The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by The Ellimist3,287 pages

Let's keep in mind what your actual claim throughout this post is supposed to be: that race is a social construct with no biological basis. It is not "some races have more genetic variation than others" or "you can draw the lines a little differently if you wanted to", or "look I can quote trivia!". If a point you make does not facilitate this claim, it is irrelevant.

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Indeed, before we start I want to give a simple thought experiments that is my litmus test for whether race isn't socially constructed by my definition of the word.

If you fed to a really capable machine learning program a bunch of data on individuals' typical racial classifications, and asked it to determine a set of practical actions that are as genetically determined as possible, like which medicine to describe or how tall the sample is likely to be on average, would the race variable encode any useful information to improve its predictive power? Would the program even bother to use it?

The answer is, obviously yes.

Here's a more case specific one:

If you had someone's genome and, in a double blind test, had to predict which race they identified with, would you be able to predict it at a fairly reliable rate? The answer is obviously yes, as we can do these genetic tests all the time. We can test for ancestry and this is highly correlated to what race they happen to identify with.

If it were just a "social construct", it would not have predictive power even in areas that aren't socially constructed. It's not just skin color.

Originally posted by The Lost
The way science groups races is not genetically based, to be fair. "Race" is not
even accepted within biological codes of nomenclature. If we go down the genetic route, a majority of races would classify as African, considering Africa is the continent with the most genetic diversity on our planet. This isn't done because races are grouped by visible traits rather than genetic. This why all Africans are grouped into a single race (they're black).

Totally irrelevant filler. All you're establishing is that the racial groups each encapsulate an uneven range of genetic variance. That different groups capture a different sample space of possibilities doesn't invalidate the idea that there are biological differences between them. And here we have the first example of the sophistry rampant throughout your post: you pick at "issues" with the classification scheme without explaining how they prove it was "socially constructed".

You are, furthermore, assuming that the only valid criteria for categorizing people is direct gene-level variance, when the relevant consequences are the PHENOTYPIC EXPRESSIONS. (that would include behavioral traits in this context) What's wrong with categorizing by phenotype, again? I don't care if this is the best way to do it from the standpoint of genetics because "it's not the best possible categorization" does not mean "it is a social construct".

Now with regards to phenotypic expression, it is not the case that black populations have greater variances in measurable traits than most other ones. So your claim is merely that we could employ a different metric if we wanted to, not that it is socially constructed.


Even "Jew" and "Arab" are used as racial terms but there is no substantial genetic difference when you compare a majority of Israeli Jews and Palestinians. Yet, with the two former words, they are used as racial terms when it's not at all genetically descriptive.

There are clear phenotypic differences between most Jews and most caucasians.


The problem with terminology is that it is seemingly far too generalizing to be useful as it corresponds to skin pigmentation and little else.

Nonsense. Different racial groups have different propensities to various diseases, and different distributions of height, weight, bone structure, etc.

What's more, the fact that pigmentations in western Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. were, up until very recently, almost uniformly their respective stereotypical colors is a pretty obvious sign that there was not significant breeding between the typically designated racial groups (white, black, Asian, etc.) until only briefly in the timeframe of homo sapiens. And no, case specific exceptions don't disprove the rule. I don't know how this could've even been a question that East Asians and Caucasians weren't breeding with each other in large quantities tens of thousands of years ago when there isn't evidence that they knew of each other's existence until the late bronze / classical era.

And now, repeat with me again: that there is a lot of IN-GROUP variation has nothing to do with whether there is BETWEEN-GROUP variation.


It's altered so much historically, it has seemingly lost any meaningful significance when used biologically. "Race", as a term, carries a lot of weight and served some uses as informal terminology within scientific community but it's purely pragmatic. It usually is used by scientists where specificity is not a necessity (broad group studies, surveys, and the like).

Concession accepted, as it is only ever pragmatic in Science because there are differences in the distribution of biological traits between races.


When discussing differences between groups of people with separate geographical ancestries, it seems "ethnicity" would be a more fitting terminology, as "race" (especially in the context of modern scientific study) is only formal in social sciences. It has a really weak grip in modern biology, which is where most people lose their footing when trying to establish race beyond the realm of social construction. It's been phased out, in terms of of describing phenotypical traits with any concrete formality and meaning. Race has no taxonomic importance any longer within biology, is the long and short of it.

So the one actual argument you make in this paragraph that isn't just a restatement of your conclusion is that we should be using ethnicity instead. Ethnicity can be useful too, but:

1. This isn't mutually exclusive from using race since you admit that it's useful in certain contexts.

2. Ethnicity suffers even more from your complaints about migration and intermixing, given that different ethnicities are far more likely to be fluid between one another than different races, which have only been fluid between one another in recent history.


The consensus of scholars and scientists is that race is socially constructed, non-intrinsic to human beings. The biological application of it, and it's gravitas, is antiquated.

I can actually pretty much guarantee that, as much as you'd accuse "liberals" or others for causing discussions about race to be hamstrung by the sheer tautological distractions of the term "race" and where it fits as a social construct, likely anyone with even intermediate knowledge of sciences where the term is commonly used will tell you it simply doesn't apply where you'd like it to. Again, you'd be better off using "ethnicity."

To digress only for a moment, it's usually also why I dismiss people who propose or argue for scientific racism (A.K.A. "race realism"😉 because I don't have any room to debate beliefs that have been proven to be empirically false. Classifying people of varying and different genotypes/phenotypes into distinct races is (and I use this term with literal certainty) unscientific. The body of work surrounding scientific racism contains too many pseudoscientific disciplines to be even remotely taken seriously.

So here we get to your claim that scientific racism is pseudoscience. Of course, you have yet to give a cogent definition of what "scientific racism" actually is, in your eyes, so I'll ask for it now.

If it's something idiotic like "white people are evolutionarily superior to black people and black people are just like apes", then sure, congrats. If it's something like "there are average group differences between racial groups" though and this is somehow pseudoscience despite all of modern medicine saying otherwise, then I'm going to destroy your case pretty eagerly.


To conclude and go back to my recommendation of ethnicity being a preferable nomenclative alternate to use, the previous POTUS (Obama) is a black person in North America who's biracial in South Africa and the Caribbean and potentially white in some places within Latin America. Seeing as there seems to be a clear disparity in what is considered "black", wouldn't that imply that race, as opposed to ethnicity, has an incredibly strong cultural basis? I mean, among the other things I've mentioned, of course.

Come up with a clear criteria for determining ethnicity then.

(continued from above)


I'd also like to address this specifically because it is incredibly lacking and is historically inaccurate. What you've proclaimed here could perhaps apply to a handful of some relatively obscure island tribes. Largely, humankind was on a genetic/cultural/political gradient. Whites weren't disconnected from differing cultures by some impassible blockade. In all actuality, the native land of Whites (Europe) is a continent (also socially constructed, funny enough) that dissolves into Asia and had to be cut off from Africa at the Suez. Typically, we all engage in a grandiose lie about it's status as a continent to "neatly" fit the historical narrative of Christendom.

Hell, you could jot a line from Iberia (or Scandinavia) to the southern apex of India all the way to Korea (locations where people have lived a few miles from each other) with an individual's religion, language, and more dissipating from majority to minority over a great deal of settlements. I mean, a peasant within the Kievan Rus' under Mongol rule? They would've had no reason to move toward getting clustered more closely with a French-Catholic peasant than with peasants from a village over who would have had differently shaped eyes than him/her by any noticeable metric. Oh, and who might care less in keeping Orthodox rituals and bear a handful of Eastern superstitions but were basically familiar.

Consider this: Between "Asians" or "Whites", who would a Sassanid nobleman be more likely to cluster together with? Precisely the same applies if you span across the Mediterranean, then south upon the Nile into Sudan and Ethiopia. A barrier didn't exists between these places. EVEN taking the most obvious one into consideration (the aforementioned Mediterranean), it was more likely to be the centre that many Empires encircled and utilized as a means to travel hastily, so they could spread to the north and south, as opposed to a border.

If this were true, you'd expect skin pigmentation to be relatively uniformly distributed rather than for clusters to form around particular colors with a minority of hybrid colors.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Btw, it not just intelligence. Ellimist also thinks some races are more disposed to laziness and emotional instability.

Just wanted to put that out there.

Lmfao, I didn't say that. You PM'd me accusing me of it and asking why I cared, and I said everyone answered that for you in the thread, which is true. e.g. that I didn't say that and that it's to measure discrimination effects.

OK, I just saw your reply to the issue of intelligence differences or lack thereof. Please add to the end of your reply these questions:

1. Do you deny that there are measured differences in g between racial groups (regardless of the question of whether this is innate or environmental)?

2. If no, what do you think are the main non-genetic causal factors?

3. Why do we not see these factors manifest in the overwhelming majority of twin adoption studies?

4. Why do you suppose there was differential selection for rates of eye color, skin color, height, bone structure, etc. but no differential selection for non-physical traits?

Those are the "cognitive traits" you argued could be measured genetically in a thread you made arguing that races aren't "innately equal" in cognitive traits.

Come on. 😬

Also you PM'd me first to ***** that I was being unfair to you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those are the "cognitive traits" you argued could be measured genetically in a thread you made arguing that races aren't "innately equal" in cognitive traits.

Are you serious?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those are the "cognitive traits" you argued could be measured genetically in a thread you made arguing that races aren't "innately equal" in cognitive traits.

Come on. 😬

Also you PM'd me first to ***** that I was being unfair to you.

Nonsense. Someone asked me a question about whether any genes are objectively superior to any others, and I said yes (if you take "objectively" colloquially and not on a question of whether an objective morality exists). I didn't necessarily think to tie every possible genetic trait to racial differences because it was a specific question and

Spoiler:
this wasn't specifically about race anyway.

BTW your entire argument in that thread was "what's the practical use of this", and after like 20 repetitions by at least three different debaters you've still refused to acknowledge my answer's existence.

Spoiler:
Because you don't have a response.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Genetic components to intelligence, work ethic, emotional stability, creativity, etc. Of course some of these in extreme or bad configurations can have their problems, but if you could choose whether your child was born predisposed to be moderately hard working or lazy af, you'd pick the former.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f11/t649057.html

Originally posted by The Lost
Are you serious?

Is there a reason why you automatically take everything he says as fact without bothering to ask me for verification or to check the posts yourself?

Could it be that you're more interested in mockery than honest discussion? *gasp*

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f11/t649057.html

You're a f*cking liar. That was a response to a general question of whether value judgments on genes were possible, not on whether black people were better or worse at it than others, kek.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you think that among the major protected classes (race, gender, national identity, etc.) there is a 100% equal distribution of relevant innate cognitive traits that correlate with success in a market system? Why or why not?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you mean everybody as in each group, or everybody as in each individual? Presumably the former as the latter is clearly wrong (there is genetic variation for cognitive traits).
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well I think it's a little sophistic to claim that there are no "superior" variations - unless if we're saying this in a really fundamental way (e.g. no objective morality to dictate it) there are certainly variations that are, on average, much better for modern society. I think we intuitively accept this when we judge people on a daily basis anyway.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Genetic components to intelligence, work ethic, emotional stability, creativity, etc. Of course some of these in extreme or bad configurations can have their problems, but if you could choose whether your child was born predisposed to be moderately hard working or lazy af, you'd pick the former.
Originally posted by The Lost
It's about as captivating to talk to you as it is watching paint dry. You're fucking lucky that thread got deleted (thanks to your racist nonsense) because it saved you from the world-class embarrassment you went through that others could have viewed or that you, from an alternative timeline where you have an iota of self-awareness, could have viewed!

In the words of a not so wise man:

Originally posted by The Lost

Haha, yeah. This is definitely what happened. Keep dreaming.

There's nothing to be learned from you in that thread given that my contribution was merely to post a data sheet describing the variance in monkey DNA and your contribution was to get upset about the fact.

That's it. In an alternate timeline where the thread wasn't deleted, perhaps you could have looked at comments made from The Lost to remind oneself how to correctly conduct themselves in a debate. In other words, not to "refute" arguments where none have been made.

Originally posted by Nephthys

lmao, you'd be better off quoting what I was actually responding to.

Firstly, your reading comprehension failed you on the second quote, as I said the "latter" is wrong as in there is variation between individuals (which is obviously true), "latter" did not refer to not groups.

Secondly, the person in question specifically asked me in-between the third and fourth to list traits that could be better than others in principle, not to list traits that white people have more than black people (???). It wasn't even specifically about race, let alone your imagining that I was comparing specific ones.

Eg., the question was a philosophical one on whether any traits could be considered better than others, not whether X racial group was better than Y group.

But keep showing why people think you're a horrible debater. 👆

Ellimist is triggered again. This is like an all day event of being triggered. Go eat some thing kid you're falling to pieces.

the lost cuck, how about a deal

you stop coming here and we leave ur leftist threads in general discussion alone

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmao, you'd be better off quoting what I was actually responding to.

Firstly, your reading comprehension failed you on the second quote, as I said the "latter" is wrong as in there is variation between [b]individuals (which is obviously true), "latter" did not refer to not groups.

Secondly, the person in question specifically asked me in-between the third and fourth to list traits that could be better than others in principle, not to list traits that white people have more than black people (???). It wasn't even specifically about race, let alone your imagining that I was comparing specific ones.

Eg., the question was a philosophical one on whether any traits could be considered better than others, not whether X racial group was better than Y group.

But keep showing why people think you're a horrible debater. 👆 [/B]

For someone who whines about ad hominems so much you sure do resort to insulting people pretty quickly.

I'm merely posting things that you actually said. If you have a problem with that, maybe try think about the implications of what you're saying first.

quan, don't assault my boy Ellimist. There are better places to direct your energies. 🙂

Originally posted by Nephthys
For someone who whines about ad hominems so much you sure do resort to insulting people pretty quickly.

I'm merely posting things that you actually said. If you have a problem with that, maybe try think about the implications of what you're saying first.

I bet he's already typed his response in 30 seconds while feverishly sweating and musing to himself (I have so got him this time, I am the greatest online debater alive).

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
quan, don't assault my boy Ellimist. There are better places to direct your energies. 🙂
He has brought this on himself. His cowardice will not be forgiven.

Originally posted by Nephthys

I'm merely posting things that you actually said.

You literally bolded a part where I said there was variance between specifically individuals and pretended I was referring to groups.

You either have challenged reading comprehension or you're a liar. It seems like the board consensus on you is that it's both.