Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it would be tantamount to the leader of the Army telling the President
In the United States of America, the president is the leader of the Army. In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine is also the highest authority in the Republic military, based on his executive order against the Jedi, issued without evidence or complaint.
Originally posted by Nephthys
that he's a little worried that the guys very obviously trying to set up a dictatorship and that that shits not gonna fly. Particularly when Palpatine promised to end the war and give up his emergancy powers when Grievous was dead, and [b]did not do so![/b]
"But with Count Dooku dead, [Grievous] is the leader of the droid army. And I can assure you the Senate will vote to continue the war as long as Grievous is alive."
Palpatine never promises to end the war.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As explained above, Palpatine not giving up his emergency powers when the only actual leaders of the CIS are both dead could only be seen as suspicious.
Count Dooku and General Grievous are not the only two leaders of the CIS, simply the two highest ranking ones. Palpatine could very easily argue that until the entirety of the Separatist leadership is captured or eliminated, that the CIS still poses a credible threat to the Republic.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Asking him why he feels that only he is capable of leading and why he's not stepping down can only be positive for the Jedi, particularly when he's admitted to Anakin that he's a Sith Lord.
As I mentioned above, Palpatine has more than enough rationale to justify the continuation of the war.
However, I'm confused as to the nature of yours and Mr. Plinkett's hypothetical: Does this scenario occur right after Anakin has confessed Palpatine's true identity to Mace?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Plinketts point was to try to find facts to tie him to the Clone Army.
But there aren't any.
Originally posted by Nephthys
In the movie theres no evidence that they've actually looked into it, which is really dumb considering how immensely suspicious it is.
There is nothing to tie Palpatine to the creation of the Clone Army. He didn't even foot the bill; he had Dooku do it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is never explained in the movie. Its never explained how the can be in the same room and not even get a tingling for the guy. Hell, Windu even says that they can feel that 'darkness surrounds the Chancellor.'
Understood, but that Windu didn't react immediately indicates that he didn't mean Palpatine is a dark side Force user. That is ultimately why, of course, Palpatine is surrounded by darkness, but Windu is unable or unwilling to believe that a Sith Lord could have walked among them for so long undetected.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not when he actually admits to being a Dark Lord to Anakin
Whom Mace doesn't trust.
Originally posted by Nephthys
or when the Jedi know that a Sith lord is in the Senate,
According to Count Dooku and Dooku alone.
Originally posted by Nephthys
can sense the darkside around him
Addressed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
and suddenly Palpatine has an ultra-high midi-chlorian count.
The midichlorian count alone does not indicate Force training, let alone allegiance.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi go there to arrest him and do tell him he's under arrest. Confronting him in public just makes sure that it goes smoothly. Arresting him in public is a 100% certainty that he's out of power.
Not at all. Arresting Palpatine publicly or otherwise doesn't assure that he's removed from power on any level. As Windu says to Anakin, Palpatine controls the Senate and the Courts and he's obviously not talking about mere authority as Chancellor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Confronting a Sith Lord in his office where no-one can see you is basically asking for you to get raped and the blame put on you.
Perhaps. But then, they were convinced they'd overcome him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatine explicitly calls him 'my new apprentice' and 'Lord Vader', moreorless admitting that they're Sith and as Sith that he manipulated the galaxy into war.
dontgetit
Addressing Anakin as Vader and proclaiming him to be an apprentice "more or less" indicates Sith allegiance and that they initiated, maintained, and ended the Clone Wars for personal gain?
To say that that's a stretch would be generous.
You do realize that the only evidence the Jedi have in the films that a Darth Sidious even exists is Count Dooku's word, right?
Originally posted by Nephthys
From here his entire plan falls apart.
That seems fairly naive in thinking. Palpatine is a superb politician and mastermind, who commands universal respect and support from the Senate, Supreme Court, and army. Confronting him in public and combining it with a recording of which nothing damning is admitted isn't sufficient to collapse his plan.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You and I know that. Does the audience?
After they saw Obi-Wan so neatly trashed by Dooku? I'd hope so. But then Plinkett certainly believes victory would be assured, so....
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
In the United States of America, the president is the leader of the Army. In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine is also the highest authority in the Republic military, based on his executive order against the Jedi, issued without evidence or complaint.
Stop being pedantic. You know what I mean, the highest military leader who is not Palpatine. Plinkett did not say to tell him to step down, but rather to point out that his term is up and that theres very little reason for him to still be in power. That they should ask him why he shouldn't be stepping down from power, and why he in particular is the only man who can have that power and to conduct the war, especially when he has had no actual strategic training and that not a week earlier he was kidnapped in the Galactic Capital.
"But with Count Dooku dead, [Grievous] is the leader of the droid army. And I can assure you the Senate will vote to continue the war as long as Grievous is alive."Palpatine never promises to end the war.
Again you're being pedantic. The fact remains that the CIS has lost its military leaders inside of a week. Do you really think Nute fvcking Gunray can lead the armies of the CIS to victory? At the very least its a point where they should be asking him to stop the war and relinquish his emergency powers.
Count Dooku and General Grievous are not the only two leaders of the CIS, simply the two highest ranking ones. Palpatine could very easily argue that until the entirety of the Separatist leadership is captured or eliminated, that the CIS still poses a credible threat to the Republic.
Bullshit. How 'credible' can a threat be when its two highest ranking members are taken out inside of a week. The CIS is effectively broken after Greivous dies. Again, Nute motherfvcking Gunray.
As I mentioned above, Palpatine has more than enough rationale to justify the continuation of the war.
No, he really doesn't.
However, I'm confused as to the nature of yours and Mr. Plinkett's hypothetical: Does this scenario occur right after Anakin has confessed Palpatine's true identity to Mace?
I assume so. Theres no reason work to kick him out before then is there?
But there aren't any.
How the hell do you know that? Is that in the script?
There is nothing to tie Palpatine to the creation of the Clone Army. He didn't even foot the bill; he had Dooku do it.
Its never shown that theres nothing linking him to it. Stop making shit up.
Understood, but that Windu didn't react immediately indicates that he didn't mean Palpatine is a dark side Force user. That is ultimately why, of course, Palpatine is surrounded by darkness, but Windu is unable or unwilling to believe that a Sith Lord could have walked among them for so long undetected.
Again, is that last part ever actually made clear? Plinkett was arguing that they should try to sense Palpatines intentions with the Force, really examine him with it and if they were unable to do that then obviously someone is blocking them. That seems pretty obvious to me.
Whom Mace doesn't trust.
He trusted him enough to rush and arrest Palpatine when he told him, so obviously he believed him.
According to Count Dooku and Dooku alone.
Also basic logic.
Addressed.
Oh, you.
The midichlorian count alone does not indicate Force training, let alone allegiance.
Theres no way they would base this on that alone and you know that isn't what he meant.
Not at all. Arresting Palpatine publicly or otherwise doesn't assure that he's removed from power on any level. As Windu says to Anakin, Palpatine controls the Senate and the Courts and he's obviously not talking about mere authority as Chancellor.
Then they can just kill him in his cell. Its the same thing as assassinating him in his office and carries exactly zero the risk.
Perhaps. But then, they were convinced they'd overcome him.
Hence why Plinkett called them morons.
dontgetitAddressing Anakin as Vader and proclaiming him to be an apprentice "more or less" indicates Sith allegiance [b]and
that they initiated, maintained, and ended the Clone Wars for personal gain?To say that that's a stretch would be generous.
You do realize that the only evidence the Jedi have in the films that a Darth Sidious even exists is Count Dooku's word, right?[/b]
Use your head Gideon. The Jedi know that there are only ever two Sith, that Dooku was one and that he had a master. Dooku has just died, and suddenly Sidious is addressing Anakin by a name that isn't his actual one, Vader, in true Sith tradition and as 'Lord'. Anakin, a Jedi Knight, is kneeling before him and calling him 'master'.
At the very least it would cause some serious questions to be asked. What the hell else could they be talking about? Some incredibly kinky sex game?
If Sidious is connected to the Sith then its incredibly obvious that he started the war considering that a) The Sith (Dooku) started the war and b) Thats what gave Palpatine is emergency powers. Do you think the Senate woud just shrug at finding out that the opposing leaders of two sides in a war are members of the same club?
Other than the darkside surrounding him right? And the fact that he somehow singlehandedly killed 4 Jedi Masters?
That seems fairly naive in thinking. Palpatine is a superb politician and mastermind, who commands universal respect and support from the Senate, Supreme Court, and army. Confronting him in public and combining it with a recording of which nothing damning is admitted isn't sufficient to collapse his plan.
It is when combined with all the list. The recording, midi-chlorian count, not being able to sense him etc all point to him being a Sith Lord.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Is my post not civil?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Stop being pedantic. You know what I mean,
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again you're being pedantic.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bullshit.
Originally posted by Nephthys
How the hell do you know that? Is that in the script?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Stop making shit up.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Use your head Gideon.
Not at all. You seem unusually agitated. Especially when this from me is considered snide by you (knowing that I was teasing, indicated by liberal use of emoticons), I'd appreciate if this debate about ROTS and Palpatine doesn't follow the usual path.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I consider that to be fairly restrained. Eh, different strokes I guess. I'll keep the naughty words to a minimal from now on. Don't want to hurt you feewings.
You weren't being extraordinarily belligerent, but you certainly altered the otherwise completely respectful nature of the discussion. Given that our history of discussing this sort of topic always ends rather badly and you're the one who is usually concerned with civility, I figured we could just cut it off at the pass.
Excellent!
edited due to your recent post, which I didn't see, which means we don't need to carry on, I'll respond to your argument here