S
Sidious has a lot of hack writing going for him too. But in Star Wars they're covering it up by saying that the Dark Side clouds everything.
But there is a cogent, believable explanation for the Jedi being unable to sense the Emperor's presence. You can call it hack writing, but it's better than no explanation at all.
Nephthys
Informed ability is pathetic compared to actual ability.
You're misapplying the term 'informed ability'. An informed ability is rather like the Harry Potter books mentioning how brilliant and powerful Voldemort is, but these traits don't manifest as the story unfolds; instead, he acts like a moron.
Within the story, Palpatine's charisma is portrayed quite well, which prevents it from being an informed ability.
The fact that you don't find Palpatine charismatic doesn't mean he's not for the purposes of the story. The same can be said of my opinion on the Joker.
Originally posted by Gideon
No he ain't.
Yes, he... is.
But that's the brilliant thing, you see: Palpatine has rivals and peers in terms of power and his goals require traits and assets distinct from his strength in the Force.
What other rival except for Yoda are you talking about? If he did see Mace as a rival, he wouldn't have chanced it with Anakin, he would have just taken out Mace with the Force as quickly as possible. This situation is actually similar to the Dent-Joker one. How did Sidious know that Anakin would be stupid enough to stop Mace. If Anakin was reasonable for a moment then Sidious would have faced his worst fear, death.
Also, he may have used his political powers to gain control because he didn't have a choice. But if he wasn't powerful in the Force, he wouldn't have been able to defend himself, nor would he have been able to sense Anakin's feelings, nor would he have been able to cloud his true motives. So in a way he couldn't have accomplished anything without being as powerful as he is.
While there may not be as many chaotic villains out there as there are megalomaniacal ones, it's not as though the Joker's motivations are purely original either.
Batman was the Joker's motivation more than creating chaos. It's a more interesting motivation than merely the quest for power.
In what context are you applying the term charisma? If you're referring to the audience, then that is dependent greatly on the actor portraying the character. To the characters within the story, Palpatine is exuberantly charismatic. But then again, who's more likely to get a person's attention? A subdued, unassuming politician or a clown with a social complex desperate to get a person's attention?It's rather the same reason why a screaming, hyperactive child will likely command one's attention more than a mature, quiet adult. Palpatine's character isn't meant to be commanding until he's in command.
The Joker's character isn't meant to be in command. He isn’t charismatic because of his appearance, you notice that nobody even cares about him at the beginning of the movie. It’s his actions that make him a character that influences every citizen of Gotham.
I see this leveled at Star Wars a lot, but no one bothers to explain where, exactly, the idiocy is. I can throw the same thing in Batman's direction. If he were a real genius, he'd have put a bullet in the Joker's head.By the way, contrary to his statements, the Joker is a schemer and a pretty good one.
True, he is a good schemer. Like I said before, Batman is the Joker’s motivation. Batman is guided entirely by his morals (no killing), this is portrayed in the movies, comics and cartoons.
The idiocy of Star Wars is why Sidious is allowed to have this much power and keep it. He just has to say “order 66”, all Jedi are killed and everyone just accepts his word when he says that the Jedi betrayed him. These Jedi who are renowned for their peace and protection of the Republic. Also, the Clone Army, doesn’t anyone find it strange that suddenly, without knowledge, an entire secret army is ready for battle. Not to mention the reformation of the Republic to an Empire.
I'll get to this soon.
Edit: But before I do, so neither of us wastes our time, can we have an honest discussion about it? I plan to address everything you mentioned, but if (and I'm not saying you are) you intend to handwave my criticisms away of Nolan and Batman, particularly when it comes to the Caped Crusader's idiocy (why he simply didn't let the Joker fall to his death) or how the Joker timed the bus incident, we might not want to carry on.
particularly when it comes to the Caped Crusader's idiocy (why he simply didn't let the Joker fall to his death)
Becuase then Batman would have killed him and proven the Joker right. Thats why he laughs as he falls, becuase he thinks he just made Batman kill him.
or how the Joker timed the bus incident, we might not want to carry on.
It could't have been that hard, just time how long each segment of the heist takes etc. And I'll match you that with Anakin oh so convieniently coming in 30 seconds before Mace tries to kill Sids.
S
Yes, he... is.
No.
he ain't.
S
What other rival except for Yoda are you talking about? If he did see Mace as a rival, he wouldn't have chanced it with Anakin, he would have just taken out Mace with the Force as quickly as possible.
I'll concede the argument that Palpatine has rivals outside of Yoda, but unlike other characters, circumstance prevents him from unleashing his formidable powers until the proper opportunity. The Emperor is no match for ten thousand Jedi and has to work in other ways to defeat them.
S
This situation is actually similar to the Dent-Joker one. How did Sidious know that Anakin would be stupid enough to stop Mace. If Anakin was reasonable for a moment then Sidious would have faced his worst fear, death.
Palpatine, unlike the Joker, has spent decades cultivating a relationship with his mark, affording him a far greater level of understanding and, thus, allowing him to extrapolate and speculate as to his mark's psychology to a far more realistic degree than the Joker could have possibly done with Dent.
Thus is the crux of my argument: George Lucas crafted a story in which Palpatine suffers constant defeats; the invasion of Naboo was foiled and his apprentice murdered (Episode I), Amidala survived the attempts on her life and the clone army was discovered sooner than expected (Episode II), and Palpatine failed to stop Yoda and Kenobi from surviving and Vader was crippled (Episode III), to say nothing of the Emperor's defeats in other films and EU outlets.
Meanwhile, Christopher Nolan demonstrates complete immaturity and hack writing by affording the Joker near omniscience without any possible rationale, in a movie that clearly indicates he's the Joker's biggest fan.
The difference is that Palpatine, for all of his brilliance, power, and planning, is confronted by intelligent adversaries. Do the Jedi sense the Force in Palpatine? No, but this was explained: Palpatine is clouding their vision through the Force.
This is what, to me, makes Palpatine far more interesting: his creator isn't intentionally designing shit that makes him seem invincible or infallible. Palpatine's plans have many moments when they can or would be foiled.
S
Also, he may have used his political powers to gain control because he didn't have a choice. But if he wasn't powerful in the Force, he wouldn't have been able to defend himself, nor would he have been able to sense Anakin's feelings, nor would he have been able to cloud his true motives. So in a way he couldn't have accomplished anything without being as powerful as he is.
True, but I suppose my point was that Palpatine's triumphs were not solely dictated by his incredible Force strength, but by a highly intelligent mind.
S
Batman was the Joker's motivation more than creating chaos. It's a more interesting motivation than merely the quest for power.
That's subjective.
In my opinion, it's not more interesting, simply because it seems so juvenile and pathetic. The quest for power, on the other hand, is something that is realistic and, on the whole, much more terrifying, which is what makes Palpatine more dangerous than the Joker.
Just my opinion, of course.
S
The Joker's character isn't meant to be in command. He isn’t charismatic because of his appearance, you notice that nobody even cares about him at the beginning of the movie.
What's your point?
S
It’s his actions that make him a character that influences every citizen of Gotham.
Palpatine's actions make him a character that influences every citizen in the galaxy. Taunting Nebaris aside, Palpatine really is the most important character in the mythos when it comes to his actions; to quote a recent article on the character, he is "the pervasive driving force of that galaxy far, far away", important on a level that the Joker certainly never was, even as far as Gotham is concerned.
S
True, he is a good schemer. Like I said before, Batman is the Joker’s motivation. Batman is guided entirely by his morals (no killing), this is portrayed in the movies, comics and cartoons.
I believe Blax once commented on this: Batman's handling of the Joker, in all mediums, is what makes him to be an ultimately worthless hero. He knowingly endangers the lives of everyone by continuing to imprison the Joker, understanding that he'll escape. In the movie, Batman was content to let Ra's Ah Gul (sp?) die when it suited his purpose, and yet is unwilling to do the same to the Joker?
To me, that is idiocy. Yoda demonstrates a similar move with Dooku in Attack of the Clones, but that happens just once. He learns from his mistakes, making him a greater hero and wiser individual than Batman will ever be.
S
The idiocy of Star Wars is why Sidious is allowed to have this much power and keep it.
This is made clear: the Senate trusts Palpatine. Why? Because he's an utterly unassuming politician. Even in Attack of the Clones, he politically works against his true goals regarding the Military Creation Act, demonstrating patience and guile that most real world policians never exhibit. Moreover, the Senate is desperate; they don't have the time to elect a new Chancellor on the eve of this crisis (which is why Palpatine timed it the way he did), so they give Palpatine executive powers to wield the clone army.
This is not idiocy; this is an utterly realistic and believable error in judgment.
S
He just has to say “order 66”, all Jedi are killed and everyone just accepts his word when he says that the Jedi betrayed him.
This is also made clear: in the movie, Palpatine asserts that he was deformed by Jedi powers in an assassination attempt. In the novel, he secretly records the confrontation he has with Mace.
S
These Jedi who are renowned for their peace and protection of the Republic.
Says who? Not to go Karen Traviss on anyone, but not only have the Jedi (turned evil) orchestrated several galactic threats, but Dooku himself was once a Jedi Master. Why would their trust in the Jedi be infallible?
S
Also, the Clone Army, doesn’t anyone find it strange that suddenly, without knowledge, an entire secret army is ready for battle.
^ I'm not sure how this criticism is related to Palpatine, since he didn't make the order.
S
Not to mention the reformation of the Republic to an Empire.
It's happened before. In real life. Silly or not, that adds a sense of believability that transcends anything from Nolan's films.
N
Becuase then Batman would have killed him and proven the Joker right. Thats why he laughs as he falls, becuase he thinks he just made Batman kill him.
😐
So Batman's more concerned with defying the Joker than ending a menace to civilization?
😂
Some hero.
N
It could't have been that hard, just time how long each segment of the heist takes etc.
Explain how he timed it and how he planned for the bus to only reach in so far and crush the thug. Logical, sensible reasons, please.
N
And I'll match you that with Anakin oh so convieniently coming in 30 seconds before Mace tries to kill Sids.
The Force. Palpatine can sense people in it.
Joker? No Force.
Originally posted by Gideon
😐So Batman's more concerned with defying the Joker than ending a menace to civilization?
😂
Some hero.[/b
Just becuase I wouldn't morally agree with it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or make it a plot hole. Comic and Movie Batman never kills the Joker for various reasons. I listed just one.
Explain how he timed it and how he planned for the bus to only reach in so far and crush the thug. Logical, sensible reasons, please.
I did explain how he timed it, he just estimated how long it takes for the heist to take place i.e. how long it takes to take out the communications, how long it takes to get through the vault door, etc etc. It didn't need to reach in that far to get the thug. The distaction alone would have got him. It hitting him could have just have been a lucky break.
The Force. Palpatine can sense people in it.Joker? No Force.
But Palpatine legitimately lost the fight, so he couldn't have exactly timed it at all. And at best he could have maintained teh lightning for a few minutes. If Annie took longer than that he'd have been screwed.
N
Just becuase I wouldn't morally agree with it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or make it a plot hole. Comic and Movie Batman never kills the Joker for various reasons. I listed just one.
No, what you did was underline my point regarding hack writing and idiocy.
N
I did explain how he timed it, he just estimated how long it takes for the heist to take place i.e. how long it takes to take out the communications, how long it takes to get through the vault door, etc etc. It didn't need to reach in that far to get the thug. The distaction alone would have got him. It hitting him could have just have been a lucky break.
I'm not buying it, particularly your excuse for the bus hitting the thug. Sounds like a very feeble attempt to justify the unjustifiable.
N
But Palpatine legitimately lost the fight,
According to whom?
N
so he couldn't have exactly timed it at all.
According to whom?
N
And at best he could have maintained teh lightning for a few minutes.
According to whom?
N
If Annie took longer than that he'd have been screwed.
According to whom?
Originally posted by Gideon
No, what you did was underline my point regarding hack writing and idiocy.
facepalm2 Do you know anything about Batman? Lets just say that some people don't believe in murder. If he'd have let him fall it would have been murder. Flat out cold-blooded murder. And as the first movie underlined, 'I will fight men like this, but I will not become one of them.' It's one of Batman's defining characteristics; Batman. Does. Not. Kill. Its good writing, not bad.
I'm not buying it, particularly your excuse for the bus hitting the thug. Sounds like a very feeble attempt to justify the unjustifiable.
Its actually a veeery easy thing to do (the timing). Plus y'know, that was where they were putting the money, so the thug would have obviously have been standing there. All Mr. J had to do was position him for the knockout, which we saw him doing.
According to whom?
The DVD commentary.
According to whom?
If he didn't control when the fight ended he couldn't have timed when Anakin would find him, and Anakin needed to come in at a very specific time.
According to whom?
He was exhausted after 20 seconds, I doubt he could have maintained it for that long.
According to whom?
Mace Windu's lightsaber blade.
N
facepalm2 Do you know anything about Batman? Lets just say that some people don't believe in murder. If he'd have let him fall it would have been murder. Flat out cold-blooded murder. And as the first movie underlined, 'I will fight men like this, but I [b]will not become one of them.' It's one of Batman's defining characteristics; Batman. Does. Not. Kill. Its good writing, not bad.[/b]
Do you know anything about reality? In the real world, if you're being attacked and you defend yourself, and the perpetrator happens to die as a result, it's called self defense. Maybe you should stop reading comic books and start paying attention to... everything else?
Spoiler:
All you've proven is that Batman is a highly ineffective hero, more concerned with his personal defiance of the Joker than ridding the world of a very dangerous, irredeemable man.
N
Its actually a veeery easy thing to do (the timing). Plus y'know, that was where they were putting the money, so the thug would have obviously have been standing there. All Mr. J had to do was position him for the knockout, which we saw him doing.
Given the chaos that occured with the banker/gunman, keeping such accurate time would not be an easy thing to do in the real world.
N
The DVD commentary.
Prove it. Exact quote and source, please.
N
If he didn't control when the fight ended he couldn't have timed when Anakin would find him, and Anakin needed to come in at a very specific time.
Who says he didn't control the fight and when it ended?
N
He was exhausted after 20 seconds, I doubt he could have maintained it for that long.
Who says he was exhausted?
N
Mace Windu's lightsaber blade.
Not if it's being held at bay.
Lucius
Batman not killing anyone has nothing to do with Nolan.
I never said it did.
Lucius
Batman simply doesn't kill people. Even in Frank Miller's TDKR Batman doesn't kill people. The no killing is a critical part of Batman's character.
The reason I'm criticising this is because of his portrayal in Batman Begins and the fact that he's as incompetent and ineffective as any Jedi you've ever criticised.
Lucius
Anyone with even basic understanding of the comic source material would know this.
Have I demonstrated a lack of understanding? Hardly; all I've shown is a lack of acceptance for BS.
Originally posted by Gideon
I never said it did.
Why make an issue of it then?
Originally posted by Gideon
The reason I'm criticising this is because of his portrayal in Batman Begins and the fact that he's as incompetent and ineffective as any Jedi you've ever criticised.
No, he really isn't. The Jedi we see in the PT are ignorant, inept, and utterly blind. Yoda is a class act moron that doesn't even notice when the Order's prize knight is undergoing an emotional breakdown and Anakin is a straight up idiot that goes from "What have I done?" to murdering children. Palpatine's victory is the result of his enemies' incompetence and sheer luck that Anakin arrived when he did.
Originally posted by Gideon
Have I demonstrated a lack of understanding? Hardly; all I've shown is a lack of acceptance for BS.
And if you knew anything about Batman or the DCU, you would know the Batman/Joker rivalry is integral part of the character. Batman always stops Joker, captures him, and then gets him thrown in prison. The Joker escapes and the cycle begins again. Why do you think the Joker told Batman the two of them were destined to fight forever? It's Nolan giving a nod to the source material.
I'll respond thoroughly the moment I have an opportunity to do so.
In the meantime, I'll treat you to the same advice I gave you before. I'm willing to discuss this with you, but I'm not interested in irrational, emotional overtures simply because you like Batman better.
Attempts to handwave idiocy in Batman as part of some inept "cycle" perpetuated by hack writing while ranting that Star Wars' plot is incompetent, ignorant, and whatnot isn't something I'm interested in discussing.
If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.
Originally posted by Gideon
Do you know anything about reality? In the real world, if you're being attacked and you defend yourself, and the perpetrator happens to die as a result, it's called self defense. Maybe you should stop reading comic books and start paying attention to... everything else?Spoiler:
All you've proven is that Batman is a highly ineffective hero, more concerned with his personal defiance of the Joker than ridding the world of a very dangerous, irredeemable man.
Whatever, Lucius is right, this has nothing to do with the argument.
Given the chaos that occured with the banker/gunman, keeping such accurate time would not be an easy thing to do in the real world.
Well then I guess it was just that much more impressive that Joker did it then isn't it.
Prove it. Exact quote and source, please.
Don't be a douche Gideon, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Lucas says it on the DVD commentary.
Who says he didn't control the fight and when it ended?
George Lucas.
Who says he was exhausted?
His own ragged breath at the end of the fight, plus he himself.
Not if it's being held at bay.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Gideon
I'll get to this soon.Edit: But before I do, so neither of us wastes our time, can we have an honest discussion about it? I plan to address everything you mentioned, but if (and I'm not saying you are) you intend to handwave my criticisms away of Nolan and Batman, particularly when it comes to the Caped Crusader's idiocy (why he simply didn't let the Joker fall to his death) or how the Joker timed the bus incident, we might not want to carry on.
Alright. I'm on it.
Originally posted by Gideon
I'll concede the argument that Palpatine has rivals outside of Yoda, but unlike other characters, circumstance prevents him from unleashing his formidable powers until the proper opportunity. The Emperor is no match for ten thousand Jedi and has to work in other ways to defeat them.
Ofcourse, just like the Joker, who has to work in other ways to accomplish his designs. The Joker doesn’t have the luxury though to defend himself like Sidious, which makes him vulnerable. This is in my opinion more enjoyable because he is actually forced to rely on his wits. You could compare this to Lex Luthor.
Palpatine, unlike the Joker, has spent decades cultivating a relationship with his mark, affording him a far greater level of understanding and, thus, allowing him to extrapolate and speculate as to his mark's psychology to a far more realistic degree than the Joker could have possibly done with Dent.
Difference in the two scenes is that Palpatine actually values his life above all else, the Joker couldn’t care less if Dent killed him. The Joker would have corrupted Dent either way, even if he was shot by him (mission accomplished). Like DE already said, Dent had become Two-Face who believes in chance. The Joker had fifty-fifty chance he’d die. There was also a decent chance that Anakin would not de-limb Mace as he had just found out that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, and even though he sees Palpatine as a father figure, he also knows that the Sith are evil. So there was still a good chance that Anakin would not listen to him, yet Sidious chanced it.
Thus is the crux of my argument: George Lucas crafted a story in which Palpatine suffers constant defeats; the invasion of Naboo was foiled and his apprentice murdered (Episode I), Amidala survived the attempts on her life and the clone army was discovered sooner than expected (Episode II), and Palpatine failed to stop Yoda and Kenobi from surviving and Vader was crippled (Episode III), to say nothing of the Emperor's defeats in other films and EU outlets.Meanwhile, Christopher Nolan demonstrates complete immaturity and hack writing by affording the Joker near omniscience without any possible rationale, in a movie that clearly indicates he's the Joker's biggest fan.
The difference is that Palpatine, for all of his brilliance, power, and planning, is confronted by intelligent adversaries. Do the Jedi sense the Force in Palpatine? No, but this was explained: Palpatine is clouding their vision through the Force.
This is what, to me, makes Palpatine far more interesting: his creator isn't intentionally designing shit that makes him seem invincible or infallible. Palpatine's plans have many moments when they can or would be foiled.
Well, not everything worked out. Nor the civilians, nor the prisoners blew each other up. He didn’t got killed by Batman, which as said before, was his greatest motive. Definitely not everything goes his way, but when something goes wrong he does make the best of the situation, which is exactly the same as Palpatine does.
You can’t say that Palpatine’s adversaries were more intelligent than the Joker’s adversaries though. The invasion of Naboo was stopped by pure luck. C’mon, little Ani blowing up the Command Hub, Darth Maul getting cocky and being killed by Obi-Wan… Seems a little bit more like PIS than an intelligent Ani and Obi-Wan. Amidala survives because she used a double first (intelligent?) and then because Anakin sensed danger in her room (intelligent?). Yoda survived because he’s the über Jedi and Kenobi survived through luck. Then Anakin getting maimed wasn’t really because of a brilliant opponent, it had more to do with Anakins lack of intelligence. RotJ defeat? Pure overconfidence on his part, not because Luke Skywalker was too intelligent.
True, but I suppose my point was that Palpatine's triumphs were not solely dictated by his incredible Force strength, but by a highly intelligent mind.
Okay, but I do not see any real difference with the Joker on this part (well, Joker has no incredible strength). Except that as you’d say it, Nolan made the Joker too smart? Can’t I say that Lucas made Palpatine too smart?
That's subjective.In my opinion, it's not more interesting, simply because it seems so juvenile and pathetic. The quest for power, on the other hand, is something that is realistic and, on the whole, much more terrifying, which is what makes Palpatine more dangerous than the Joker.
Just my opinion, of course.
True, but in my opinion I find an unpredictable villain like the Joker more terrifying. He’s also not supposed to be that realistic, I haven’t found too many people who can relate to a sociopath.
Palpatine's actions make him a character that influences every citizen in the galaxy. Taunting Nebaris aside, Palpatine really is the most important character in the mythos when it comes to his actions; to quote a recent article on the character, he is "the pervasive driving force of that galaxy far, far away", important on a level that the Joker certainly never was, even as far as Gotham is concerned.
I think you’re mixing best villain with most important character. Even so, in his universe (the Batman universe) he grows into a very important and dangerous character. That is what’s so good about his character in TDK. Remember, we’re talking about the best villain here, not the best politician.
I believe Blax once commented on this: Batman's handling of the Joker, in all mediums, is what makes him to be an ultimately worthless hero. He knowingly endangers the lives of everyone by continuing to imprison the Joker, understanding that he'll escape. In the movie, Batman was content to let Ra's Ah Gul (sp?) die when it suited his purpose, and yet is unwilling to do the same to the Joker?To me, that is idiocy. Yoda demonstrates a similar move with Dooku in Attack of the Clones, but that happens just once. He learns from his mistakes, making him a greater hero and wiser individual than Batman will ever be.
Well, I think this is already being discussed by other individuals here. But yes, like the Joker says, it’s the Batman’s one rule to not kill (like a lot of superheroes) and it’s been like that since the early comic days. There is nothing that Nolan can do about it. Also, the baddie from the first movie died because he knew Batman’s identity and could jeopardize all that he stood for. I don’t remember him really being killed by Batman either.
This is made clear: the Senate trusts Palpatine. Why? Because he's an utterly unassuming politician. Even in Attack of the Clones, he politically works against his true goals regarding the Military Creation Act, demonstrating patience and guile that most real world policians never exhibit. Moreover, the Senate is desperate; they don't have the time to elect a new Chancellor on the eve of this crisis (which is why Palpatine timed it the way he did), so they give Palpatine executive powers to wield the clone army.This is not idiocy; this is an utterly realistic and believable error in judgment.
You’d think that people so advanced would be smarter than Nazi supporters.
This is also made clear: in the movie, Palpatine asserts that he was deformed by Jedi powers in an assassination attempt. In the novel, he secretly records the confrontation he has with Mace.
So nobody wonders why Palpatine is shooting lightning out of his hands or wielding a red lightsaber OR maybe think that Mace is a rogue Jedi not working for the Jedi Order OR maybe even consider that Palpatine is actually evil and that the Jedi figured this out before anyone else.
Says who? Not to go Karen Traviss on anyone, but not only have the Jedi (turned evil) orchestrated several galactic threats, but Dooku himself was once a Jedi Master. Why would their trust in the Jedi be infallible?
I can understand that during the KOTOR, civilians didn’t see the difference between Sith or Jedi. But to not know that Jedi represent the Light Side of the Force after everything that has happened is just weird. But maybe you’re right and the general population of Star Wars actually doesn’t know the basics.
^ I'm not sure how this criticism is related to Palpatine, since he didn't make the order.
Imagine this happening in real life. Suddenly a gigantic never before seen army appears. Nobody would even think about giving control of this army to one man, not even Obama.
It's happened before. In real life. Silly or not, that adds a sense of believability that transcends anything from Nolan's films.
Granted, going from a democracy to a dictatorship is pretty realistic, but this is usually during a war, not after.