Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Except his was made for defense.
Precicely. While Dooku was skilled in actually fencing with a lightsaber, Obi-Wan's skills were more directed toward blocking incoming attacks from blasters (or other sabers). Obi-Wan was clearly able to block all of Vader's attacks, as he was never hit by his blade untill he chose to let it hit him (because he wanted to become one with the Force)
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Okay? The point was that blocking attacks doesn't mean you are doing so effortlessly, or can win simply because of a 2-3 minute fight.
There certainly didn't appear to be as much of an effort to fight Vader as he displayed when fighting Maul, or even when Dooku and Anakin were duelling in RotS, and none of Vader's blows actually landed, so that would count as, if not effortlessly, then certainly not with any difficulty. You are forgetting that this duel would be fought by Obi-Wan in his prime, and Vader way past his.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
That contradicts the Jedi way completely. He wants Luke to fall to the Darkside then? Didn't think so. Point invalid.
On the contrary. Obi-Wan used his rage and hatred to kill Maul. Had Obi-Wan's motives been entirely without manipulation, then he would have told Luke the truth about Vader immediately, not bend the truth to the point of snapping.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Hate leads to the Darkside, Obi-Wan was trying to do everything in his power for Luke not to be conflicted by emotions. That was probably the most ridiculous thing you've said yet.
As I said, Obi-Wan had experienced and used similar emotions himself to gain the advantage in a duel. Also, Obi-Wan told Luke that his father had been killed by Darth Vader for a specific reason. It certainly wasn't so Luke would think Vader was a great guy. Luke also said that he hated the Empire (Exact words were "I hate it." ) Obi-Wan was (for whatever reason) clearly manipulating Luke.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Still you're implying that Obi-Wan wants Luke to give into his emotions - Darkside ones at that? Simply all I can say is "no".
Obi-Wan's actions speak for themselves. He lied to Luke and manipulated him for no reason. He could have told him the truth about what had happened and how Anakin had killed Padme, that would just as easily got Luke 'on his side', but he didn't, instead, he lied to him. Like he lied to him when he said "Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough..." Anakin made no such statement at all.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Really? "Had he wanted to do so, he could probably have continued indefinitely, but I doubt Vader's artificial respirators could cope with extendeded bouts of physical exertion." - that is implying Obi-Wan could've made the fight last, and that Vader due to the "extended amounts of physical exertion" would've lost. Maybe not directly, but indirectly at least.
Because the logical conclusion is that Obi-Wan would have continued blocking until Vader made a mistake. Don't forget, that although Obi-Wan was passed his prime, he still had all his limbs and wasn't confined in a mobile iron lung.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
does Grevious have trouble?
Yes. In Clone Wars, Grievous was able to take on five Jedi while using only two lightsabers. He only used his secondary arms at the end for the element of surprize. In RotS, Grievous had to use four lightsabers in order to take on a single Jedi. The damage that Master Windu inflicted on him with his Force choke clearly affected his combat abilities as well as his breathing.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Did Vader have trouble tooling Jedi?
And where did Vader do that? On screen, or in a comic written by some fanboy with his pen in one hand and his wang in the other? The only Jedi Vader fought onscreen in his armour, was Luke, who, in all honesty, on screen, is hardly the most gifted of Jedi (regardless of what the EU makes him out to be)
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
And this is written in black and white somewhere? The only thing we have to go on is the novelization about overcoming who, and nothing in the movie contradicts it. For all you know he decided to do such, and realized it when he saw Luke.
And once again, the novelization is not a more accurate version of the story than the movie, so what the novel says is irrelevent. As I said above, Obi-Wan's 'plan' was most likely formulated on the spur of the moment, but, given that he had already manipulated Luke and lied to him, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he used his death as a further manipulation. Take a look at Luke's face when Obi-Wan is struck down and he starts shooting the Storm Troopers: What emotion do you see there? Looks like hate to me...
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Shown where?
By his actions in the movie.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
As I've said, it contradicts nothing.
It might not contradict, but the novel is still not a more accurate telling of the story than the movie. The movie is the more 'valid' telling.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
No, he tripped him.
Whatever. The point was not who could beat each other up better, but who had the superior fencing skills. The fact that Obi-Wan won, shows that his skills were superior to Anakin's, as does the fact that Anakin was not able to overcome Obi-Wan's defence (even while in his prime)
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
tell me what you mean by "breaking through his defenses"?
Making a contact with his blade.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
almost choked him out
With a prosthetic limb that could probably apply more strength than an organic limb.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Yeah, no doubt about that - nonetheless he shows us that he's still agile.
But still not as agile as he was. The point being that Vader is not as powerfull as he used to be (regardless of what a novelization might say, because the movies still show otherwise) Obi-Wan would have been just as agile as he was in RotS. He would have the advantage of both mobility and more effective saber technique.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Okay, so nothing in the movie contradicts the fact that he either:a) could've overcame Vader.
or
b) couldn't have overcame Vader.
When viewed as a solo movie, that is correct. It is not however, a stand alone movie, and must be viewed in context with the others, which show that Obi-Wan's area of expertise in using a lightsaber is blocking attacks. Vader is nowhere near as agile in his armor as he was in his 20s. His saber technique is one of attempting to overpower an opponent through sheer strength, there is no finesse or intricate blade manipulation which could penetrate Obi-Wan's defences (as Count Dooku's did)
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Either way, the novel does give insights into this - and it seems the insights are in favor of what I'm arguing.
Just because the novelization supports your argument, it does not mean that the movie does. Once more, the movie is the 100% accurate definitive version of the story. The novelization is is not considered as definitive as the movie.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Well, considering the novel's statement doesn't contradict anything. And, yes it was ghostwritten by Foster, but when you do ghostwrite something, you need consent. Obviously Lucas hired the guy, with approval to put slap his name on it.
To be brutally honest, Lucas does not care what authors write, because he considers nothing but his movies as accurate. The novelization of RotJ shows Anakin remembering when he was burned, and the filmed version of that event (filmed way after the novel was written) showed a signifigantly different form of immolation. Lucas could just as easily filmed Anakin actually going into the lava and hauling himself out, but he did not, which shows his blatant disregard for novelization or anything he does not personally do. (For the record, I think Lucas is an abysmal writer and a talentless director, but when it comes to what is and is not correct in the Star Wars universe, his word is what counts.)
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
You realize how much we're arguing in circles right?
That's not my fault. Throughout you have clearly forgotten that this fight is not between Obi-Wan and Vader as they were in RotS or Obi-Wan and Vader as they were in ANH, but Obi-Wan (in his prime) as he was in RotS, and Vader (considerably passed his) as he was in ESB. In ESB and RotJ, Vader still does not demonstrate any incredible fencing skills, given the fact that he has spent over 30 years using a lightsaber, and Luke had spent a few months practicing against remotes, so his skills are hardly the standard of a Jedi before the fall of the Order, so he should hardly have posed much of a challenge to someone of Vader's experience. Infact, Zet Jukassa demonstrated better saber technique in a few seconds, than Luke ever did any time he had a saber...