Dave
One of these days I'll look for those images that makes Europe suck.
haermm
Dave
YouTube video
You mad bro?
Obviously those statements were made in jest, but as far as any comparison involving Xenogears/saga/blade and Mass Effect 1 goes, that is one I am very free to make, and ME1 is simply not anywhere near as good from a storytelling perspective (it certainly couldn't dream of reaching the heights of Xenogears).
I get the impression you haven't played any of the Xeno games btw.
*Major spoilers for Xenogears*
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Could you describe how Xeno-story telling is superior to Bioware storytelling without using adjectives?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Back you up dat shit Astor. You lyin' motherf*cker, Zenogears ain't all dat. If you think its so great, post something not incredibly lamely preemptively written to explain what makes it great.
It simply reaches far greater heights than something like Mass Effect 1 (which has a pretty formulaic and generic story/universe). It's actually pretty unparalleled for a videogame in how it manages to model its entire story on interesting philosophical and psychological themes.
Take for example how it explores the Oedipus complex and the underlying theme of returning to how things began/when things were one. Not only is this explored in numerous ways but it shapes the very central conflict that drives the story forward. That is, the conflict between Deus and The Wave Existence. Deus, a rogue artificial intelligence, had been disassembled and desired to be put back together again and made whole, while TWE was an omnipresent being from a higher dimension that had been trapped in this lower dimension by Deus into the Zohar, which was what Deus used as an energy source, and desired to be freed back to his higher dimension where everything was one. They both collectively create and influence humanity to achieve their respective goals, to return to a state of oneness, and that conflict shapes literally everything that happens in the game.
Abel, the only survivor of the crash of the Eldridge (which is what brought Deus and TWE to the planet), makes contact with TWE through the Zohar. He had been looking for his mother, and TWE creates a mother figure for him, and grants him power so that he might one day be able to free him. Deus, in opposition, splits The Mother into two entities, creating the Miang entity which would be his agent (and leaving behind another distinct entity, Elly), as well as creating Cain and the entire Gazel Ministry. TWE grants Abel and Elly the power to continuously reincarnate until they manage to free him, while Cain and The Gazel Ministry create humanity by breeding with Miang. Cain and TGM are made immortal, while Miang, being the mother of humanity, has the capacity to be reborn in any female and continuously reincarnates throughout history just as Abel and Elly do. It is likewise made to be in humanity's nature to return to a state of oneness (which serves as the basis for humanity's Oedipus complex). Likewise, Fei and Elly fall in love, and given that Elly had originally been a part of the mother figure that TWE had personally made for him, this serves as the basis for his Oedipus complex (even though he does see Elly as a new entity and doesn't even know that she had come from that mother figure, though she did resemble her in appearance). This essentially creates a Nietzschean eternal recurrence of the very same conflict between Deus and TWE, carried out throughout humanity's history on the planet between Abel and Elly, and the immortal Cain, TGM and Miang, until the conflict is resolved.
So Deus's plan is to oversee the evolution of humanity to the point where he can absorb all of humanity into himself and be made whole again, and TWE plans to use Abel and Elly to free him from the Zohar, so that he can return to his higher dimension where he is all that exists. This is also effectively a conflict between a godlike being (TWE) and something of a false God (Deus) and such Nietzschean ideals of God and religious themes colour a large portion of the game's schemes and sociology.
We also see this explored in Abel's fourth incarnation, Fei, who suffers from dissociative identity disorder, and throughout the game struggles with resolving his multiple personalities and returning to a state of oneness. Similarly, Grahf, the remnant of Abel's third incarnation, Lacan, is incomplete until he joins Fei and is made one again. Prior to that, Grahf had essentially embodied the Nietzschean will to power and sought to return to a state of oneness by orchestrating the death of God, and killing every living being on the planet, so that he was all that remained and didn't have to uphold the values of God. Ramsus, a clone of Cain, similarly seeks to return to a state of oneness by having Cain killed. He also had a failed contact with TWE, and believing that it was simply an incomplete contact because Fei had already made contact, he also sought to destroy Fei so that as a contact of TWE he would be made whole.
Something else Xenogears succeeds at is in being hands down the greatest love story in videogame history and the romance between Fei and Elly further embodies the themes I've been talking about. Their love, persists throughout the history of humanity, and is itself eternally recurring, with the same tragedy taking place every time (Elly would always end up dying in the process of saving Abel's life). The underlying theme of the Oedipus complex, the return to a state of oneness, is mirrored in the notion of love itself, with the idea that two people coming together in love become one. We see this symbolised by the legend of two one winged angels, a male and female, both unable to fly on their own, but together able to, and Abel and Elly eventually take this form themselves when they travel to the higher dimension. The theme is further mirrored in the central notion of unity among humanity itself, and the coming together of Kislev and Aveh, and the other nations of the world, to stop Deus. The eternal recurrence of Miang being reborn in women also takes a few interesting turns; for example, at the time of the Zeboim civilization, she gets reborn in a pair of identical twins but as a single entity (that effectively communicates telepathically rather than sharing the same perspective), and uses it to her advantage in her role as Deus's agent - Miang would then return to being one in her next incarnation.
The manner in which the conflict climaxes, and is resolved also reflects these themes. Resolution of the Oedipus complex involves returning to a state of oneness, and identification with the same sex parent. Throughout history Elly and Miang, who had originally been one before Deus split them, had been on different sides and persisted in different manners (all women having the capacity for Miang to be reborn in them, Elly granted the power to persistently reincarnate by TWE). However, Elly would still reincarnate into a female that descended from the same line of humanity that originated with Miang and Cain/TGM. As such, Elly's subsequent incarnations all had the capacity for Miang to take over, which is exactly what happens, and was one of Deus's final moves in his plan to absorb humanity into him, which was realised in a return to oneness for the original mother figure created by TWE. However, it is the returning to a state of oneness for Fei (by resolving his DID) and identification with his father (after merging with Grahf, who had taken over Kahn, Fei's father), that enables Fei and Elly to free TWE from the Zohar and finally put an end to the conflict.
The main conflict of the game begins and ends, and is mirrored throughout its history, by the central theme and is explored numerous times and in a number of interesting manners, being incorporated into a number of Nietzschean ideals, and a love story that spans millenia. Mass Effect 1 doesn't come close to reaching such heights.
That it reaches such great heights still hardly touches on what makes the story so great imo anyway; the characters are all extremely well developed and interesting, the plot is very dense with important themes and high concepts and the schemes are incredibly layered, and I really can't overstate how good a job the music does in conveying emotion and setting the tone. But really, the single thing that probably affected me most in the story is the romance between Fei and Elly. A love story that extended millennia, two people who were literally destined to be together by the influence of godly beings, the way Elly would always end up dying in the process of saving Abel's life and leaving him alone in the world, the struggles they faced together.
Originally posted by Astor EbligisYou've listed reasons for why you think the Xeno stuff is good.
*Major spoilers for Xenogears*It simply reaches far greater heights than something like Mass Effect 1 (which has a pretty formulaic and generic story/universe). It's actually pretty unparalleled for a videogame in how it manages to model its entire story on interesting philosophical and psychological themes.
Take for example how it explores the Oedipus complex and the underlying theme of returning to how things began/when things were one. Not only is this explored in numerous ways but it shapes the very central conflict that drives the story forward. That is, the conflict between Deus and The Wave Existence. Deus, a rogue artificial intelligence, had been disassembled and desired to be put back together again and made whole, while TWE was an omnipresent being from a higher dimension that had been trapped in this lower dimension by Deus into the Zohar, which was what Deus used as an energy source, and desired to be freed back to his higher dimension where everything was one. They both collectively create and influence humanity to achieve their respective goals, to return to a state of oneness, and that conflict shapes literally everything that happens in the game.
Abel, the only survivor of the crash of the Eldridge (which is what brought Deus and TWE to the planet), makes contact with TWE through the Zohar. He had been looking for his mother, and TWE creates a mother figure for him, and grants him power so that he might one day be able to free him. Deus, in opposition, splits The Mother into two entities, creating the Miang entity which would be his agent (and leaving behind another distinct entity, Elly), as well as creating Cain and the entire Gazel Ministry. TWE grants Abel and Elly the power to continuously reincarnate until they manage to free him, while Cain and The Gazel Ministry create humanity by breeding with Miang. Cain and TGM are made immortal, while Miang, being the mother of humanity, has the capacity to be reborn in any female and continuously reincarnates throughout history just as Abel and Elly do. It is likewise made to be in humanity's nature to return to a state of oneness (which serves as the basis for humanity's Oedipus complex). Likewise, Fei and Elly fall in love, and given that Elly had originally been a part of the mother figure that TWE had personally made for him, this serves as the basis for his Oedipus complex (even though he does see Elly as a new entity and doesn't even know that she had come from that mother figure, though she did resemble her in appearance). This essentially creates a Nietzschean eternal recurrence of the very same conflict between Deus and TWE, carried out throughout humanity's history on the planet between Abel and Elly, and the immortal Cain, TGM and Miang, until the conflict is resolved.
So Deus's plan is to oversee the evolution of humanity to the point where he can absorb all of humanity into himself and be made whole again, and TWE plans to use Abel and Elly to free him from the Zohar, so that he can return to his higher dimension where he is all that exists. This is also effectively a conflict between a godlike being (TWE) and something of a false God (Deus) and such Nietzschean ideals of God and religious themes colour a large portion of the game's schemes and sociology.
We also see this explored in Abel's fourth incarnation, Fei, who suffers from dissociative identity disorder, and throughout the game struggles with resolving his multiple personalities and returning to a state of oneness. Similarly, Grahf, the remnant of Abel's third incarnation, Lacan, is incomplete until he joins Fei and is made one again. Prior to that, Grahf had essentially embodied the Nietzschean will to power and sought to return to a state of oneness by orchestrating the death of God, and killing every living being on the planet, so that he was all that remained and didn't have to uphold the values of God. Ramsus, a clone of Cain, similarly seeks to return to a state of oneness by having Cain killed. He also had a failed contact with TWE, and believing that it was simply an incomplete contact because Fei had already made contact, he also sought to destroy Fei so that as a contact of TWE he would be made whole.
Something else Xenogears succeeds at is in being hands down the greatest love story in videogame history and the romance between Fei and Elly further embodies the themes I've been talking about. Their love, persists throughout the history of humanity, and is itself eternally recurring, with the same tragedy taking place every time (Elly would always end up dying in the process of saving Abel's life). The underlying theme of the Oedipus complex, the return to a state of oneness, is mirrored in the notion of love itself, with the idea that two people coming together in love become one. We see this symbolised by the legend of two one winged angels, a male and female, both unable to fly on their own, but together able to, and Abel and Elly eventually take this form themselves when they travel to the higher dimension. The theme is further mirrored in the central notion of unity among humanity itself, and the coming together of Kislev and Aveh, and the other nations of the world, to stop Deus. The eternal recurrence of Miang being reborn in women also takes a few interesting turns; for example, at the time of the Zeboim civilization, she gets reborn in a pair of identical twins but as a single entity (that effectively communicates telepathically rather than sharing the same perspective), and uses it to her advantage in her role as Deus's agent - Miang would then return to being one in her next incarnation.
The manner in which the conflict climaxes, and is resolved also reflects these themes. Resolution of the Oedipus complex involves returning to a state of oneness, and identification with the same sex parent. Throughout history Elly and Miang, who had originally been one before Deus split them, had been on different sides and persisted in different manners (all women having the capacity for Miang to be reborn in them, Elly granted the power to persistently reincarnate by TWE). However, Elly would still reincarnate into a female that descended from the same line of humanity that originated with Miang and Cain/TGM. As such, Elly's subsequent incarnations all had the capacity for Miang to take over, which is exactly what happens, and was one of Deus's final moves in his plan to absorb humanity into him, which was realised in a return to oneness for the original mother figure created by TWE. However, it is the returning to a state of oneness for Fei (by resolving his DID) and identification with his father (after merging with Grahf, who had taken over Kahn, Fei's father), that enables Fei and Elly to free TWE from the Zohar and finally put an end to the conflict.
The main conflict of the game begins and ends, and is mirrored throughout its history, by the central theme and is explored numerous times and in a number of interesting manners, being incorporated into a number of Nietzschean ideals, and a love story that spans millenia. Mass Effect 1 doesn't come close to reaching such heights.
You have not compared and contrasted it to what Bioware's writing has brought to the table, which is what I asked you do.
Please do so, and again, no adjectives.