Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Various economic forums. Not sure where they got it from. Definitely worth a profile though. Explains all anyone needs to know about universal healthcare.
You do realize that all wealthy, industrialized countries with the USA as the only exception do have universal healthcare installed? In Germany, it's working quite fine since the 1880s. And, wow, last time I checked, I wasn't living in a socialistic country.
What you seem to forget is that such a system does not only generate costs - it also spawns profit, for all professional groups and industries associated with the health care business. And higher profit results in a higher tax income for the state. As a side-effect, you can be assured that productivity increases because, duh, healthy people are, in general, more efficient than people who suffer from whatever booboo you can imagine.
The next thing is, that the people who are rich - at least it's that way in Germany - can also benefit form the system, because their is a maximum rate (in Germany the maximum rate is 15 % of a 50.000 Euro anual income = 7500 Euro per year). Which means that, even if you earn a million Euro, you still just pay that 7500 Euro per year for the general health care, although you are allowed to pay more for additional services.
Yet, ironically, 16 % of the GDP in the USA is spent for health care, while in Germany, it's just 11 %. And, more irony, 5 % of the US population account for more than 50 % of all costs in the business. I guess it's apparent that some changes need to be made there.
That aside: I agree with you on one point. Such a system can't be financed by higher taxes for the rich. In Germany 50 % of the costs are contributed by the employers...
Originally posted by Borbarad
You do realize that all wealthy, industrialized countries with the USA as the only exception do have universal healthcare installed? In Germany, it's working quite fine since the 1880s. And, wow, last time I checked, I wasn't living in a socialistic country.What you seem to forget is that such a system does not only generate costs - it also spawns profit, for all professional groups and industries associated with the health care business. And higher profit results in a higher tax income for the state. As a side-effect, you can be assured that productivity increases because, duh, healthy people are, in general, more efficient than people who suffer from whatever booboo you can imagine.
Yet, ironically, 16 % of the GDP in the USA is spent for health care, while in Germany, it's just 11 %. And, more irony, 5 % of the US population account for more than 50 % of all costs in the business. I guess it's apparent that some changes need to be made there.
That aside: I agree with you on one point. Such a system can't be financed by higher taxes for the rich. In Germany 50 % of the costs are contributed by the employers... [/B]
Well that's just the thing. I don't think the system will work for many reasons(some of which I've stated). The main reason is it'll bring our country on the brink of collapse. There's no way we could finance it. If America actually produced real wealth anymore, then it would definitely be up for a discussion in terms of competing with the private sector. However, we can ONLY finance this system with more debt. That means more money printing, higher inflation rates, higher interest rates, and a dramatically lower standard of living. And this is ignoring the fact that consumer spending would cease, in which case Obama will have to print even MORE money to stimulate consumer spending. If this was the 40s-60s where we were actually producing more than we were consuming, and saving than we were spending, I would agree that it's something to seriously look at, but this isn't realistic.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nai, I've been around socialized healthcare before. Maybe I'm wrong(and correct me), but doesn't everyone get equal treatment?
Essentially, you are wrong.
In general, all patients are treated equally - but you can buy yourself additional service if you have enough money to do so. That's what private health ensurance is good for. Earning more than 50,000 Euro per year, you can decide to get into the private ensurance, which offers a nice amount of privileges.
But they just factor in, if you have to stay in hospital or have to deal with a specialized doctor. Just as example: When you want to go to an eye specialist (unless you need an emergency treatment), you usually will get an appointment a month after you applied for one. As private patient, you can just drop by whenever you like and receive preferential treatment.
I was talking to a friend of mine a few weeks ago. His grandfather prepped an entire week for surgery, and the day he was supposed to have it, some homeless man came in with a broken and shot arm, and the surgery was postponed. Is it any wonder why the world's citizens come to America for all of their major healthcare problems?
You really think that an obvious emergency shouldn't be handled with priority?
Well again, you're barely hitting the tip of the iceberg in regards to GDP spending, regardless of healthcare. I don't think this healthcare system will work in our country. I've always thought that until recently, we had the best healthcare.
With "we" you probably mean "people that can afford it". Sure. As I said: 5 % of the US population is responsible for more than 50 % of the money spent for health care in the USA.
Well that's just the thing. I don't think the system will work for many reasons(some of which I've stated). The main reason is it'll bring our country on the brink of collapse. There's no way we could finance it. If America actually produced real wealth anymore, then it would definitely be up for a discussion in terms of competing with the private sector. However, we can ONLY finance this system with more debt. That means more money printing, higher inflation rates, higher interest rates, and a dramatically lower standard of living. And this is ignoring the fact that consumer spending would cease, in which case Obama will have to print even MORE money to stimulate consumer spending. If this was the 40s-60s where we were actually producing more than we were consuming, and saving than we were spending, I would agree that it's something to seriously look at, but this isn't realistic.
The system can't work because your entire society isn't really up for "being social". That may sound a little bit harsh, but I think it's a fact. In America, most money is not earned by performance. Most money is earned by...money. In the 90s, you had the .com-companies. The CEOs got a nice amount of stocks, ensured that the stock price went through the roof to cash up and don't care about the company any longer. I've seen people earning several hundred million dollar in one year by bankrupting the companies they were paid to lead.
Then, another funny thing, profits that US companies gain outside the US aren't taxed directly. Good god. A nice amount of companies just shifts job out of your country to make more profit overseas, and nobody over in your country benefits from that. There are many other issues like that.
As you've mentioned taxes. Just as example for taxes here in Germany. Ever complained about high prices for fuel? I just went to refuel my car today. Fuel price = 1.35 Euro per Liter. That are (correct me, if I'm wrong) $7,14 per galon. Why? Because we have something called "Ökosteuer" (green tax) over here, which factors in with 66 Cent/liter ($3,49 / gallon). We have a sales tax on almost all products (19 % of the price), with certain groceries and books being excepted from that (oh...that 19 % also factors in on the fuel price, in case you were missing something). The average taxpayers over here transfer 53,3 % of their anual income back to the state in the form of taxes (via direct or indirect taxes).
This is why stuff like the universal health care does work rather well over here and why it probably won't work in the USA. But that's not a problem of the idea beyond universal health care, but more a problem with the mentality that certain people have.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Essentially, you are wrong.
In general, all patients are treated equally - but you can buy yourself additional service if you have enough money to do so. That's what private health ensurance is good for. Earning more than 50,000 Euro per year, you can decide to get into the private ensurance, which offers a nice amount of privileges.
But they just factor in, if you have to stay in hospital or have to deal with a specialized doctor. Just as example: When you want to go to an eye specialist (unless you need an emergency treatment), you usually will get an appointment a month after you applied for one. As private patient, you can just drop by whenever you like and receive preferential treatment.
You really think that an obvious emergency shouldn't be handled with priority?
With "we" you probably mean "people that can afford it". Sure. As I said: 5 % of the US population is responsible for more than 50 % of the money spent for health care in the USA.
The system can't work because your entire society isn't really up for "being social". That may sound a little bit harsh, but I think it's a fact. In America, most money is not earned by performance. Most money is earned by...money. In the 90s, you had the .com-companies. The CEOs got a nice amount of stocks, ensured that the stock price went through the roof to cash up and don't care about the company any longer. I've seen people earning several hundred million dollar in one year by bankrupting the companies they were paid to lead.
Then, another funny thing, profits that US companies gain outside the US aren't taxed directly. Good god. A nice amount of companies just shifts job out of your country to make more profit overseas, and nobody over in your country benefits from that. There are many other issues like that.
As you've mentioned taxes. Just as example for taxes here in Germany. Ever complained about high prices for fuel? I just went to refuel my car today. Fuel price = 1.35 Euro per Liter. That are (correct me, if I'm wrong) $7,14 per galon. Why? Because we have something called "Ökosteuer" (green tax) over here, which factors in with 66 Cent/liter ($3,49 / gallon). We have a sales tax on almost all products (19 % of the price), with certain groceries and books being excepted from that (oh...that 19 % also factors in on the fuel price, in case you were missing something). The average taxpayers over here transfer 53,3 % of their anual income back to the state in the form of taxes (via direct or indirect taxes).
This is why stuff like the universal health care does work rather well over here and why it probably won't work in the USA. But that's not a problem of the idea beyond universal health care, but more a problem with the mentality that certain people have. [/B]
Possibly. But again, we're getting ahead of ourselves. I'm all for something in between what you have, and what we have, or rather both programs. It's just not economically feasible though..
Btw how's Germany doing? I keep hearing these German economists claiming the worst is over, yet your unemployment rate is over 8% and rising, and your trade surplus is gradually declining.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefingtonI know it can't sustain 300 million people, not with the way the rest of the country functions and thinks. But in a scenario where I had my way, there would be Universal Healthcare for everyone, and everyone would number under 50 million.
That's because you don't know how universal healthcare works, and how it can't possibly sustain 300 million people. And that's not even discussing the economic side effects this country will have if Congress allows this to pass.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I know it can't sustain 300 million people, not with the way the rest of the country functions and thinks. But in a scenario where I had my way, there would be Universal Healthcare for everyone, and everyone would number under 50 million.
And how would that work in terms of regular visits and more severe ones? Would we get to choose our own doctors?
Ok, im officially astounded. You all managed to turn a STAR WARS thread, into an ECONOMICS thread.
Go back 200 pages and you'll find another 100 pages totally about philosophy, sociology and religion. Ahhh, twas a good time.
Edit: and why is choosing your own doctor so important. You trying to discriminate or som'thin?