Originally posted by NemeBro
A. I like pretty much every TES game save Oblivion better.B. My post directly indicated that Avellone can produce quality, and he often does. His work just happens to be fairly samey in tone, which is more or less fine since he does it well.
There is nothing wrong with a character who isn't an emo brooding pile of shit who needs to calm the **** down and lay off the My Chemical Romance. Aveline was one of the best characters in DA2, and she was also one of the most well-adjusted. Same with Varric.
Also, your strawman was relatively subtle, but not below my gaze. No problems at all? When did I say they have to have no problems at all? Even a well-adjusted character can have problems. But when every character in your game has a soap opera-esque dark and tragic past? Well that's just a little silly, and to Avellone's credit he does manage to write this well enough to still make for a good game with good characters, it is all he writes. Seriously, he is not as good as you make him.
Deconstructs things? Sure, but his method towards doing so is sort of lazy and ignoring context. Some cursory knowledge of Taoism would have rendered his silly deconstruction of the Force in Kotor 2 entirely pointless. And does, mind you.
A) Why? All the books and shit that are incredibly poorly connected to the actual game? As opposed to NV where the lore is extremely well-integrated into character interactions and setting.
B) I didn't say that you didn't say that he couldn't.
I meant personality problems. Aveline is an ok character but shes also kind of boring. Her big problem is being too stupid to get a boyfriend. Ohhh, tone it down on the high fantasy adventure DA2. The point is that in these kinds of RPG's you need a reason to actually want to talk to these characters and learn shit about them. Characters without personality flaws aren't too interesting to explore in this manner.
You are seriously overstating the characters being emo brooding twats. They really aren't. Atton broods a sum total of one ****ing conversation. The rest of the time he's a sarcastic and flippant ass. The vast majority of his characters aren't brooding at all. Mostly snarky, like you said. Other than Boone, none of the characters brood in NV. The same with NWN2.
Not every character has a dark and tragic past in Avellones games. Cass doesn't, other than being a big ol drunky. Veronica's past isn't that bad either. And Boones backstory is ****ing hilarious! And Brianna, Mical, Mira, HK and G0-T0 don't have tragic pasts as I recall. And other characters from his other games that I can't remember or didn't play so **** you.
Nah man. His deconstructions are cool. You're ignoring all his clever little deconstructions of gameplay mechanics. Which are pretty brilliant.
Also Planescape and Mask of the Betrayer have the best evil routes of any RPG imo.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
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Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, Whedon's particularly good at allegory. Like Angelus being a really grimdark allegory of when a girl sleeps with a guy and he acts like a huge douchebag afterwards.
AKA, thats pretty lame bro.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseKreia didn't bother me. While I don't agree with her philosophy, she's a hell of a lot better written than Campy Demon of the Week, or Girl Who Kicks Ass With No Shoes On.
You can't name any campy demons of the week, lol.
Several. While snark is liberally applied in some cases (NWN 2 OC is chock full of it), the main storyline doesn't suffer for it. Meanwhile, Whedon can't even write The Avengers without me going "God, I wish this superhero collage film would have less obvious snark".
The Avengers was a pretty fun movie, but that's all, true. Whedon himself agrees with that opinion. 👆
I don't follow.
Have you played either game?
Calm down.
I'm pretty calm.
Wow, that's so deep. No wonder you like it; all those douchebag alpha guys who jilted you.
So can I take it that your intense loathing of Whedon is due to not really watching any of his works?
I mean sure, there are big problems. The very notion of Whedon being a feminist icon is a tragedy against God, for example. But a single short conversation with you reveals that you don't really have any legitimate idea of what goes on in his shows.
Originally posted by Nephthys
A) Why? All the books and shit that are incredibly poorly connected to the actual game? As opposed to NV where the lore is extremely well-integrated into character interactions and setting.
No, mostly due to the superior setting and game world, having the most realistic unto itself fantasy setting in gaming, and frankly because only pussies use guns, real men fight with blades.
Beware arguing this point with me Nephthys. Unlike you, I've played both NV and pre-Oblivion TES games. I hold the high ground.
B) I didn't say that you didn't say that he couldn't.
You did.
I meant personality problems. Aveline is an ok character but shes also kind of boring. Her big problem is being too stupid to get a boyfriend. Ohhh, tone it down on the high fantasy adventure DA2.
Plus she rigidly adheres to the letter of the law and has troubles going against it. She's also far more entertaining than edgemasters such as, I dunno, Atton.
The point is that in these kinds of RPG's you need a reason to actually want to talk to these characters and learn shit about them. Characters without personality flaws aren't too interesting to explore in this manner.
Now I understand that you're only slightly above the IQ line separating average intelligence and mental retardation Nephthys, but please refrain from forcing me to repeat myself.
Characters can have flaws without being edgy emodrones.
You are seriously overstating the characters being emo brooding twats. They really aren't. Atton broods a sum total of one ****ing conversation. The rest of the time he's a sarcastic and flippant ass. The vast majority of his characters aren't brooding at all. Mostly snarky, like you said.
Snark is the go-to brooding edgemaster defense mechanism.
Other than Boone, none of the characters brood in NV. The same with NWN2.
Uh, Raul broods if you really get to know him, angsting about his past and about his age. Cass spent weeks brooding into her beer mug before you picked her up. Veronica broods about the self-inflicted plight of the Brotherhood. Arcade Gannon and Lily don't really brood so much as they have tragic as **** edgy backstories and endings.
Not every character has a dark and tragic past in Avellones games. Cass doesn't, other than being a big ol drunky.
Her father walked out on her when she was a child and she's been drinking herself to death because all of her buddies were recently vaporized.
Veronica's past isn't that bad either.
She's a lesbian who was forced to separate from her lover due to prejudiced parents and had to watch as her role model slowly slipped into madness and got a large chunk of the Brotherhood killed, and she agonizes over the slow extinction of the order. Come on man, you're making this easy.
And Boones backstory is ****ing hilarious!
If you found Boone's backstory funny that is just another failing of Avellone's as a writer.
And Brianna,
She was always ostracized by the rest of her sisters and never felt at home, so in her rebellious teenager ways she decided to leave home on an edgy quest with her edgy buddy the Exile. Not as loltragic as others, but it's there.
Mical,
Man **** the Disciple. Who the **** ever took him over Brianna?
Mira,
So generic she couldn't even keep an edge.
HK and G0-T0 don't have tragic pasts as I recall.
They're ****ing robots.
And other characters from his other games that I can't remember or didn't play so **** you.
Calm down.
Nah man. His deconstructions are cool. You're ignoring all his clever little deconstructions of gameplay mechanics. Which are pretty brilliant.
Drakengard did that better though.
Also Planescape and Mask of the Betrayer have the best evil routes of any RPG imo.
Haven't gotten far enough into Planescape to comment and MotB I've never played.
Originally posted by NemeBro
No, mostly due to the superior setting and game world, having the most realistic unto itself fantasy setting in gaming, and frankly because only pussies use guns, real men fight with blades.Beware arguing this point with me Nephthys. Unlike you, I've played both NV and pre-Oblivion TES games. I hold the high ground.
Eh, I guess thats subjective. I find Fallouts setting to be much more interesting than TES's. Its just got more potential for interesting stories and characters imo. Also real men punch Deathclaws heads off. estahuh
I've played Morrowind. It was ****ing awesome.
Originally posted by NemeBro
You did.
I didn't.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Plus she rigidly adheres to the letter of the law and has troubles going against it. She's also far more entertaining than edgemasters such as, I dunno, Atton.
oh hey how interesting i guess whatever
I liked Atton's backstory. It was an interesting perspective on the troops who actually followed Revan and fell with him. And I really liked the whole thing with the Jedi. Really well written. Also I don't even know what an edgemaster is.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Now I understand that you're only slightly above the IQ line separating average intelligence and mental retardation Nephthys, but please refrain from forcing me to repeat myself.Characters can have flaws without being edgy emodrones.
Lol, u mad.
No shit. But you're criticising Avellone for always writing dysfunctional characters. I'm just pointing out that dysfunctional characters are interesting characters.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Snark is the go-to brooding edgemaster defense mechanism.
Oh you mean like all of Whedon's characters? Oh snap, you better go fill a ****in' bucket cuz I just started some SICK FIRES YO!
Originally posted by NemeBro
Uh, Raul broods if you really get to know him, angsting about his past and about his age. Cass spent weeks brooding into her beer mug before you picked her up. Veronica broods about the self-inflicted plight of the Brotherhood. Arcade Gannon and Lily don't really brood so much as they have tragic as **** edgy backstories and endings.
Of course characters are going to be sad when talking about awful thinsg that happened in thier past. But most of the time he's upbeat and all spanish and shit. Only cuz Cass was literally stuck there. Veronica's worried about the Brotherhood and thinking about how it can survive, she doesn't really brood over it.
Not every tragic backstory is edgy. Get tf over yourself.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Her father walked out on her when she was a child and she's been drinking herself to death because all of her buddies were recently vaporized.
And her whole response to it is 'yeah whatevs I guess he was a douche or something'. And shes mainly drinking cuz she has ****all else to do.
Originally posted by NemeBro
She's a lesbian who was forced to separate from her lover due to prejudiced parents and had to watch as her role model slowly slipped into madness and got a large chunk of the Brotherhood killed, and she agonizes over the slow extinction of the order. Come on man, you're making this easy.
And again, shes already pretty much dealt with all that by the time you meet her. The only thing she's still hung up about is the future of the Brotherhood and shes pretty proactive about the whole thing.
Originally posted by NemeBro
If you found Boone's backstory funny that is just another failing of Avellone's as a writer.
It was a motherfukcing joke, edgy mcedginson.
Originally posted by NemeBro
She was always ostracized by the rest of her sisters and never felt at home, so in her rebellious teenager ways she decided to leave home on an edgy quest with her edgy buddy the Exile. Not as loltragic as others, but it's there.
Lol, oh how tragic.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Man **** the Disciple. Who the **** ever took him over Brianna?
People who played female Exiles. 🙁
Originally posted by NemeBro
So generic she couldn't even keep an edge.
Hey, I liked Mira. She was a bit boring.... maybe becuase she had no real personality problems to explore. :I
Originally posted by NemeBro
They're ****ing robots.
Robots have backstories too you racist.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Drakengard did that better though.
When did Drakengard deconstruct gameplay?
Originally posted by NemeBro
Haven't gotten far enough into Planescape to comment and MotB I've never played.
Its pretty dang cool (MotB). You can do some hardcore evil and subtle manipulations of your party members and in the end you go on to attack and eat several gods.