Gideon should pull Palpatine's withered penis out of his rectum and stop whining about Batman not killing people.
Spoiler:
The application of real physics would actually render this aspect of the character moot. Tumbler + truck + highly illegal speeds + head on collision = dead driver.
More importantly, nobody likes Palpatine. The poor bastard doesn't even get a mention.
In conclusion, the Green Ranger is the most thrilling antagonist ever, bar none, ever, followed at a considerable distance by that guy in Sonic, then Jay Sean.
Slash
He also has the worst acting ever
You might be shanked.
Originally posted by Eminence
You do not know what acting is. You are gay.You might be shanked.
Nah, you're right Faunus, Power Rangers had the best acting in tv history.
Also, his wife looks like Suicide Girls material: 0:57
one quick point about the recording in Sidious's office: That part is probably non-canon, since none of that scene, as written in the book, ever happens.
However, this is PALPATINE. I'm thinking if he stood up and told the people that the Confederacy were actually their allies, they would have believed him.
Slash_KMC
Nah, you're right Faunus, Power Rangers had the best acting in tv history.Also, his wife looks like Suicide Girls material: 0:57
It helps that the Green Ranger is two hundred fourteen undefeated pounds and recently parked the Dragonzord on some professional MMA ass.
Originally posted by Eminence
Gideon should pull Palpatine's withered penis out of his rectum and stop whining about Batman not killing people.Spoiler:
The application of real physics would actually render this aspect of the character moot. Tumbler + truck + highly illegal speeds + head on collision = dead driver.More importantly, nobody likes Palpatine. The poor bastard doesn't even get a mention.
In conclusion, the Green Ranger is the most thrilling antagonist ever, bar none, ever, followed at a considerable distance by that guy in Sonic, then Jay Sean.
wow boba and han sweeped that
it is kind of sad that a character with 3 lines and 2 minutes of screen time is more popular than the overarching mega villain of the series
Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
wow boba and han sweeped thatit is kind of sad that a character with 3 lines and 2 minutes of screen time is more popular than the overarching mega villain of the series
What, two? Boba had like five minutes of screen time.
EDIT: Nobody mentioned Yoda or Luke either...
Part I:
Lucius
Why make an issue of it then?
Because Nolan's writing engendered an inexcusable contradiction in the two films. In the first, Batman is entirely content to let his enemy die when it suits his purposes; in the second, Batman refuses to exercise the same tactic with the Joker, even when it was made repeatedly clear throughout the movie that law enforcement lacked the means with which to keep the Joker restrained.
This, sir, was blatant idiocy.
Lucius
No, he really isn't. The Jedi we see in the PT are ignorant, inept, and utterly blind. Yoda is a class act moron that doesn't even notice when the Order's prize knight is undergoing an emotional breakdown and Anakin is a straight up idiot that goes from "What have I done?" to murdering children. Palpatine's victory is the result of his enemies' incompetence and sheer luck that Anakin arrived when he did.
He really is; no matter how much handwaving you attempt to do, Vene, it's not going away. While I'm not excusing Yoda's actions (I rather like that the old Master is so blind to what's going on at this point in his career), Anakin's transformation is a little more complex than what you pretend it is. Even on Mustafar, we see Anakin visibly distraught over the actions he took, but in his mind, they're justified: he was told that the murder of the padawans would not only preserve the Empire, but that it would afford him a connection to the dark side that would allow him to save his wife.
Palpatine's victory is the result of meticulous planning thanks to an intellect that far exceeds that of the Joker.
Lucius
And if you knew anything about Batman or the DCU, you would know the Batman/Joker rivalry is integral part of the character. Batman always stops Joker, captures him, and then gets him thrown in prison. The Joker escapes and the cycle begins again. Why do you think the Joker told Batman the two of them were destined to fight forever? It's Nolan giving a nod to the source material.
I'm entirely uninterested in pathetic, transparent excuses about DCU's "cycle." I don't care that Batman's incompetence and refusal to end the Joker is what allows for further stories, just as you don't seem to care that Yoda's incompetence is what helps facilitate Palpatine's rise to power, thus ensuring the progression of the saga.
What we have here is a glaring double standard. It's acceptable for DCU or Nolan to fill their stories with hack writing and immense character stupidity, but George Lucas somehow is being held to a greater standard?
Hardly. The difference between Batman and Yoda is that Yoda had the stones (and the brains) to try to do something about it when he realized how dangerous Sidious was.
Part II:
N
Whatever,
I accept your concession.
Spoiler:
Next time, grow a pair and concede the proper and adult way, instead of behaving like the rabid emo fangirl that I accuse you of being.
N
Lucius is right, this has nothing to do with the argument.
Lucien is wrong, it has everything to do with the argument: Nolan depicts Batman as willing to allow a dangerous criminal to die out of either revenge or an understanding that said criminal is too dangerous to be left alive (sound familiar?), but the next movie depicts Batman as an insecure prick who's far more interested in denying Joker victory in their personal conflict than ending the clown's menace to society.
N
Well then I guess it was just that much more impressive that Joker did it then isn't it.
And because the Joker is neither precognitive nor omniscient nor possesses any access to any omnipresent energy field capable of predicting the future, what it really happens to be is hack writing.
N
Don't be a douche Gideon,
😂 😂 😂
N
you know exactly what I'm talking about. Lucas says it on the DVD commentary.
I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about, because I'm not aware of a single statement by George Lucas that flat out says that Mace legitimately defeated Palpatine by being a superior swordsman or duelist... if that's what you're getting at.
N
George Lucas.
I'm not interested in your dishonesty.
N
His own ragged breath at the end of the fight, plus he himself.
And yet Lucas confirms in that very same commentary that Palpatine was faking his weakness. I'll fetch you the quote.
N
Agreed.
Good. 😖hifty:
Okay, but I do not see any real difference with the Joker on this part (well, Joker has no incredible strength). Except that as you’d say it, Nolan made the Joker too smart? Can’t I say that Lucas made Palpatine too smart?If the Joker was placed in a realm where the people he was trying to take out had powers that allowed them to see the future and read through thoughts and emotions, then I guarantee you he would not get far at all. So yes Lucas had to make Palpatine with special powers in order to make it equal, if not then that would make the jedi's power seem weak. But it's not like he made Palpatine far too powerful for them. Thousands of Jedi>>>>>Palpatine, which is why Palpatine had to rely on his brains and patience to outsmart them. Palpatine was too smart.
BTW, I can watch The Dark Night over and over again. I really enjoyed watching the Joker, but I find Ra's Al Ghul to be a better villain
Part III:
S
Ofcourse, just like the Joker, who has to work in other ways to accomplish his designs. The Joker doesn’t have the luxury though to defend himself like Sidious, which makes him vulnerable. This is in my opinion more enjoyable because he is actually forced to rely on his wits. You could compare this to Lex Luthor.
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure how this applies here. Palpatine, like Luthor and the Joker, is unable to accomplish his goals by sheer force (pun intended) alone. The fact that he is an extraordinarily powerful magician is not the key to his success over the Jedi or the Republic. Now I'm not saying that it doesn't play a part, given Palpatine's use of farsight and whatnot, but who's to say that he couldn't have accomplished the same thing without Force sensitivity?
S
Difference in the two scenes is that Palpatine actually values his life above all else, the Joker couldn’t care less if Dent killed him. The Joker would have corrupted Dent either way, even if he was shot by him (mission accomplished). Like DE already said, Dent had become Two-Face who believes in chance. The Joker had fifty-fifty chance he’d die. There was also a decent chance that Anakin would not de-limb Mace as he had just found out that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, and even though he sees Palpatine as a father figure, he also knows that the Sith are evil. So there was still a good chance that Anakin would not listen to him, yet Sidious chanced it.
You misunderstand my criticism of the Dent-Joker scene. My problem with that particular load of bullshit is that, as demonstrated in the other thread, Dent was motivated entirely by revenge. The idea that the Joker would be able to persuade an otherwise intelligent and good-natured person like Harvey Dent that Batman and Gordon are as much to blame for Rachel's death as he [the Joker] was is simply inconceivable.
This would be like if Darth Sidious walked up to Anakin, in full cloak mode, and told him: "You're going to be my apprentice" and Anakin dropping to one knee and saying "Yes, Master."
We'd all go apeshit over that because it's stupid and we simply do not accept the idea that someone [Anakin/Dent] can have such an incredible lapse of judgment to react in such a way.
Palpatine's corruption of Anakin is far more realistic and believable than the Joker's corruption of Dent. It is a patient, subtle process that takes years and, even then, is neither foolproof nor absolute: it is not loyalty to Palpatine that drives Anakin to turn to the dark side, but his obsessive love for Padme.
Essentially, George Lucas (unlike Christopher Nolan) is not a rabid fanboy of his villain and adds further dimensions and depth to his plots that Nolan's relatively immature handle on scheming and psychology lacks.
S
Well, not everything worked out. Nor the civilians, nor the prisoners blew each other up. He didn’t got killed by Batman, which as said before, was his greatest motive.
It was his greatest motive, prior to him realizing that Batman was "too much fun" to simply kill.
S
Definitely not everything goes his way, but when something goes wrong he does make the best of the situation, which is exactly the same as Palpatine does.
The difference is that Palpatine's adaptations are realistic and far more interesting than the Joker's. The Joker's sneaky victory was Dent's corruption, which I've explained is simply hack writing.
S
You can’t say that Palpatine’s adversaries were more intelligent than the Joker’s adversaries though. The invasion of Naboo was stopped by pure luck. C’mon, little Ani blowing up the Command Hub, Darth Maul getting cocky and being killed by Obi-Wan… Seems a little bit more like PIS than an intelligent Ani and Obi-Wan.
Whether or Maul survived, Obi-Wan died, or Anakin's little trip to the Droid Control Ship occured has nothing to do with the outcome of Naboo, because the real target is Gunray.
Amidala's capture of Gunray was the result of skills in subterfuge (infilitrating the palace), diplomacy (the alliance with the Gunguns), and sheer intellect. Gunray was key: once Amidala had him, Maul and the Droid Control Ship became inconsequential.
S
Amidala survives because she used a double first (intelligent?)
...I'm not sure how the calculated decision to use a bodyguard and a double in the middle of a crisis can be considered anything but intelligent preparation, Slash.
S
and then because Anakin sensed danger in her room (intelligent?).
...I'm not sure how the calculated decision to use Amidala as bait for the bounty hunter can be anything other than an intelligent (albeit risky) strategy, Slash.
S
Yoda survived because he’s the über Jedi
Yoda survived through Order 66 as a result of skills in terms of observation when it comes to battle. He sensed the troopers approach and their intent to kill and responded accordingly. Furthermore, he also managed to infiltrate Coruscant, attack the Imperial-held Temple, and alter the beacon, not to mention infiltrate Palpatine's own chambers, without alerting security.
How is that not the product of intelligence?
S
and Kenobi survived through luck.
Anakin or Order 66? Obi-Wan surviving Anakin was the result of skill and strategy, not luck. Order 66? Him surviving the cannon blast was luck, yes, but his escape from the scouts was due to intellect.
S
Then Anakin getting maimed wasn’t really because of a brilliant opponent, it had more to do with Anakins lack of intelligence.
Interesting; you cite this as 'lack of intelligence' but Palpatine's own failure to be 'pure overconfidence'? I'm fairly certain Anakin's defeat was the result of overconfidence, not a lack of intelligence. Given that the boy was a prodigious mechanic and budding war strategist, he was hardly stupid. Just unwise.
S
RotJ defeat? Pure overconfidence on his part, not because Luke Skywalker was too intelligent.
Anakin became his enemy then, not just Luke. Not to mention that Palpatine lost the battle on Endor's surface because of his enemies' tenacity and intellect.
Not, of course, that I'm saying overconfidence wasn't a player.
S
Okay, but I do not see any real difference with the Joker on this part (well, Joker has no incredible strength). Except that as you’d say it, Nolan made the Joker too smart? Can’t I say that Lucas made Palpatine too smart?
That's just it, you see: Palpatine, even equipped with access to an all powerful energy field, suffered defeats and setbacks even as his strategy grew closer and closer to completion. By this I mean that George Lucas took a realistic approach to a character who is supposed to be less realistic than Nolan's Joker.
Lucas's villain is meant to be an all powerful manipulator and galactic tyrant; Nolan's villain is meant to be a highly dangerous psychopath. So why is it that the Joker has moments where he is unrealistically omniscient?
It is because Lucas, when it comes to Palpatine and his rise to power, is mature. He's not a fanboy of the Emperor. He realized that even with such resources and advantages, Palpatine is not omniscient and has no reason to be.
The Joker, meanwhile, can predict that the police will place him in the exact same cell as a boobytrapped pawn, the exact time and spot a bus will crash through a wall, after a hectic shootout with a criminal banker, and can simply persuade people to do his bidding by being a blatant douche.
Can you honestly, with that in mind, tell me that you see no problem there?
S
True, but in my opinion I find an unpredictable villain like the Joker more terrifying. He’s also not supposed to be that realistic, I haven’t found too many people who can relate to a sociopath.
He's not supposed to be realistic? Since when?
S
I think you’re mixing best villain with most important character. Even so, in his universe (the Batman universe) he grows into a very important and dangerous character. That is what’s so good about his character in TDK. Remember, we’re talking about the best villain here, not the best politician.
You were the one who seemingly brought up importance to the story as a means of measuring a character's charisma. I simply pointed out that Palpatine is far more important to Star Wars than the Joker is to the story of Batman; so if that's how you define charisma, Palpatine is miles ahead.
S
Well, I think this is already being discussed by other individuals here. But yes, like the Joker says, it’s the Batman’s one rule to not kill (like a lot of superheroes) and it’s been like that since the early comic days.
I'm not holding Nolan responsible for Batman being an ineffective and worthless hero; I'm holding Nolan responsible for making Batman out to be an uncaring, egomaniacal dweeb.
S
There is nothing that Nolan can do about it. Also, the baddie from the first movie died because he knew Batman’s identity and could jeopardize all that he stood for. I don’t remember him really being killed by Batman either.
This presents multiple problems:
First, if Batman is willing to kill those who discover his identity, then it's not much of a rule, then is it?
Second, wouldn't that suggest a gigantic deficit in priorities? Batman's more concerned with maintaining anonymity than keeping Gotham safe from people like the Joker?
Third, Batman's actions with Liam Neeson's character vs. the Joker aren't entirely incomparable. Batman, for whatever reason, elected to leave a man in a situation in which he would face certain death; but when it's the Joker's turn, Batman opts to save him.
Why?
S
You’d think that people so advanced would be smarter than Nazi supporters.
Advanced technology or not, the fact remains that what happened in Star Wars parallels what has happened in human history time and time again, cementing it as completely realistic.
S
So nobody wonders why Palpatine is shooting lightning out of his hands or wielding a red lightsaber OR
And who saw Palpatine do either of those things (and lived to tell the tale)?
S
maybe think that Mace is a rogue Jedi not working for the Jedi Order
Why would they have any reason to doubt the loyalty of the Order's second highest authority to that Order?
S
OR maybe even consider that Palpatine is actually evil and that the Jedi figured this out before anyone else.
Why would they have any reason to assume as much? Where has Palpatine shown demonstrable evil? You do realize that the man is subtle and patient; there are no direct ties to Palpatine and the actions of the Separatists.
S
I can understand that during the KOTOR, civilians didn’t see the difference between Sith or Jedi. But to not know that Jedi represent the Light Side of the Force after everything that has happened is just weird. But maybe you’re right and the general population of Star Wars actually doesn’t know the basics.
This is silly. You assume that the average person, who is not given as much exposure to the Jedi as the audience is, must possess the same knowledge of the Jedi as the audience does. The Jedi exist as a highly covert, elite group of magician-monk-warriors who suffer from a past pockmarked in ethical dilemmas and errors.
S
Imagine this happening in real life. Suddenly a gigantic never before seen army appears. Nobody would even think about giving control of this army to one man, not even Obama.
You're leaving out one essential bit, though. That clone army? Was ordered into creation by a Jedi, not a politician..
S
Granted, going from a democracy to a dictatorship is pretty realistic, but this is usually during a war, not after.
Palpatine clearly accrued more power throughout the war as evidenced by the dialogue. Not to mention that his seizure of power was simultaneous to the war's end.