The two aren't very comparable as "villains." They exist in very different universes and go about their ways of achieving their goals in very different manners. It's like comparing Ferris Bueller's girlfriend to Trinity in the Matrix. Aside from both being the lead female/love interest of the movie, they're completely different.
Palpatine's ruthless, compassion-less, deceitful on an epic scale, very powerful, and he sounds and holds himself like the very Incarnation of Evil. Which he is.
The Joker is an enigma. We know nothing about him. He's psychotic, sadistic, anarchistic, nihilistic, and doesn't give any real clear motive for his actions.
The most you could scrutinize over is how effective an antagonist they played to their respective hero.
I just don't know how to compare the two, nor pick between them. They'll always be a tie because they're too different.
Lord Lucien
Palpatine's ruthless, compassion-less, deceitful on an epic scale, very powerful, and he sounds and holds himself like the very Incarnation of Evil. Which he is.The Joker
is an enigma. We know nothing about him. He's psychotic, sadistic, anarchistic, nihilistic, and doesn't give any real clear motive for his actions.The most you could scrutinize over is how effective an antagonist they played to their respective hero.
I just don't know how to compare the two, nor pick between them. They'll always be a tie because they're too different.sucks huge balls
Agreed.
😖hifty:
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The two aren't very comparable as "villains." They exist in very different universes and go about their ways of achieving their goals in very different manners. It's like comparing Ferris Bueller's girlfriend to Trinity in the Matrix. Aside from both being the lead female/love interest of the movie, they're completely different.Palpatine's ruthless, compassion-less, deceitful on an epic scale, very powerful, and he sounds and holds himself like the very Incarnation of Evil. Which he is.
The Joker is an enigma. We know nothing about him. He's psychotic, sadistic, anarchistic, nihilistic, and doesn't give any real clear motive for his actions.
The most you could scrutinize over is how effective an antagonist they played to their respective hero.
I just don't know how to compare the two, nor pick between them. They'll always be a tie because they're too different.
This..
Okay, I’ll start off with this, but I don’t have enough time to reply to everything at the moment.
Originally posted by Gideon
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure how this applies here. Palpatine, like Luthor and the Joker, is unable to accomplish his goals by sheer force (pun intended) alone. The fact that he is an extraordinarily powerful magician is not the key to his success over the Jedi or the Republic. Now I'm not saying that it doesn't play a part, given Palpatine's use of farsight and whatnot, but who's to say that he couldn't have accomplished the same thing without Force sensitivity?
Exactly, so you agree that Palpatine has a signifact advantage (let’s not call it key point) that contributes to his success? This while the Joker relies solely on his wits.
You misunderstand my criticism of the Dent-Joker scene. My problem with that particular load of bullshit is that, as demonstrated in the other thread, Dent was motivated entirely by revenge. The idea that the Joker would be able to persuade an otherwise intelligent and good-natured person like Harvey Dent that Batman and Gordon are as much to blame for Rachel's death as he [the Joker] was is simply inconceivable.This would be like if Darth Sidious walked up to Anakin, in full cloak mode, and told him: "You're going to be my apprentice" and Anakin dropping to one knee and saying "Yes, Master."
We'd all go apeshit over that because it's stupid and we simply do not accept the idea that someone [Anakin/Dent] can have such an incredible lapse of judgment to react in such a way.
Palpatine's corruption of Anakin is [b]far
more realistic and believable than the Joker's corruption of Dent. It is a patient, subtle process that takes years and, even then, is neither foolproof nor absolute: it is not loyalty to Palpatine that drives Anakin to turn to the dark side, but his obsessive love for Padme.[/B]
Well, neither turn to the “dark side” is realistic. But Dent did just lose his love while Anakin hadn’t even lost his, all he had was that dumb dream of her supposedly dying. This caused Anakin to do way worse stuff than Dent did. Dent’s quest isn’t one for revenge in his opinion, it’s one for justice, giving everyone involved with Rachel’s death the same chance she had, fifty-fifty.
Harvey Dent also had a dark side to him. They already called him two-face at the station and he used that dangerous interrogation method on that guy whose name I don’t care about. It may not have been properly shown in the first part of the movie, but he was supposed to already have that dark side in him. He barely had time to show it though, while Skywalker was in his third movie, not even counting everything else in between.
Also, the Anakin turning Sith apprentice did happen quite abrupt. He is cheerfully saying goodbye to Obi-Wan and a few scenes later he is Vader.
Essentially, George Lucas (unlike Christopher Nolan) is not a rabid fanboy of his villain and adds further dimensions and depth to his plots that Nolan's relatively immature handle on scheming and psychology lacks.
This is very subjective.
It was his greatest motive, prior to him realizing that Batman was "too much fun" to simply kill.
He never wanted to kill Batman, he wanted Batman to kill him, thus corrupting his morals.
The difference is that Palpatine's adaptations are realistic and far more interesting than the Joker's. The Joker's sneaky victory was Dent's corruption, which I've explained is simply hack writing.
Subjective again, I found the Joker’s adaptations far more interesting. But I’m curious to which ones of Palpatine you are referring to. Dent was already on edge, he just needed a little push like the Joker said. In my opinion, Palpatine’s victory is hack writing.
Whether or Maul survived, Obi-Wan died, or Anakin's little trip to the Droid Control Ship occured has nothing to do with the outcome of Naboo, because the real target is Gunray.Amidala's capture of Gunray was the result of skills in subterfuge (infilitrating the palace), diplomacy (the alliance with the Gunguns), and sheer intellect. Gunray was key: once Amidala had him, Maul and the Droid Control Ship became inconsequential.
Still, the loss of his apprentice isn’t due to an intelligent adversary, but plain PIS. As I recall (although I don’t like to watch TPM) the entire droid army was disabled by Anakin thus winning the battle for the Gungan Army. Speaking of which, I wouldn’t call the alliance with the Gungans an intelligent move, I would call them very lucky to have come across Jar Jar Binks. Also watch this at 1:39.
...I'm not sure how the calculated decision to use a bodyguard and a double in the middle of a crisis can be considered anything but intelligent preparation, Slash.
It’s like, a tradition… They do it all the time, look at TPM.
...I'm not sure how the calculated decision to use Amidala as bait for the bounty hunter can be anything other than an intelligent (albeit risky) strategy, Slash.
Very risky. But this can’t actually be counted as one of Palpatine’s defeats as he just hires a bounty hunter, who hires a bounty hunter who let’s a drone stay close to the window for too long and doesn’t know how to self-destruct. I just realized how stupid Zam was.
S
Exactly, so you agree that Palpatine has a signifact advantage (let’s not call it key point) that contributes to his success? This while the Joker relies solely on his wits.
Precisely, thus my criticism: some of the Joker's achievements transcend mere 'wit' and hint at the Joker possessing some sort of plot-induced omniscience, without the Force as an excuse or justification.
This is the difference between mature, reasonable plotlines (Lucas) and the one crafted by Nolan, wherein his villain is simply as smart as the plot demands.
That's why one of these guys is a visionary who, despite his flaws, has changed the course of cinema history, and the other is Christopher Nolan.
S
Well, neither turn to the “dark side” is realistic.
I've seen this time and time again, but I never see reasons why people find it unrealistic.
S
But Dent did just lose his love while Anakin hadn’t even lost his, all he had was that dumb dream of her supposedly dying. This caused Anakin to do way worse stuff than Dent did.
Ah, but what's more compelling and reasonable? A man targeting the wrong people out of a twisted sense of revenge (Dent), or a man who is desperate and willing to do anything to prevent the loss of a woman he loves (Skywalker)?
Anakin was willing to do whatever it took because he was manipulated into believing was required for him to save his wife.
S
Also, the Anakin turning Sith apprentice did happen quite abrupt. He is cheerfully saying goodbye to Obi-Wan and a few scenes later he is Vader.
This is a bit of an exaggeration, to say the least. Anakin's transformation was not abrupt, the decision was. Palpatine forced his hand with Windu's death, and Anakin was committed down a one way path. He had already attacked the senior member of the Jedi High Council; what exactly was holding him back from saving Padme now?
But as I said, we see on Mustafar that Anakin is hardly a creature of pure evil; he's visibly distraught and conflicted with the things he did.
S
Subjective again, I found the Joker’s adaptations far more interesting. But I’m curious to which ones of Palpatine you are referring to.
In E1, Amidala escapes Naboo, foils Maul's attempt to captures her, and goes on to thwart the treaty and defeat Gunray, contrary to Palpatine's initial plan. He manages to seize victory from the jaws of defeat by persuading her that Valorum is ineffective and, instead of a protracted campaign, has her oust Valorum in a matter of days.
In E2, Amidala (the prime opponent of the Military Creation Act [which would enable Palpatine to reveal the clone army]) manages to avoid death, keeping her an obstacle in Palpatine's true plans. Through adaptation, however, he manages to arrange events so Skywalker and Amidala are brought together again -- putting temptation in Anakin's path -- and getting Amidala off Naboo so the Military Creation Act will manage to pass in the Senate. Fett and Zam's blunder exposes the clone army sooner than expected, but the speed of the crisis with the Separatists allow him to manipulate Jar-Jar into granting him emergency powers.
In E3, Palpatine is unable to rid himself of Obi-Wan, despite having tried to kill him roughly two times (through Dooku and Grievous), but manipulates events to simply get him off world so he can focus on Anakin; Anakin, instead of immediately bowing to Palpatine, does the right thing and informs the Council of Palpatine's Sith allegiance; Palpatine manages to use this to force Anakin's hand by putting himself in a situation in which Windu may kill him, thus Anakin risks losing his only shot of saving Padme. In order to keep that option available, Anakin interferes on Palpatine's behalf against Windu, making him complicit in the death of a Jedi Master. He has no one else to turn to but Palpatine. Likewise, Palpatine's plans are hampered when Anakin is defeated by Obi-Wan, but he's able to adapt by putting Vader into a suit.
Thus a series of complex and interesting gambits by Palpatine, many of which end in failure, forcing him to adapt. This is a complex and well written plot that transcends what Nolan has given for the Joker.
S
Still, the loss of his apprentice isn’t due to an intelligent adversary, but plain PIS. As I recall (although I don’t like to watch TPM) the entire droid army was disabled by Anakin thus winning the battle for the Gungan Army. Speaking of which, I wouldn’t call the alliance with the Gungans an intelligent move, I would call them very lucky to have come across Jar Jar Binks. Also watch this at 1:39.
But, as mentioned before, neither the loss of Maul or the Gungun army holding off the droid forces is what foils the plot on Naboo; it's when Amidala captures Gunray, which was not the result of PIS or hack writing.
S
It’s like, a tradition… They do it all the time, look at TPM.
For Queens. Which... Amidala... is... not... in E2.
S
Very risky.
But the risk was factored into the strategy; it wasn't the result of sheer dumb luck.
S
Dent was already on edge, he just needed a little push like the Joker said.
You've yet to provide convincing reasons why Dent's corruption is as realistic as Anakin's, much less more convincing. Your reason seems to be that "Dent lost his wife so he was on the edge so he needed a push and the Joker gave it so it all makes sense."
But when I direct your attention to Anakin, it's... different? Because Anakin can't be pushed? Because corruption is different in Star Wars? Because silly, inexplicable actions can only be excused when the Joker masterminds them?
S
In my opinion, Palpatine’s victory is hack writing.
😂 😂 😂
seriously watch every single one of these. They are literally gold. I cannot call star wars good movies now.