Distressed Watcher's review may be not as good as RLMs, but his idea of Palpatine as the protagonist of the prequels intrigues and excites me.
Yeah, that would have been cool.
Edit: I stole you away from your mother as a child and then I cut off your legs and now I'm gonna scream at you about how horrible you are!
Originally posted by Nephthys
Stop being pedantic. You know what I mean, the highest military leader who is not Palpatine. Plinkett did not say to [b]tell him to step down, but rather to point out that his term is up and that theres very little reason for him to still be in power.[/b]
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again you're being pedantic. The fact remains that the CIS has lost its military leaders inside of a week. Do you really think Nute fvcking Gunray can lead the armies of the CIS to victory? At the very least its a point where they should be asking him to stop the war and relinquish his emergency powers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bullshit. How 'credible' can a threat be when its two highest ranking members are taken out inside of a week. The CIS is effectively broken after Greivous dies. Again, Nute motherfvcking Gunray.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he really doesn't.
The crux of the issue here is that while the deaths of Dooku and Grievous greatly impeded the Separatist war effort, it by no means ended it. Mace Windu notes in Shatterpoint that Dooku ceased to be the war’s shatterpoint after the confrontation on Geonosis and dismisses Grievous almost entirely out of hand in Revenge of the Sith until Palpatine tells him that the Senate believes otherwise; Labyrinth of Evil and The Complete Visual Dictionary refer to Darth Sidious as “the true power” behind the Confederacy. The simple canon fact is that the Separatists were still dangerous even without the Count and general in command; that Palpatine ordered the Separatist Council’s execution at Vader’s hands is proof enough of this. In fact, that in itself is telling: Not only did Palpatine consider the Confederacy a threat to the Republic at large, he, "the true power" behind them, also considered them a threat to his own plans.
While you may not believe a Dooku- and Grievous-less Confederacy to be a credible threat, the fact remains that Palpatine did, as both Chancellor and Sith Lord. Real world history has also shown that a vast war machine, even under the command of incompetent generals (which Gunray and co. undoubtedly are), can still be very dangerous to an organized and efficient military force. You need only look at World War II for extensive examples.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That they should ask him why he shouldn't be stepping down from power, and why he in particular is the only man who can have that power and to conduct the war, especially when he has had no actual strategic training and that not a week earlier he was kidnapped in the Galactic Capital.
Palpatine's abilities as a strategist are arguably the foremost in the entire mythos. Even as Supreme Chancellor, Palpatine was able to guide the war in such a way that the Separatists were clearly on the backfoot prior to their sneak attack of Coruscant. He was hardly a George Bush.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I assume so. Theres no reason work to kick him out before then is there?
Okay.
Originally posted by Nephthys
How the hell do you know that? Is that in the script?
Because the films do not show any.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its never shown that theres nothing linking him to it. Stop making shit up.
Responsible debaters don't assume facts not in evidence. Neither the film nor script make any direct connection to Palpatine. The Kaminoan administrators inform Obi-Wan that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas issued the order and Jango Fett confirms that the payments were directed by [Darth] Tyranus.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, is that last part ever actually made clear? Plinkett was arguing that they should try to sense Palpatines intentions with the Force, really examine him with it and if they were unable to do that then obviously someone is blocking them. That seems pretty obvious to me.
What seems obvious to me is that Palpatine has not been registering to Jedi as some sort of tabula rasa in the Force, an impenetrable void undetected by Jedi. He was clearly able to deceive Jedi Masters and their command of the Force, which isn't surprising given that Revenge of the Sith gives him relatively straightforward telepathic powers (he communicates with Anakin through the Force as Windu and company approach his office).
Originally posted by Nephthys
He trusted him enough to rush and arrest Palpatine when he told him, so obviously he believed him.
He was planning on confronting Palpatine before that, though, remember? He was on his way when Anakin spilled the beans.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also basic logic.
Citing basic logic doesn't point it out. Dooku is the only source of information the Jedi had on Sidious.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no way they would base this on that alone and you know that isn't what he meant.
But it's really all they had.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Then they can just kill him in his cell. Its the same thing as assassinating him in his office and carries exactly zero the risk.
Windu didn't confront Palpatine with the intent to kill him. Outright assassination isn't exactly in the old Jedi order's playbook.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hence why Plinkett called them morons.
A character is a moron for miscalculating? I suppose so, that's an epidemic found in every single movie ever.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi know that there are only ever two Sith, that Dooku was one and that he had a master.
With you so far.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku has just died, and suddenly Sidious is addressing Anakin by a name that isn't his actual one, Vader, in true Sith tradition and as 'Lord'. Anakin, a Jedi Knight, is kneeling before him and calling him 'master'.
All of this is wafer-thin. The Jedi haven't any evidence that the second Sith is controlling the Senate, and I won't even begin to point out the flaws in the rest. (Arresting Palpatine based on Anakin kneeling before him and addressing him as his lord?)
Originally posted by Nephthys
At the very least it would cause some serious questions to be asked. What the hell else could they be talking about? Some incredibly kinky sex game?
Again, I'm confused as to the timeline of your hypothetical. That recording only ever occurred after the issue of Order Sixty-six and Windu's death, which in your hypothetical, doesn't happen.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If Sidious is connected to the Sith then its incredibly obvious that he started the war considering that a) The Sith (Dooku) started the war
Actually, the Republic did. Obi-Wan was arrested for espionage on a secessionist planet which the Republic invaded in order to rescue him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
and b) Thats what gave Palpatine is emergency powers.
Palpatine took active steps to delay the Military Creation Act, referenced in Attack of the Clones. If anything, it would look as exactly as it planned: He reluctantly assumed powers given to him by the Senate. He didn't ask for them, didn't lobby for them, and made no active effort to acquire these powers in the first place.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you think the Senate woud just shrug at finding out that the opposing leaders of two sides in a war are members of the same club?
But that wouldn't happen.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It is when combined with all the list. The recording, midi-chlorian count, not being able to sense him etc all point to him being a Sith Lord.
The recording doesn't occur in your hypothetical scenario, the midichlorian count doesn't indicate training, skill, or allegiance, and obviously they were able to sense him in the Force, just not his true intent.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well clearly she was looking upon her subjugated people and is deeply conflicted about her actions and other bullshit that I forgot he said.
I encourage you to read the entire thing. Raynor fumbles every now and then and fails to defeat all of Plinkett's points, but it is a thoroughly detailed and ultimately successful rebuttal.