Originally posted by Red Nemesis
First off, how are you (how is he- I don't expect a response from him) still posting? That name is supposed to be off limits since "another" user already has it!
To whom are you referring to? I do not know of this “Taven.”
Second, 'The Drew' is a terrible writer.
In Caps Lock this time: RATHER THAN AS A WRITER, WHAT’S STOVER LIKE AS A STORYTELLER? ANYTHING COMPARABLE TO THE DREW?
It's pretty obvious I was commenting on his ability as a storyteller. Nobody cares about your opinion on how good a writer he is. Now this is exactly why you get flamed.
His sentence structure is terrible,
This is me not caring. 🥷
his plotline was obvious from a mile away
Which one? If you’re referring to PoD, it was a re-adaptation of an already established story, and as such we knew where it was roughly going. Other than that, there wasn’t any real huge revelation in the book for anything to be especially predictable. As for RoT, there was absolutely no hints or implications in general whatsoever for any of the major plot points in the novel. Absolutely no hints as for how Bane was going to have the orbalisks removed from his body; that it was his own lightning was totally unsuspecting. The ending of the book, and how Bane and Zannah were able to trick the Jedi wasn’t in any way predictable, literally nothing hinted as to what was going to happen. Am I missing any other major plot point that would allow for room for predictability? Really, what was so predictable?
and Bane is possibly the least compelling creation in the mythos. (Revan excepted.)
This is laughable. Bane’s the most creative and well developed character the EU has to offer. There’s by far more depth to his character than anyone else in the mythos; the struggle he goes through on his path to the darkside, the general progression of his character, the manner in which he was basically manipulating everyone at the same time without them realising it etc.. There was far more to his character than certainly anybody else so far explored.
The books aren't good.
Please. Books of fiction are primarily judged by what they represent as stories. And while I wasn’t that big a fan of the second, the duology was a much improved addition to the series after the numerous overly heavy, tediously descriptive, dull and slow moving multitude of books that most of the EU encompasses. Not to be rude, but you haven’t even come close to substantiating any of what you just said. As stories, and as a storyteller, the Bane duology and The Drew are the best that LFL has to offer.
Great Red, you started Neb on another Bane/Drew rant. 😠 ..........................meh 😐
Edit:
As for RoT, there was absolutely no hints or implications in general whatsoever for any of the major plot points in the novel.
Edit #2: @ Gideon, are the mandalorian(S?)/clone trooper more bearable to read since Karen Traviss didn't write them in LSSM?
Originally posted by The Taven
What was predictable about those? I could be missing something, as it has been some time since I read the novels, and I only read the second one the one time, but I don't remember anything especially important being predictable.
I was expecting the orbalisks and Nadd's holocron to be in there since they were in the Bane comics.. T
Though right after he acquired them I had no clue what their importance would be in the rest of the novel which the orbalisks were atleast,(not sure about Nadd's holocron other then he got the orbalisks while trying to retrieve it) to the story, such as Zannah disgusing herself as jedi to enter the jedi temple and research the orbalisks in the jedi archives, then getting spotted by her cousin there which sets up the duel at the end of the book.
The Mandalorians are captured much better here, in my personal opinion, and Stover works them into the story elements in a manner far better than Traviss -- and he doesn't 'wankify' them. He recognizes them as a race of extremely talented and dangerous mercenaries, but they aren't gods. Fenn Shysa, the current Mandalore, is written as a dangerous but likeable fellow.
My problem with Traviss writing Mandalorians and Boba Fett stems from the problem I have with Zahn writing Chiss and Grand Admiral Thrawn. Zahn is an egotist of the highest order who takes every available opportunity to fellate Thrawn from the most subtle things -- for example, all Imperial and even New Republic officials are referred to by surnames only: "Palpatine," "Vader," "Mothma," "Zsinj," or whatever -- but not Thrawn. It is always Grand Admiral Thrawn as if he is the only one amongst them deserving a title. Then we have some farfetched beliefs, such as Thrawn being a more capable political strategist than the Emperor when, in truth, Palpatine's concept of military strategy seems to eclipse Thrawn's own (given the relative success of Operation Shadow Hand). Traviss is the same way with Fett when the truth is that Boba Fett spent months in a Sarlaac pit on Tattooine when he was knocked aside by a blinded Han Solo. Is he badass? Sure. But any capable Force user could crush him.
Karpyshyn has that same issue. He went well out of his way to attribute a title and a Sith philosophy to Revan rather than where canon actually put it -- Bane. And then he went out of his way to fellate Revan some more as an entity with "teh uber frightening!!1!" knowledge of the dark side, never mind that Revan spent... what... a couple of years as a Dark Lord of the Sith? It defies all manner of logic and reason, but that's what happens when you have vain authors take liberties with their characters. It undermined the story completely by crediting all of Bane's accomplishments to Revan; it wasn't Bane's idea at all. He was just the tool to implement it.
Now, despite that, I rather liked Path of Destruction. It had a decent plot, decent characters, and they highlighted that Bane could be quite the moron with his near death at the hands of Githany's poison. But that's all that needed to be said about the character; his tales with Zannah aren't worthy of a second and third book.
Karpyshyn's original works are terrific: Mass Effect kicks the shit out of all KotOR games; and the reason is because he is in his own element and can't undermine previously existing characters with his wankery.
But when it comes to writing Star Wars? No. He does not, in any way, shape, or form compare to Matthew Stover. Ever. And as far as Bane being the most interesting character in the EU, he's not. He might be up there, but he's not.
As a storyteller. And Bane is explored in more ways that any other character out there. We witness the entire transformation he goes through to the dark side, it's done in a realistic manner with the path being somewhat of a struggle, where he constantly felt guilty after committing some of his earlier evil acts, and then slowly but surely starts understanding the true nature of the dark side. We also see him transform from somewhat of a follower to leader, student to teacher, weakling to most powerful Force User in the Galaxy. Then we get the entire struggle he goes through in Ro2 with the orbalisks, and how they were slowly weakening him and could potentially kill him. Considering who he is and what he becomes, we see him in a more vulnerable state than you could ever expect from such a character, we see him play more roles than pretty much any character out there; there was quite simply more to his character and greater depth there than there was for any other.
And as far as Bane being the most interesting character in the EU, he's not. He might be up there, but he's not.
WHAT!?!?! (one one one one) Bane is a whiny punk with the worst attempt at characterization I've ever seen. Telling your audience that your main character idolizes X sith lord =/= characterization.
Originally posted by Taven
As a storyteller. And Bane is explored in more ways that any other character out there. We witness the entire transformation he goes through to the dark side, it's done in a realistic manner with the path being somewhat of a struggle, where he constantly felt guilty after committing some of his earlier evil acts, and then slowly but surely starts understanding the true nature of the dark side. We also see him transform from somewhat of a follower to leader, student to teacher, weakling to most powerful Force User in the Galaxy. Then we get the entire struggle he goes through in Ro2 with the orbalisks, and how they were slowly weakening him and could potentially kill him. Considering who he is and what he becomes, we see him in a more vulnerable state than you could ever expect from such a character, we see him play more roles than pretty much any character out there; there was quite simply more to his character and greater depth there than there was for any other.
We're going to have to agree to disagree here, because I simply fail to see that sort of depth in Bane's character. Of course, my vision might be clouded by the haze of anger I get from the fact that Karpyshyn credited some unknown hack of a Sith Lord with an idea that was supposed to be the product of Bane's originality.
I find characters like Mara Jade, Lumiya, Pellaeon, Turr Phennir, and so forth to be much more interesting.
I've read quite a few segments form Shatterpoint, including the beginning, and Stover's ability as a storyteller was nothing special. He epitomises what I was referring to with the overly heavy writing, to the point where it detracted from the plot.
Now this I can agree with. It used to make the RotS novelization so damn boring when he went masturbating to overindulge his sense of philosophy. But now I can appreciate it and he tones it down for LSatSoM.
I think I complained about that before.
Anywho, I spent fifteen minutes randomly searching for a plot summary of SoM when I came across this thread at TFN. Some guy named 'Merkulian' or something was trying to argue that Palpatine was having nightmares about Luke. Some other guy was rebutting that argument, and I suddenly found everything to be rather familiar. I didn't actually look at the username of the latter until the phrase "cover our posteriors" came up.
Lo and behold, it was (Sir) Gideon. I was like, WTF?
But yeah. I should read this.
Originally posted by The Taven
LMAO
Yeah, I got banned for that one. It was spearheaded by a guy by the name of Charlemagne19; he's a friend of LS's. And a total moron. He says Vader was intended to be the ultimate Imperial and ultimate Sith bar Palpatine, ergo he's better at everyone at everything and only Palpatine is better than him.
Christ.
Another good one was when everyone said that the Sith didn't die at Endor and that Lumiya, Caedus, Krayt and company were just as legitimate as the other Sith Lords. They outright said that if someone wants to be a Sith, all they have to do is want to be one.
So I told them to start calling me Darth Gideon, Master of the Sith, and rank me up there with the greats. I told them they were turning the Sith from an exclusive cult to a Myspace group.
Got banned for it.
Originally posted by Faunus
I think I complained about that before.Anywho, I spent fifteen minutes randomly searching for a plot summary of SoM when I came across this thread at TFN. Some guy named 'Merkulian' or something was trying to argue that Palpatine was having nightmares about Luke. Some other guy was rebutting that argument, and I suddenly found everything to be rather familiar. I didn't actually look at the username of the latter until the phrase "cover our posteriors" came up.
Lo and behold, it was (Sir) Gideon. I was like, WTF?
But yeah. I should read this.
These guys are great for getting spoilers. That's about it.