. Research please.
and motivations.
See above.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
SO MAD.
I can tell.
So you're mad because Vitiate diminishes the impact, import and presence of Sidious?Makes sense.
Within the story, absolutely. But since it only ultimately damages Vitiate alone (really, Palpatine accomplished more in 40 years than he did in 1400), all it strikes me as is the futile gesture of incompetent writers.
Not once. I'm being honest. You're the first person to indicate any similarity to me, and I still argue that it's extremely superficial.
lol
The Star Forge is a non-moving Star-draining ship and droid factory.The Death Star is a large sphere battlestation which can vape planets.
Star Forge != Death Star.
Bingo. And yet my description for their role is perfectly valid, which is testament to how well Karpyshyn pulled it off.
No, you gave them a pass and focused on Vitiate, who has less in common with Sidious than they do with their inspirations. Far less.
I already acknowledged their similarities, bro.
I agree, because TOTJ looked like crap.
Agreed.
It seems to be a red herring, because they are two entirely dissimilar things, and you've opted repeatedly to ignore comparing and contrasting your main points of contention (Vitiate v. Sidious) and things like T3 v. R2, Zaalbar v. Chewbacca, and the Ebon Hawk v. Millenium Falcon (The latter isn't even ****ing trying).Be consistent.
I am. I've acknowledged the similarities of the elements you bring up. I suppose the difference is that Sidious and Vitiate dictate the narrative to a far greater extent than do Zaalbar and T3. They're bigger, more important elements. Thus their intense similarities are inexcusable.
No.
Yes.
For one, Vitiate is explicitly inhuman,
You've described a single biological difference.
largely disinterested in his own empire,
As was Palpatine, to the extent that he, like Vitiate, passed day-to-day rule went to ministers like Pestage and Doriana; this factoid being present in the EU for decades.
does not ever play the good guy,
Himself? No. The bodies he possesses...? Vitiate certainly uses a fair amount of infiltration to his advantage.
does not go for the same level of political manipulation,
No, we just don't see it on the level Palpatine does. We're told, exhaustively, that Vitiate is a strategic genius par excellence.
and is using entirely different means to achieve his end.So was every Sith of note.
Entirely incorrect. Research please.
See above.
lol
Vitiate's three major powers include Force drain, Force corruption, and possession: Palpatine essentially performed all three chronologically earlier with Dark Empire. Both are dedicated to galactic conquest, immortality, and apotheosis-- goals ascribed to Palpatine long before Vitiate was even conceived. They're both Men Behind The Men who operate like Orcus On His Throne and only become directly involved when absolutely necessary. They have more in common than not and it's not just me who notices.