What exactly is going on here? I did two things in that post.
[list=1]
[*]Develop a well reasoned, supported, and internally consistent argument regarding Nihilius's power levels and place in the mythos.
[*]Edited in a tag-line claiming that N. was "as much a nexus" as Palpatine, without checking any sources whatsoever.[/list]
I hereby formally and unequivocally revoke the following lines of text. Maybe Gideon will be able to cut the ad hominem attacks about [2] and get to work* on [1].
Originally posted and now disavowed by me
To whatever extent Darth Sidious is a Nexus, so too is N.
*Note: I do not accept the wholesale dismissal of four independent sources regarding N.'s powers. Such an act would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Originally posted by Zampanó
I hereby formally and unequivocally revoke the following lines of text.
I accept your concession with appropriate humility and respect b1tch.
Z.
*Note: I do not accept the wholesale dismissal of four independent sources regarding N.'s powers. Such an act would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I take issue with two. First, as I explained, Kreia was referring to more than just Nihilus, as indicated by the phrase "Lords of the Sith." Second, Visas was, by her own admission, speculating as to the extent of Nihilus's power. References to multiple Sith Lords do not constitute a reference to Nihilus alone. Speculation as to the extent of Nihilus's power does not constitute incontrovertible fact.
Neph, my sweet, I haff reternd 2 beet ur a$$ lulz
My underlining problem with your interpretation of sources is the selectivity. TJ and Lucien have made the case as to why Kreia's testimony might be regarded with a measure of skepticism. For my part, I find Visas and Tobin to be even more unreliable. Both, perhaps due to the mental thrall Nihilus has over them, are suitably cowed by the Dark Lord. Visas says things like "you are the darkness in which all life dies, my lord" and "all life exists to feed you" and "he's too powerful" (right before the Exile and co. kill him). Tobin has never been established to be an expert on matters of the Force and he, too, issues commentary that strain credulity. "Grains of sand," indeed -- his words are rife with what I would consider to be hyperbole -- particularly when Nihilus is overpowered and killed by the Exile.
Do I honestly believe that Palpatine is a black hole of the Force? No. But the point is that, using your own standards and logic chain, I can arrive at the conclusion that Dooku was speaking literally. The good Count has a career as a Jedi Master and Sith apprentice that far outclasses that of either Visas or Tobin. We have more reason to believe that Dooku is an expert on the Force than either of them. More importantly, whatever "thrall" Dooku was under by Palpatine wasn't Force-based. There were no manipulations or tamperings beyond the mere psychological. We know that Dooku wasn't a Sith in just name: He's studied the Sith arts under Palpatine. Dark Rendezvous mentions that Dooku would never "question the power of Darth Sidious." Nihilus used the Force to dominate those around him; Palpatine didn't need to use the Force to cow Dooku. It was through their interactions that the Count grew to fear his Master.
The reason that Dooku's testimony holds weight is that someone of his caliber is not likely to scare easily. This is a man who threw himself at Yoda without a second thought, fleeing only when he felt he was at a disadvantage. Why, then, would he fear crossing his Master?
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Visas and Tobin are incontrovertible in their testimony and beliefs on Nihilus and yet Dooku, whose Force-based career outstrips either of theirs, is to be disregarded.
None.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUu8P3uxZuQ&NR=1
when did ziro get arrested again? He escaped at the end of season 1.
Originally posted by truejedi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUu8P3uxZuQ&NR=1when did ziro get arrested again? He escaped at the end of season 1.
Until Pursuit of Peace, Clone Wars episodes are not featured in chronological order.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Neph, my sweet, I haff reternd 2 beet ur a$$ lulz[...] Tobin has never been established to be an expert on matters of the Force and he, too, issues commentary that strain credulity. "Grains of sand," indeed -- his words are rife with what I would consider to be hyperbole -- particularly when Nihilus is overpowered and killed by the Exile.
[...]
This is clearly out of context.
Nihilus is literally weakened and starved by his attempt to feed on the Exile because of her status as a Force-wound. Nowhere is Nihilus considered an insignificant Sith Lord because the Exile beat him, good lord. With this kind of logic, one handed Darth Vader is superior to the darkest blackety black hole of the evil shiftiest darkness Sidious. So is gravity.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Visas and Tobin are incontrovertible in their testimony and beliefs on Nihilus and yet Dooku, whose Force-based career outstrips either of theirs, is to be disregarded.None.
So Dooku, the lying, ambitious, racist and self-over-estimating Sith Lord is the absolute best source to cite Sidious' power in reference to his own, but Visas and Tobin - both victims of and witnesses of Nihilus' powers on a cosmic scale - are liars, fools, gullible, prone to hyperbole, and not intended to shed light on the primary antagonist in the only media in which he is distinctly featured.
Gotcha.
SM
Nowhere is Nihilus considered an insignificant Sith Lord because the Exile beat him, good lord.
SM
This is clearly out of context.
👆
Where did I claim or suggest Nihilus was insignificant because he wasn't infallible like Tobin and Visas tend to believe?
SM
So Dooku, the lying, ambitious, racist and self-over-estimating Sith Lord is the absolute best source to cite Sidious' power in reference to his own, but Visas and Tobin - both victims of and witnesses of Nihilus' powers on a cosmic scale - are liars, fools, gullible, prone to hyperbole, and not intended to shed light on the primary antagonist in the only media in which he is distinctly featured.Gotcha.
SM
This is clearly out of context.
Me
Do I honestly believe that Palpatine is a black hole of the Force? No.
Me
👆
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Tobin didn't worship anybody, he doesn't understand the mechanics of the force, and he had reason to lie. This point keeps getting argued to death.
And are you ignoring the part where he is the game developers' mouthpiece for N.'s exposition?
Originally posted by Zampanó
And are you ignoring the part where he is the game developers' mouthpiece for N.'s exposition?
No one's ignoring it. But taking it to extremes [as you are], then mustn't we assume everything Tobin said is true? Like the part where the Exile's gonna die and they're like grains of sand on a big ass beach or whatevz? Y'know, the stuff that didn't actually happen?
edit: I mean, hell, we have proof that George Lucas line edited and personally approved of the contents of the ROTS novelization. Does that mean Darth Sidious is, in fact, a black hole of the Force? There seems to be an awful lot of cherrypicking from the other camp.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Neph, my sweet, I haff reternd 2 beet ur a$$ lulzMy underlining problem with your interpretation of sources is the selectivity. TJ and Lucien have made the case as to why Kreia's testimony might be regarded with a measure of skepticism. For my part, I find Visas and Tobin to be even more unreliable. Both, perhaps due to the mental thrall Nihilus has over them, are suitably cowed by the Dark Lord. Visas says things like "you are the darkness in which all life dies, my lord" and "all life exists to feed you" and "he's too powerful" (right before the Exile and co. kill him). Tobin has never been established to be an expert on matters of the Force and he, too, issues commentary that strain credulity. "Grains of sand," indeed -- his words are rife with what I would consider to be hyperbole -- particularly when Nihilus is overpowered and killed by the Exile.
You wield that last statement as though it is the nail in a coffin, and I do not understand why. The Exile is clearly shown to be a walking disaster, wading through dozens of the Galaxy's most dangerous thugs while holding her breath, as well as cutting through roughly 50 Sith Lords on Malachor. Losing to The "doppleganger" Exile and Visas "Force Bonded Apprentice" Marr, aided of course by Mandalore "the Ultimate" (ultimate badass) does not strike me as particularly unseemly. Palpatine was killed by Han's pistol.
Lucien has pointed out only that Kreia desires to have the Exile kill her usurper. Given how dead-set she is on success, it is unlikely that she would not compromise the Exile's position by giving her functionally inaccurate intel. Rather, the worst lies would be those of omission, moral issues that would hamper the Exile's drive to kill this threat. (That N. is a threat is shown by Unseen, Unheard. That much is not in question.) Kreia would want her weapon to be as sharp as possible.
Do I honestly believe that Palpatine is a black hole of the Force? No. But the point is that, using your own standards and logic chain, I can arrive at the conclusion that Dooku was speaking literally. The good Count has a career as a Jedi Master and Sith apprentice that far outclasses that of either Visas or Tobin. We have more reason to believe that Dooku is an expert on the Force than either of them. More importantly, whatever "thrall" Dooku was under by Palpatine wasn't Force-based. There were no manipulations or tamperings beyond the mere psychological. We know that Dooku wasn't a Sith in just name: He's studied the Sith arts under Palpatine. Dark Rendezvous mentions that Dooku would never "question the power of Darth Sidious." Nihilus used the Force to dominate those around him; Palpatine didn't need to use the Force to cow Dooku. It was through their interactions that the Count grew to fear his Master.The reason that Dooku's testimony holds weight is that someone of his caliber is not likely to scare easily. This is a man who threw himself at Yoda without a second thought, fleeing only when he felt he was at a disadvantage. Why, then, would he fear crossing his Master?
Another limitation is the manner in which the "black hole" quote is introduced. Kenobi and Skywalker are also described in the passage, using undeniably poetic language ("sunny meadow" and "darkening thunderstorm? Really Matthew Stover? Really?). That particular quote is less likely, then, to be a metaphysical treatise than mere purple prose. (Whereas the N. quotes are all dealing with the fundamental nature of a character desperately needing development.)
I'm sure there are other reasons to be found, but honestly I don't see any reason to try to toss out sources of any kind. Everything that can be used in an evaluation should be, and this is one example of a quote supporting Palpatine. Dooku's inner monologue unquestionably includes one evaluation of Palpatine as a black hole of the Force. Whether this means that Palpatine is best described as such is up for argument, but simply ignoring it because it is outlandish (as you suggest, by proposing this conclusion as a reducto ad absurdum counterpoint to my own) is shortsightedly glib. If you believe that Palpatine can be described as a "black hole of the Force" then by all means, construct your argument. (I have tried to be careful not to act as though you believe that.) If it is consistent, logical, and persuasive then I hope your audience will be able to admit your accomplishment, rather than reject unwanted conclusions out of hand.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Visas and Tobin are incontrovertible in their testimony and beliefs on Nihilus and yet Dooku, whose Force-based career outstrips either of theirs, is to be disregarded.None.
Well, without boring you with the details, C-14 dating operates on a specific type of reaction in the nucleus of an atom. Other types of dating use different types of reactions. In the case of varying rates, the different principles ruling the different reactions would shift in differing amounts, thus giving contradictory ages. A similar principle is in effect here. Kreia, wanting the Exile to kill N., would tell the Exile exactly what would be necessary to prompt a successful confrontation. Tobin has no such motive; he fully expects the Exile to die. Another source, N.'s apprentice herself, carries her own agenda which includes the survival of the Jedi Exile. "My life for yours," indeed. Even though the three 'witnesses' have wildly different biases and agendas, their testimonies are largely consistent with one another. More importantly, there are out-of-universe reasons to believe what Tobin, especially, says about N. Consistent accounts, backed by out-of-universe circumstances, are as strong a case as is possible to make for the character.
The bottom line is that there is a consistent account of N.'s abilities, and it is as I have reported. Moreover, that same account is consistent with the intentions of the game designers themselves. Finally, the characters in question who gain a personal edge by lying do so in opposite directions; any lie told by Kreia would have been countered by a lie from Visas. Where they all agree despite their conflicting interests is where we can be sure that they are telling the truth.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
No one's ignoring it. But taking it to extremes [as you are], then mustn't we assume everything Tobin said is true? Like the part where the Exile's gonna die and they're like grains of sand on a big ass beach or whatevz? Y'know, the stuff that didn't actually happen?[b]edit
: I mean, hell, we have proof that George Lucas line edited and personally approved of the contents of the ROTS novelization. Does that mean Darth Sidious is, in fact, a black hole of the Force? There seems to be an awful lot of cherrypicking from the other camp. [/B]
I am making use of the available information to come to a conclusion. It is my opinion that the information is fundamentally sound; a conspiracy across three opposing factions is too much to believe. If the characters are lying, they are doing so only in their own (opposing) best interests. Because those interests oppose, only the truth should be constant across all three.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
I'm heading out for a swim, but I'll be back later toutterly annihilate your entire worldviewdiscuss the matter with you in civil discourse.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/10/navy-halts-allow-gay-unions-chaplains/
Veneficus is going to be pissed, lol.