Zoroastrianism

Yes. However, intelligent people realize that that is a false argument.

You can make an argument, but its far from proven.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Uh NO...go back and read.

There is [b]NO certain date for the origins of Zoroastrianism, just like there is NO certain date for Judaism. [/B]

Originally posted by Regret
Yes, and so Zoroastrianism is not necessarily older than Judaism. Your impetus post for this thread is thus baseless, by your own admission.

Yes, my earlier claims are not 100% valid. But neither are your own.

The answer of who is right or wrong in this matter, in terms of which religion predated the other (Zoroastrianism or Judaism) may never be answered, because there are too many varied sources making contradictory claims.

Originally posted by Alliance
Yes. However, intelligent people realize that that is a false argument.

You can make an argument, but its far from proven.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, my earlier claims are not 100% valid. But neither are your own.

The answer of who is right or wrong in this matter, in terms of which religion predated the other (Zoroastrianism or Judaism) may never be answered, because there are too many varied sources making contradictory claims.

Originally posted by Regret
And so it seems, as a Christian, I have have responded more than adequately to your impetus post.

My posts are as impetus as your own, since you have no factual basis to go on with your beleifs.

Your religion is your right to have, but it is only a religion...it is not based on actual facts.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
My posts are as impetus as your own, since you have no factual basis to go on with your beleifs.

Your religion is your right to have, but it is only a religion...it is not based on actual facts.

It may be based on actual facts, the facts in question are merely doubted as to their validity.

Originally posted by Regret
😆 😆 Impetus means instigating. Your impetus post is the post that began this thread.

It may be based on actual facts, the facts in question are merely doubted as to their validity.

And you don't instigate ? When you claim that your beleifs are true, you also claim that all others are false, regardless of whether you mean to or not.

Those are challenging and offensive claims to make, JUST as challenging and offensive as my own.

Neither of us can claim our beleif is FACT or TRUTH, because neither of us have PROOF....we both have evidense yes, but our evidense contradicts each other's, and the only way to surely know who is correct, is by finding some kind of CONCLUSIVE and undeniable evidense to confirm the truth.

That may never happen...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And you don't instigate ? When you claim that your beleifs are true, you also claim that all others are false, regardless of whether you mean to or not.

Those are challenging and offensive claims to make, JUST as challenging and offensive as my own. Do not push this further, you are showing a lack of knowledge that was unexpected in you.

Neither of us can claim our beleif is FACT or TRUTH, because neither of us have PROOF....we both have evidense yes, but our evidense contradicts each other's, and the only way to surely know who is correct, is by finding some kind of CONCLUSIVE and undeniable evidense to confirm the truth.

That may never happen...

I thought this was appropriate:

"What is important is to keep learning, to enjoy challenge, and to tolerate ambiguity. In the end there are no certain answers."
- Martina Horner, President of Radcliffe College

I believe that a couple of elements of Christianity were derived, or borrowed in some fashion from other religions, whether it' s Zoroastrianism or any other religion.

The Sumerians which is older worshipped An as the primary god, equivalent to "heaven"-- indeed, the word "an" in Sumerian means "sky", and his consort Ki, meaning "earth". Collectively the Gods were known as Anunaki ("heaven and earth", reminiscent of the opening verse of Genesis - "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth"😉. An's closest cohorts were Enki in the south at the Abzu temple in Eridu, Enlil in the north at the Ekur temple of Nippur and Inana, the deification of Venus, the morning (eastern) and evening (western) star, Like Christian scripture at the Eanna temple (shared with An) at Uruk. The sun was Utu, was worshipped at Sippar, the moon was Nanna, worshipped at Ur and Nammu or Namma was one of the names of the Mother Goddess, probably considered to be the original matrix; there were hundreds of minor deities. The Sumerian gods (Sumerian dingir, plural dingir-dingir or dingir-a-ne-ne) thus had associations with different cities, and their religious importance often waxed and waned with the political power of the associated cities. The gods were said to have created human beings from clay for the purpose of serving them like in Genesis. The gods often expressed their anger and frustration through earthquakes and storms: the gist of Sumerian religion was that humanity was at the mercy of the gods.

The highest authority was the triad of gods: the sky god Anu, the storm god Enlil, and the water god Ea, or Enki. Later a second triad arose: the moon god Sin, the sun god Shamash, and the goddess Ishtar (sometimes replaced by the weather god Hadad). As Babylon rose to supremacy in the 2d millennium B.C., the local god Marduk became important; a thousand years later Ashur of Assyria took his place. Thus many deities were determined by political conquest as well as by interchange.
While originally the functions of priesthood were borne by the city rulers, in later times priests became a separate group and were assigned special and significant duties: some pacified the gods with hymns and liturgy; others were trained in divination and astrology (special functions in Middle Eastern religion that indirectly contributed to the growth of science); others, perhaps the most important, were concerned with protecting people from demons, who were considered actual creatures with distinct shapes and names and were to be repelled by magic, daily recitations, and exorcism.

Originally posted by Regret
The term impetus as I used it refers to the post that started this thread, there is only one post that began, or instigated, this thread.

You are dodging my point....neither of us have proof for our assertions in this debate. Only evidense.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You are dodging my point....neither of us have proof for our assertions in this debate. Only evidense.

Originally posted by Regret
I am not dodging it. I wholly agree. Given this, a stance as to which religion influenced which is not provable, neither is the stance as to which came first. My evidence/proof is my religious text combined with lack of evidence to refute it's claims as to which came first, so for me, I will make the assumption that the Hebrew religion predates Zoroastrianism until evidence refutes this belief.

Which is your right, but likewise, by the same logic, I can easily assume that Zoroastrianism predates Judaism, and use that as evidense for my beleif...

But I won't....I don't like just making assumptions, I would rather know for certain before claiming such a thing...or atleast have enough concrete reason to beleive, rather than just holding onto a belief to fit my bias.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Which is your right, but likewise, by the same logic, I can easily assume that Zoroastrianism predates Judaism, and use that as evidense for my beleif...

But I won't....I don't like just making assumptions, I would rather know for certain before claiming such a thing...or atleast have enough concrete reason to beleive, rather than just holding onto a belief to fit my bias.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Zoroastrianism...a religion that came before Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.

Derived in Persia from possible Greek influences. This is considered the FIRST actual monotheistic religion.

Zoroastrianism has its own SUPREME BEING (GOD) and its own Devil (SATAN)

Zorastrianism also has its own "Armaggeddon" (Apocalypse) and its OWN SAVIOR (like our Jesus)

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam came much later. Many theologists already agree that the THREE MAJOR RELIGIONS all took influence and thier ideas from Zoroastrianism.

I CHALLENGE anyone who is Christian, Muslim, or Jewish to GOOGLE Zoroastrianism up, then tell me your thoughts.

I accept that the evidence does not state definitively one way or the other on the subject, and do not claim it does, but evidence that is present does suggest that the Hebrew religion is the older of the two. I have never read anything placing Zoroastrianism older than between 1500 and 1000 BCE, do you have any support for the idea that Zoroastrianism is older than this? The Bible is traced back to at least 1200 BC at the time of Moses, and thus the Hebrew religion is at least this old.

Originally posted by Regret
😆 You made the assumption when starting this thread: Everyone makes assumptions, it is a key aspect of the scientific method. I make my assumption that the Hebrew religion was first and then as new evidence presents itself this assumption is further supported or refuted. I do not state that such is fact, but my belief is that it is so.

Quite True my freind....However, after doing more research, I found that although there is much evidense to show that Zoroastrianism predated Judaism, or BEGAN at the same time Judaism spawned, there is ALSO Evidense to show that Judaism preceded it.

I stand almost corrected....

Originally posted by Regret
I accept that the evidence does not state definitively one way or the other on the subject, and do not claim it does, but evidence that is present does suggest that the Hebrew religion is the older of the two. I have never read anything placing Zoroastrianism older than between 1500 and 1000 BCE, do you have any support for the idea that Zoroastrianism is older than this? The Bible is traced back to at least 1200 BC at the time of Moses, and thus the Hebrew religion is at least this old.

I have found sources that claim the Hebrew Religion started 5,000 B.C. but I have also found evidense that Zoroastrianism originated that time.

Since all sources are subject to question, I find it pointless to present everything I found...however, if you'd still like to me cite everything, I'd be more than happy to.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I have found sources that claim the Hebrew Religion started 5,000 B.C. but I have also found evidense that Zoroastrianism originated that time.

Since all sources are subject to question, I find it pointless to present everything I found...however, if you'd still like to me cite everything, I'd be more than happy to.

I am not doubting that Zoroastrianism is old, about the same age as the Hebrew religion, but I do doubt any support for as old as 5000 BC. If you have some support for this age I wouldn't mind having that, I am not a scholar on the age of religions, even the Hebrew one, however all the evidence I have ever heard of dates oldest records of the two being between 1000 and 1500 BCE. The Hebrew religion claims to have begun ~5000 BCE, but I have never heard of evidence dating it this old.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I CHALLENGE anyone who is Christian, Muslim, or Jewish to GOOGLE Zoroastrianism up, then tell me your thoughts.

Um, its a cool ancient religion practiced by the Persians, I know Freddie Mercury practiced it and its where genies come from.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True.

But i beleive EVERY religion borrows something from a previous religion.

Believing this, i find it hard to beleive that any SINGLE religion is ABSOLUTELY true.

Really? Then what did the Ancient Egyptian religion borrow from? 😕