Originally posted by truejedi
and if this trumps THAT, then it means ALL of jedi twilight is retconned, because Piel goes to the protagonist at the beginning of the first book and gives him his mission. without piel being there, then the book series never happens.
Easy fix, it was a different Jedi in the novel.
Rather than initiate a debate that entails sentence-by-sentence dissections, Z., I’m going to step off the merry-go-round and try a different approach that’s probably more appropriate for a discussion of broad topics.
Understand, firstly, that I’m not trying to say that death at the hands of the Exile and her companions means that Nihilus is somehow insignificant, weak, or pathetic. The point is that his death means he’s fallible—it flies right in the face of what both Visas and Tobin suggest about him: That he’s some sort of all powerful Force vacuum which “all life exists to feed!” The reality is that, based on canon events, the Exile and co. were not “grains of sand” on a beach or “dust motes in a storm” or whatever. (In that regard, I find it interesting that you dismiss Stover’s prose as “poetic” while stuff like that apparently gets a free pass; it’s perplexing and I’d like you to distinguish between them.)
While Colonel Tobin is apparently a mouthpiece for the authors to dump exposition, that doesn’t mean everything he says is literally factual. Similarly, though the Revenge of the Sith novelization was line-edited and approved by George Lucas, it doesn’t mean that Palpatine is literally a black hole of the Force. The overall point of Tobin’s diatribes is that Nihilus is extremely powerful and highly dangerous—that doesn’t mean that everything Tobin or Visas say about him is literally the case. Furthermore, as I explained numerous times, when Visas says that Nihilus might grow powerful enough to kill the Force, she qualifies the statement: “I do not know what will happen.”
Since when did speculation plus speculation equal undeniable fact? That’s where you and I differ. One could make an argument for Palpatine being “a black hole of the Force”—it is established throughout many sources that the man was singlehandedly killing the Jedi order’s connection to the Force. The difference is that the other corroborating sources aren’t the speculation or “poetic” language of fallible characters whose expertise in the Force is minimal. (I refer not to Kreia, who is certainly a Force expert, but Visas and Tobin.)
Likewise, the idea that it is factual because it is used to speak to Nihilus’s character is flimsy. The ROTS novelization doesn’t feature passages from Palpatine’s perspective—which apparently Stover took great care to avoid. Therefore, one could make the argument that the observations of someone like Count Dooku—whose training and Force-related career is far more impressive than that of Visas, let alone Tobin—who knows Palpatine, respects power, and has absolutely no reason to lie or exaggerate given that it comes from his internal monologue is completely relevant to expounding on Palpatine’s character and motivations.
From my perspective, I see not one category in which my evidence doesn’t either equal or transcend yours in terms of validity, but you seem opposed to the idea.
The novelization was line-edited by Lucas; “Everything that’s in the book is because Mr. Lucas wants it there. Period.” – Matthew Stover. Given Palpatine’s enigmatic presence, like Nihilus, the observations and claims of characters who know him absolutely speak to his fundamental nature.
Expertise: Count Dooku’s seven decades as a Jedi Master and decade of Sith training afford him accolades lightyears beyond Visas Marr or Colonel Tobin. Only Kreia serves as any competition in this regard.
Weren’t both Visas and Tobin enthralled by Nihilus through the Force? Palpatine’s “thrall” has not been established to be from Force-assisted means.
Numerous sources—ranging from the official databank to film comic adaptations to novelizations to sourcebooks—corroborate that Palpatine weakened the Force for the Jedi.
Tobin and Visas demonstrably use “poetic” language as regards Nihilus (“grains of sand”; “all life exists to feed you”) no more than the good Count. Moreover, Dooku was not speaking to any sort of audience, and thus has no reason to indulge biases within his own mind. Is it still possible that he is biased? Sure, but he has less reason than Visas or Tobin.
I’m just not seeing how yours is a more valid conclusion than mine.
Understand, firstly, that I’m not trying to say that death at the hands of the Exile and her companions means that Nihilus is somehow insignificant, weak, or pathetic. The point is that his death means he’s fallible—it flies right in the face of what both Visas and Tobin suggest about him: That he’s some sort of all powerful Force vacuum which “all life exists to feed!” The reality is that, based on canon events, the Exile and co. were not “grains of sand” on a beach or “dust motes in a storm” or whatever.
This is absolutely no reason to disregard what they say at all. The Exile and co. were insignificant to Nihilus and they were completely tooled with zero effort. It was only through an afore-unseen attribute of the Exiles that they stood a chance against him, an attribute that as of the time Tobin and Visas were speaking, was completely unknown. It is utterly moronic to suggest that they are somehow unreliable sources just because they were wrong about a subject because of something that they could of had no way of factoring into their assessment.
Utterly. Moronic.
Tobin and Visas demonstrably use “poetic” language as regards Nihilus (“grains of sand”; “all life exists to feed you”) no more than the good Count.
Yes but we are not talking about times when they engage in poetic language, as Dooku does in his respective quote. We are talking about actual things that they are saying. there is nothing poetic about Tobins claim that he got the ship from Malachor, nor is there about his claim that he leeches life etc from those around him. In teh case of Visas, her claim that he might go on to destroy all life is an informed possibility that she is putting forward based on her knowledge about him. Again, nothing poetic and ambiguous about that at all.
N., unclench. I remember, not too long ago, you were whining and b1tching about me being hostile towards you. Simply because I don't share your mancrush on Nihilus (my heart lies elsewhere, with the true Lord of the Sith [Palpatine]) or your reasons for arriving at the conclusion you do doesn't mean you should get this uptight.
Let it go and don't let your pride get the better of you.
I'll be back later to address you if you can keep your hostility to yourself.