The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by The Lost3,287 pages
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is there a reason why you automatically take everything he says as fact without bothering to ask me for verification or to check the posts yourself?

I don't trust you, to be honest. You've already poorly characterized something I said to you, implying I agree with Ziggy of all people and it's seriously making me reconsider engaging you in debate. Besides, even rhetorically, I'm sure you know what "Are you serious" is supposed to imply.

What is wrong with you?

Could it be that you're more interested in mockery than honest discussion? *gasp*

You'll have to forgive me, as I didn't edit it out quickly enough. Gotta work on my Edit Warroring!

Don't throw stones, Ellimist.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You either have challenged reading comprehension or you're a liar. It seems like the board consensus on you is that it's both.

This is the third time you've mentioned what several people think of Neph on this board. What lots of people think isn't necessarily true.

Argumentum ad relaxulum.

Originally posted by The Lost
I don't trust you, to be honest. You've already poorly characterized something I said to you, implying I agree with Ziggy of all people and it's seriously making me reconsider engaging you in debate.

It's not my fault that you tried to be cute and phrased yourself horribly. I asked you if you thought differences exist, you said if you thought they didn't you would say so...and you didn't. The fault is on you, bud.

Then you tried to pretend it was a false application of modus tollens but of course didn't bother to explain how when it's literally a textbook example.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He has brought this on himself. His cowardice will not be forgiven.

Focus on Thor.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not my fault that you tried to be cute and phrased yourself horribly. I asked you if you thought differences exist, you said if you thought they [b]didn't you would say so...and you didn't. The fault is on you, bud. [/B]

No, it is your fault. I was OPENLY being figurative, you missed it, and lost control, which lead to a really abysmal usage of propositional logic.

I know intentions can be challenging to read through text (Poe's law and w/e else) but I gave it figurative emphasis when I repeated the same phrase twice.

Like I said earlier, I'll just fucking add disclaimers next time.

Then you tried to pretend it was a false application of modus tollens but of course didn't bother to explain how when it's literally a textbook example.

Dude, I legit told you why your usage was invalid. Do you honestly need several paragraphs outlining everything?

Ellimist when he's emotional and upset passes his opinion off as the collective hive mind of the board. He insults and lashes out while falsely declaring the dissenter as the worst debater, a liar, what others say about you is true. These are signs he's an emotionally insecure person. He's weak emotionally.

Originally posted by JKBart
the lost cuck, how about a deal

you stop coming here and we leave ur leftist threads in general discussion alone

The lost Cuck really needs to go tbh.

At least our side manages to provide hard evidence when the times calls for it. All he's got is some teenage angst (in his mid 30's) and the power of soy milk running through his veins. Just look at his debate with Ell, the dude is utilising the art of non responding to it's finest degree.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Focus on Thor.
I have enough energy for both. Ellimist can accept a judged one on one debate and I'll stop. If he's such a great debater then prove it.

Originally posted by The Lost

i love how u can go on posting multiple pages worth of text that literally dont answer any point with legit material or at least some strict logic lol

Originally posted by The Lost
No, it is your fault. I was OPENLY being figurative, you missed it, and lost control, which lead to a really abysmal usage of propositional logic.

I know intentions can be challenging to read through text (Poe's law and w/e else) but I gave it figurative emphasis when I repeated the same phrase twice.

Like I said earlier, I'll just fucking add disclaimers next time.

Dude, I legit told you why your usage was invalid. Do you honestly need several paragraphs outlining everything?

Here's a better answer you could've given:

Spoiler:
no.

A person debating in good faith would just go "oh, a misunderstanding, I tried to be cute with a bizarre "figurative" joke and he didn't get it", and not "lol you missed my subtle figure of speech, now I'm going to try to imply that the rest of his rebuttal isn't worth responding to by proxy".

But anyway. Be sure to respond to my questions about your positions on group differences too. 👆

Originally posted by The Lost

This is the third time you've mentioned what several people think of Neph on this board. What lots of people think isn't necessarily true.

Strawman. I said "you did X hence why people think you suck", not "people think you suck therefore you suck". Come on now.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Here's a better answer you could've given:
Spoiler:
no.

A person debating in good faith would just go "oh, a misunderstanding, I tried to be cute and he didn't get it", and not "lol you missed my subtle figure of speech, now I'm going to try to imply that the rest of his rebuttal isn't worth responding to by proxy".

But anyway. Be sure to respond to my questions about your positions on group differences too. 👆

So, I have to be constantly literal or you'll misunderstand? This is essentially what you're telling me. You go on and on about people addressing shit but ignored the fact that your usage of modus tollens is broken because it would be necessary for me to have been literal in order for it to function.

You were so caught up on an opportunity to say something really amazing and latin because latin is so goddamn cool that you missed where it was pretty fucking clear I disagree with the notion that races have any meaningful intellectual differences.

Not going to happen. Our discussion is basically done. You're a slimy fucking dude. Chalk it up as a "win" or a "concession" that you totally earned but you're untrustworthy to talk to. It's a waste of time anyway. I saw your post and it's rife with inconsistencies and actually incorrect information (after laughably claiming I was behind on the science. Great edit speed, btw! 10/10!)

I'll give one example before I finally wash my hands of you. You'll respond. It doesn't matter. It'll be wrong. Here:

There are clear phenotypic differences between most Jews and most caucasians.

Now with regards to phenotypic expression, it is not the case that black populations have greater variances in measurable traits than most other ones. So your claim is merely that we could employ a different metric if we wanted to, not that it is socially constructed.

All you're establishing is that the racial groups each encapsulate an uneven range of genetic variance. That different groups capture a different sample space of possibilities doesn't invalidate the idea that there are biological differences between them. And here we have the first example of the sophistry rampant throughout your post: you pick at "issues" with the classification scheme without explaining how they prove it was "socially constructed".

THERE IS NO METRIC. For a metric to be a metric it has to be standard. Biologists have never agreed on a standard taxonomy for races and it's not my responsibility to prove it's "socially constructed." You asking me to prove that race is "socially constructed" is absolutely laughable. The scientific consensus is that biological essentialism is outmoded and that same community also happen to disfavor explanations concerning race when it comes to differences in behavior/physical traits.

What metric should be used? Skin color? Skull shape? How do you decide what’s a race and what’s a sub-race? If someone is of mixed race, where do you sort them? Is that a new race?

In order for race to be scientific in the sense you obviously propose, it has to be scientifically meaningful in that same context. If no scientists can agree on a way to categorize races, then it’s useless scientifically. Without a scientific foundation, race can only have a social meaning. This is especially true considering it already does. The only remaining argument would be proving biological meaning. That's where it becomes tougher or where someone could come along and quite easily conflate race with what is clearly ethnicity.

But no, you keep on trying to snag "gotcha" moments because you posted a lot of text and made claims without reinforcement, which you apparently detest.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Strawman. I said "you did X hence why people think you suck", not "people think you suck therefore you suck". Come on now.

Yeah, ignore the pun in your quote so you gloss over the fact that it's an OBVIOUS FUCKING JOKE to hamfist as many fallacies as you can into a conversation. You are a poor man's IKC.

In the future, one does not have to tightly follow a syllogism to commit a fallacy. They can be implied.

Fuck, what a waste. You're so disappointing and so dishonest. Jesus.

Ellimist was just

Biologists have never agreed on a standard taxonomy for races

Strawman. There's a huge middle ground between "there could be a better definition of race" and "race is entirely socially constructed.

In order for race to be scientific in the sense you obviously propose, it has to be scientifically meaningful in that same context.

Strawman. You don't need to have a low-level definition to establish that statistical correlations exist. The metaphor I gave that you ignored: I can analyze whether people from Maryland are taller than people from Texas and it doesn't matter that these state lines aren't scientific - the data is still meaningful.

If no scientists can agree on a way to categorize races, then it’s useless scientifically.

It depends. It may be problematic for a rigorous academics, but it is not for answering questions like "what % of the variance in educational outcomes between group X and Y is due to discrimination" because even a wide sample of people's definition of different races tend to lead to similar conclusions and data sets. Saying you don't know whether someone is really black or not is sophistic on the macro-level when dealing with practical matters.

Now care to respond to my questions about alleged differences in g?

Or if you want to throw a hissy fit because nobody thought your figure of speech was clever even when it has nothing to do with actual debate, you're welcome to throw that ad hominem and leave.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ellimist was just

No! That's impossible! He'll post more and respond last because whoever does that, wins! I mean, if I knock someone out by punching them in the face but they hit me last as they were going down, THEY WON!

I dealt with so much of this shit in '05. This hubris-riddled "concession accepted" and trying soooooo hard to appear like a "top tier debater", you'll use terms relating to logical fallacies twice and be wrong both fucking times because you purposely misread someone so you could do it, which is obviously what's really logical!

Dude is stuck in twelve years ago and can't break free. Type of dude that thinks there's this incredible rigidity to debating (you wouldn't even see a formal debate conducted like almost anything that happens here) without realizing it's fundamental flexibility. This is, of course, if it's done decently.

I just don't have the get-up-and-go for this type of terrible argumentation any longer. Grew out of it, I guess. You'll notice he's done addressing his little "modus tollens" snafu and has just moved onto insulting how I was clearly figurative. He might grow out of this type of shit too, depending on how old he is. Probably not, though.

Edgy. 🙂

Originally posted by The Lost
No! That's impossible! He'll post more and respond last because whoever does that, wins! I mean, if I knock someone out by punching them in the face but they hit me last as they were going down, THEY WON!

I dealt with so much of this shit in '05. This hubris-riddled "concession accepted" and trying soooooo hard to appear like a "top tier debater", you'll use terms relating to logical fallacies twice and be wrong both fucking times because you purposely misread someone so you could do it, which is obviously what's really logical!

Dude is stuck in twelve years ago and can't break free. Type of dude that thinks there's this incredible rigidity to debating (you wouldn't even see a formal debate conducted like almost anything that happens here) without realizing it's fundamental flexibility. This is, of course, if it's done decently.

I just don't have the get-up-and-go for this type of terrible argumentation any longer. Grew out of it, I guess. You'll notice he's done addressing his little "modus tollens" snafu and has just moved onto insulting how I was clearly figurative. He might grow out of this type of shit too, depending on how old he is. Probably not, though.

Lmao, you run around insulting me in the third person, try to use irrelevant quibbles over figures of speech to justify leaving the debate, and then snip out 90% of my reply on the basis that I used latin words and the phrase "concession accepted", and you think I'm the one in bad faith here?

You've made it clear that you have an emotional kneejerk over this subject, given that while I responded to you line by line you decided to go around and appeal to the crowd

Spoiler:
or rather an individual who is explicitly harassing me just to get me to accept a Sidious vs. Snoke debate
and then give some lazy half-assed responses to like two statements of mine.

If you want to actually debate this, you are welcome to:

- calm the f*ck down.
- look over my post and respond to it either line by line or in sufficient general detail.
- realize that whether I appreciate your figure of speech or use particular catchphrases has nothing to do with the merits of my arguments.

It's up to you. 👆

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmao, you run around insulting me in the third person, try to use irrelevant quibbles over figures of speech to justify leaving the debate, and then snip out 90% of my reply on the basis that I used latin words and the phrase "concession accepted", and you think I'm the one in bad faith here?

You've made it clear that you have an emotional kneejerk over this subject, given that while I responded to you line by line you decided to go around and appeal to the crowd

Spoiler:
or rather an individual who is explicitly harassing me just to get me to accept a Sidious vs. Snoke debate
and then give some lazy half-assed responses to like two statements of mine.

If you want to actually debate this, you are welcome to:

- calm the f*ck down.
- look over my post and respond to it either line by line or in sufficient general detail.
- realize that whether I appreciate your figure of speech or use particular catchphrases has nothing to do with the merits of my arguments.

It's up to you. 👆

It's not irrelevant quibbles. It's relevant to us having any meaningful discussion. I take issue with someone who cannot own up to fucking up and it's groundwork for the debate going in a shitty direction. You're not going to exclusively just act like this over something so minuscule as erroneously using propositional logic or leaving a part of my quote out where it makes it clear I'm joking to say "strawman."

It's completely and utterly in bad faith.

You're a cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen KMC '05er in how you respond to people and attempt to worm out of your fuck=ups. It's not new. You're the type of dude who thinks everyone who walks away from you whilst arguing has lost or has nothing to say because you cannot even fathom the idea that someone might just not want to engage you based on how you've behaved.

Your catchphrases are not supposed to highlight the "merits" of your arguments. Plus, they're not even yours.

Originally posted by The Lost
It's not irrelevant quibbles. It's relevant to us having any meaningful discussion. I take issue with someone who cannot own up to fucking up and it's groundwork for the debate going in a shitty direction. You're not going to exclusively just act like this over something so minuscule as erroneously using propositional logic or leaving a part of my quote out where it makes it clear I'm joking to say "strawman."

It's completely and utterly in bad faith.

You're a cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen KMC '05er in how you respond to people and attempt to worm out of your fuck=ups. It's not new. You're the type of dude who thinks everyone who walks away from you whilst arguing has lost or has nothing to say because you cannot even fathom the idea that someone might just not want to engage you based on how you've behaved.

Your catchphrases are not supposed to highlight the "merits" of your arguments. Plus, they're not even yours.

It's funny how you accuse me of not factoring your weird figurative speech into my describing your logic but then pretend that I committed a fallacy against Neph because it was "implied", even after I explained how I meant my words literally. Apparently when you're posting everyone has to buy into your metaphors, but when I'm posting you are the arbiter of what I actually meant. 😆

I'm still waiting for an actual response to the substance of my arguments, Lost. I responded to your half-assed reply to 10% of my post above, so you're welcome to reply to that, or to my original body of work.

Because people have noticed that you've spent more time here talking to quanchi/Neph and quibbling over me saying "concession accepted" than actually debating the subject matter. 👆

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's funny how you accuse me of not factoring your weird figurative speech into my describing your logic but then pretend that I committed a fallacy against Neph because it was "implied", even after I explained how I meant my words literally. Apparently when you're posting everyone has to buy into your metaphors, but when I'm posting you are the arbiter of what I actually meant. 😆

I'm still waiting for an actual response to the substance of my arguments, Lost. I responded to your half-assed reply to 10% of my post above, so you're welcome to reply to that, or to my original body of work.

Because people have noticed that you've spent more time here talking to quanchi/Neph and quibbling over me saying "concession accepted" than actually debating the subject matter. 👆

No, dude, I said a syllogism doesn't have to take place in order for a fallacy to happen because they can be implied, which they can. It was just a minor addendum to the joke. I was very clearly taking the piss and you jumped the gun... for the second time. FFS, I was mocking you and you desperately wanted to call it out. I imagine that is why you ignored the pun at the bottom of my post. You legit just shut it out so you could respond how you wanted to whilst ignoring intent.

Why do you keep on inviting me when I said I was done? It won't happen. You're not well-intentioned. The "substance" of your arguments. That is... fairly loose terminology to you, isn't it? You claimed I was outdated on the science but are arguing for a biological angle for race like it's the early twentieth century. Like, there are several reasons why this isn't going to work. I don't have the patience to argue unscientific shit because it's so easy to dismiss.

Okay. Uh, they can always read back to when I said I was bowing out because I find you that you have ill-intentions.

Once again,

You're the type of dude who thinks everyone who walks away from you whilst arguing has lost or has nothing to say because you cannot even fathom the idea that someone might just not want to engage you based on how you've behaved.