Originally posted by Escape81
As for the world-freezing, Nai, I think Sidious froze Coruscant when they buried the Super-Star Destroyer Luskyana (sp?)
Freezing the planet would not be necessary for the Empire. Very few people go down into the place where it was buried and I believe that it was constructed down there, was it not? Freezing the entire populace of the capital of the galaxy would cause Sidious plenty of problems on it's own.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Freezing the planet would not be necessary for the Empire. Very few people go down into the place where it was buried and I believe that it was constructed down there, was it not? Freezing the entire populace of the capital of the galaxy would cause Sidious plenty of problems on it's own.
Yup, and it's also possible that the Empire just killed off what witnesses there were left, or Palpatine erased their minds. I was simply telling Nai to what I think that Lightsnake referred to.
By the way, Glentract, I answered you a few pages ago.
Originally posted by Escape81
First and foremost, Nai, are you secretly George Lucas? I don't think you are. So, you don't have any authority to tell me what a character is thinking. You have assumptions and nothing more.
No. I'm not secretly George Lucas but I tend to keep in mind what the man says and what is mentioned and seen in the movies.
When Lucas descripes Grievous at the beginning of the ROTS commentary ("cunning almost cowardly villain" and "guy behind the scenes"😉 he mentions that this character is almost like Sidious himself. And it's pretty obvious that Sidious prefers manipulation or "acting behind the scenes" over direct confrontation.
And now have a look at the movie. When Anakin tells Sidious that he will hand him over to the Council, Sidious replies with "Of course you should. But you're not sure of their intentions, are you?" He doesn't want Anakin to report to the Council, at least not immediatly - he wants him to investigate the Jedi's intentions. And instead of doing so and "finding out" (like he told Sidious he would) he directly marches to Mace Windu and informs him that Sidious is the Sith Lord.
And now, when the Jedi arrive at his office. What does he say ? "It's treason, then." Treason ?
The only person in a position to "betray" him was Anakin. And Anakin did so by not investigating the Jedi's intentions (as Sidious suggested) but immediatly walk into the temple and reveal Sidious true identity to Mace. Sidious is obviously surprised when they enter his office and ignite their lightsabers.
Hey, Nai. Go back and re-read my post. I never said that he told Anakin to come back to the office. I said that that was most likely his intent. Notice how I say "most likely". I don't presume to be able to read fictional characters minds.Secondly, don't tell me why Sidious did this. You, again, are arrogant to presume that you can tell me what he was thinking. You're not Lucas, my friend.
Excuse me but the "most likely" is only your view of the things if you want to argue like that. Anakin hears Sidious voice, yes - he also hears Padme with more words never spoken before. Did Padme want him to stay out of Sidious office now ? Or can it be that he only imagined the words himself - or that they were cut out of other scenes and then put back into that scene ?
Lucas comment on the scene is that he just wanted to remind the audience of Anakin's motivation (to save Padme) - don't you think he would have said a line about Sidious trying to get him back to his office if that was the case ?
Lmao. Palpatine's goal was to make Anakin think that the Jedi were traitors, attacking him. Isn't it amazing that, when Anakin walks in, he sees big bad Mace Windu towering over a helpless-looking Palpatine? That would go a long way to further Anakin's belief that the Jedi are traitors.
No. That won't fit - because Mace tells Sidious that he is arrested before Sidious starts with his lightning. Then after the first lightning wave Mace tries to explain to Anakin why he has to kill Sidious there. And I think Anakin understood that because when he cuts Mace's hand off he doesn't say something about that this is wrong or going against the Jedi code - he says "I need him alive". And then he immediatly regrets his action ("What have I done ?"😉.
So even at this point Sidious didn't convince him that he was doing the right thing. And he realized himself that he didn't do the right thing but acted because of egoistical motives.
Hate to tell ya, but as Lightsnake is pointing out, there's a few where Palpatine could've killed Mace. Your point?
Hate to tell ya, but contrary to me (almost 8 years of Kenjutsu training) Lightsnake doesn't have any idea about swordfighting. There wasn't a situation where Sidious could have killed Mace. The situation closest to something like that is at the beginning of their duel when Sidious has his lightsaber pointed at Mace. The point is: We see him trying to stab Mace from this starting position and this ends with Mace and him locking their sabers.
And then you see Mace forcing him backwards the entire time and finally outduelling him. The point is that Sidious tried to gain an advantage in the situation I descriped while Mace didn't do so when Sidious made mistakes. Hell...in one situation he even waits with his blade ready to strike over his head until Sidious has his saber back in an defensive position. What kind of duellist in desperate need to defeat his opponent would do something like that ?
Yup, but you can leave yourself open to such a move.
No. You can leave yourself open in general and drop your defence but then it's the choice of your opponent what he does. Mace could have literally disarmed him (like Anakin did to Dooku), cut his legs off and all sorts of things like that. Would you risk something like that especially when....
I never said that he didn't want to kill Mace.
...you want to kill your opponent anyway ? And please. You call this
As for why, perhaps he wanted to show off the powers of the Dark Side?
a reason ? Anakin already did witness Dark Side usage in AotC when confronting Dooku. And he wasn't even interested in this particular sort of power since his entire motivation is to save Padme and not to destroy Jedi. And nobody with a functioning brain would risk his live just to show off some power which nobody is interested in - and especially not to kill the opponent he fought before "dropping" the fight.
Or, even more logical, perhaps he wanted to put Mace in a position where Mace would then try to kill him, thus forcing Anakin to act?
This is more logical. But still...Mace wanted to kill Sidious after this because he "controls the courts and the senate" and not because he's too powerful to be imprisoned. Not to mention that Sidious couldn't have been sure that Mace would try something like that. I mean...Mace didn't develop the intention to kill Sidious after having seen Sidious killing 3 powerful Jedi just in front of his eyes and duelling the Sith Lord. So obviously it wasn't this use of the Dark Side that made Mace want to kill Sidious - hence it was useless.
And even then Sidious couldn't have been sure that Anakin would have acted like he wanted him to. So the more useful thing to do would have been to submit defeat, have Mace arrest him and then influence Anakin to free him (by stabbing Mace or something like that). Sidious simply isn't the kind of guy that would gamble with his own life - and you have to assume that he does as a basis for that theory.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So? Those are the movies. In the EU, Yoda knew those abilities.
He still didn't use said abilities against his worst enemy in ROTS. Of course he most likely knew them but he limits himself by not using them.
That's great. I'll take Godlike power over fightening power any day.
You simply refuse to understand the concept. Would you say that the ability to kill all life on a planet filled with thousands of force users is "godlike" ? Would you say that the ability (even through technology) to wipe an entire sun-system from existance is "godlike" ?
I would. And those statements are given to descripe a Sidious that could ravage the fabric of space of time. Of course this is "godlike". But would you call Sidious as he is displayed in ROTS "godlike" when all he does is use some force lightning and toss some pods around ? I won't. And it's this Sidious we're talking about. Not the one who had additional 20 years until ROTJ happened and not the one who had additional ten years and even said he became "more powerful" since his last meeting with Luke (in ROTJ).
And according to Sidious, it was personally done. The best source of information? Perhaps not. Anything contradicting him there?
Sidious is known to lie about his personal abilities, like when he tells Luke in DE that he has tied several times before. Obviously a lie.
Speculation? And perhaps he froze them simply so they couldn't interfere. And he froze them to get the Lusankya hidden, what he did after is the part up for speculation.
Yes. I totally see normal citizens interfering in military actions of the Galactic Empire. As if the Imperials would care about it. And even if he did freeze the planet at this point - that doesn't proof that he could have done it in the time of ROTS since it happened basically in the OT time period - 2 decades later.
Kun also screwed up: He managed that part, but he preserved his spirit within the walls of the temple, trapping himself.
And the reason was: Possibly thousands of Jedi attacking him through the force ?
The sentinels were living creatures, created by and imbued with the power of the DS via alchemy.
The DS Sourcebooks says they were clones of the Dark Side adepts altered with dark side powers and alchemical threatment. So Sidious didn't create them "out of nothing" but used clones.
Rofl! Omg! Wow! Stop hurling one word out. And Dooku also used a unique weapon and style, point? And Sidious was stated to have mastered every form, I've posted the passage before. All the forms of lightsaber, esoteric disciplines of Tera Kasi, etc? The elegant form of Makashi is simply weak against the ferocity and the strikes of Form V. Oh, and according to the novelization, they were toying with Dooku at that point in time, nothing contradicting it? Hm.
You really want to compare a curved lightsaber to a short hilted double bladed lightsaber used with one hand ? Stop the joking.
And they were "toying" with Dooku. Have a look at the movie. Anakin is wielding his saber with both hands and doing wide swings - obviously Djem So. Obi-Wan moves exactly like he later does in his duel with Anakin. So where is the "toying" there or the "use of weaker forms" ? Nowhere.
Except it is and no Jedi's going to spend time marvelling at Kun's blade. That it's one handed doesn't make it any less a double bladed lightsaber and by Yoda and Sidious's time? Archaic.
Come on Lightsnake. The difference between a normal lightsaber with two blades and Maul's weapon is so obvious that even you should see it. And if you want to label Kun's weapon "archaic" Yoda's and Sidious' weapons are even more archaic because Kun's weapon was a further development of the normal lightsaber design.
And even Maul's weapon was totally uncommon to the PT era Jedi same with his fighting style (form VII - with only three known practicioneers in the PT). Now Kun uses a even less common weapon (unique design) that nobody has seen for 4,000 years combined with a even less common fighting style (form II) - and you really think that the result of this would be an opponent easier to handle then Dooku or Maul ?
And it alters the entire scene, thanks. When Lucas is talking about what';s happening and not what was planned, get back to me. Even Pablo said that it was still inconclusive.
Captain Obvious to the rescue please. He says that everything happend as always and the only "addition" was Sidious faking weakness after having tried to destroy Mace. What do you want to argue here ?
They didn't, according to them it's the strain of the dark side. Quite frankly, there's nothing about the lightning scarring him and in the EU, there's a well of viewpoints, even AFTER the DVD came out, meaning all that info was approved by LFL knowing what the makers said.
Yes ? How many things were completed and released after the DVD came out ?
And Lucas added something, he changed it, it's ambiguous because of that. Overpowered Sidious was holding back. Tries to destroy Mace? He reacts angrily, then gets a new idea for Anakin. Sidious fakes weakness, everything works out, lightning doesn't rot your teeth, change your eyes and hair, doesn't affect anyone else that way, his clones look the same, the dark side energies were directly said as causing Sidious's appearance and we see him changing his face. And going a it further, the idea is that the force mask can be removed by lightning. Ambiguous comments that CAN be taken other ways compared to actual evidence that we can ascertain? Yeah.
The only thing he added was Sidious faking some weakness and losing his power when he said that anything else was done as always. Don't use that as a reason to argue everything else he said because he doesn't contradict it himself and doesn't give any statement about this change influencing what happened before. Sidious was beaten fair and square by Mace. End of story.
And lightning doesn't rot your teeth ? Somehow Luke suffered very painful side effects from Sidious lightning (I think that was stated in "Truce at Bakura" and he had some problems with his bones) so very intense lightning being redirected at you can very well cause such effects.
Considering Lucas had to approve the ideas personally or even contributed to what Stover wrote and the ideas of what else's been written on the subject, from Shadows of the Empire to Sithisis. So, yeah, it's totally ridiculous, and I can easily say, since Lucas is speaking past tense that things were changed. It's contradictory, idiotic and since the debate's still going on without any official word except it's ambiguous.
Oh stop this. Stovers work was released almost a YEAR before the DVD as all other sources dealing with the subject. Lucas was present when the commentary was spoken and he could have contradicted Knoll at this point or cut it out of the commentary. He didn't and so this idea is directly approved by Lucas - not by LFL or somebody else. Maybe he changed his mind on the subject (as he always does) or this was simply part of Stover's "personal interpretation" of the things happening.
Ok, why don't we look at the comic again? One of his hands is to the side, the other's holding a scepter. His hands are not at his throat and he's talking. And when were these guys talking when choked by Vader? Needa? Motti? And maybe Odan's having problems speaking because he's, you know, dying. His hands aren't near his throat either, just look at the image, one's holding the scepter, one's to the side with two fingers out of view.
Where is his right hand ? He's trying to get his clothes away from his throat with the two fingers we "don't see". Not that this even matters because Kun has just killed a 1,000 year old Jedi Master with a single force attack. Seen anybody else doing something like that ?
Kun has...one quote describing him as a master swordsman. Him and thousands of others. That alone is not enough to place him above the levels of Mace and Yoda. On the level? Perhaps. Above them?
Oh...thousands of others ? Where ? In terms of combat he's the most skilled Padawan Vodo ever had (in 600 years), Vodo himself isn't able to defeat him, Ood isn't able to do so, Ulic can't and he doesn't even need his lightsaber to kill Odan. And even when it's stated that he used form II we see him using form IV (Djem So) and Jar'Kai (two lightsabers) as well.
So he is simply better then all other people of his own era including several century and millenia old Jedi Masters. So he's pretty much in Yoda's and Mace's league in sheer duelling capacity which would clearly enable him to take Yoda and Sidious in sheer lightsaber confrontation. I once argued that Yoda might overcome him because of his ability to dodge attacks - but Sidious in his ROTS state ? No.
You can also think about the fact that Gantoris in some weaks of tutalage under Kun developed the abilty to surprise Luke in a combat situation and give him some trouble - the Luke that already defeated Sidious at this point. I guess Kun himself would be a more dangerous opponent compared to that.
Kun was facing a weaker creature...with a sith amulet...Kun's complete training.
Kun was facing a creature which power compared to the Leviathans is unknown at best when it certainly looks larger. And what do you want - so Kun surpasses Luke's students because he has his amulets and the Dark Side but those two things wouldn't help him to duel ROTS Yoda or ROTS Sidious ?
And Kun didn't use any of his supposedly uber abilities gainst his worst enemies, your point? And ok, then Kun would be too arrogant to use his force abilities and thus get destroyed by Yoda, this cuts two ways.
Gee, did she just snap her fingers and obliterate all life? Did you actually see it happen or were there other factors involved? Oh, and Palpatine was capable of those feats, too...and still described as godlike just in his own power. Oh, and by ROTS he was described as the darkness itself and the Lord of all Sith, and the most powerful Jedi who ever lived realized fighting him wouldn't defeat him.
And there's nothing contradicting them, so your assumption of 'maybe he was lying', when sidious clearly took great pride in those victories and even showcased their sabers says a lot. And there's nothing canon contradicitng this assertion.
And there's anything contradicting that? Palpatine had been summoning up the spirits of the Sith long before ROTS and mastering the Sith disciplines.
actually the reason was him making a mistake and preserving his spirit in the walls according to the JA trilogy.
Well, the novelization makes it clear and unless Anakin and Obi-wan said "We were fighting seriously the entire time" there's nothing to contradict it. And a double bladed saber's a double bladed saber, no matter the size or shape of the hilt.
Palpatine's electrum saber was archaic? Yoda's was? As opposed to the sabers of the TOTJ era, just look a them, contrast and compare. And we've seen other Jedi in the PT era using double bladed sabers, so a moot point.
Hm, no, nothing about "Everything proceeded as we planned, just that I added something else." Nope, he talks in past tense. You want to be anal on details, so do I.
Visual guide perhaps?
Nope, Lucas says NOTHING about being beaten fair and square and Sidious not holding back.
And Luke has charred skin as a result of Sidious's blasts in TaB...and he was fried everywhere, lightning was coming out of his mouth! Yeah, lightning rots your teeth and turns your eyes Sith yellow...better warn Anakin, Luke, Maul, Quinlan Vos, Sora Bulq...
That's great! Lucas still approved all of Stover's work personally. And since he didn't say the other, why should I take ambiguous statements as canon when they can be taken any way in light of actual evidence within the EU?
Oh, come on, just look at ODan's hand...he has two fingers curled out of view and in case you missed it, he's TALKING. Nope, no choking going on. Please, why is he using his ring finger and his pinky, the most useless fingers when his hand is clearly far enough from his damned throat? And yeah, I've seen people kill thousand year old Jedi masters with one attack: Sedriss and Quinlan Vos.
Gee, Kun, Kyle Katarn, Jerec, Luke, Yoda, Palpatine, Mace, Depa, Kit, Agen, Saesee, Grievous, Mara, Jacen, Jaina, Kueller...the list of 'master' swordsmen goes on and on....and this somehow allows Kun to take Yoda, better than Mace one of the foremost and best duelists the Jedi ever produced? You're assuming as a pure duelist, Kun automatically is above anyone else and there's no proof of that at all.
And gee, Luke's student displaying knowledge and skills Luke never taught him surprising his teacher, THAT'S never happened before. Now, compare this to Luke actually fighting a dark lord and not his pupil and weilding the full abilities of the light side. Wow, Kun's ****ed.
Except the Wyrm is a Sithspawn, so's Leviathan...can the wyrm remove and trap peoples' souls? And we saw the leviathan up close...compare that to the shot of Kun on its head. And no, those two things wouldn't help Kun at all when he's fighting the expert of fighting the Dark Side...or the guy who also has both advantages with sith artifacts and weaponry, and training on how to use and circumvent them from the people who made them...and Sidious and Yoda are a bit anove the level of Padawans.
Originally posted by Escape81
He said in the ROTS commentary that Dooku was unaware of Palpatine's plan and that he (Dooku) "was just supposed to fight Anakin". And that, Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he is strong enough to become his next apprentice, by killing Count Dooku.
That's exactly correct. Dooku didn't know Sidious' true plan, which was for Anakin to kill him.
By strong enough to kill Count Dooku, it means strong enough to kill an unarmed prisoner. To the Sith, that is a sign of strength.
Originally posted by Escape81
Guess what? He kills Count Dooku.
Which leads him to the darkside. Because he is strong enough (or the Jedi would say weak enough) to kill an unarmed prisoner.
Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Glentract, you're one of the biggest fans of the Person A can outduel Person B, but that doesn't mean he can outduel Person C who could be crushed by Person B.
Perhaps I have a different way of taking the phrase then most. If Person A pwns person B. Then it does serve as evidence to Person A being better then Person C. It's not proof on it's own, but it is evidence to support thatr idea.
Originally posted by Escape81
Anakin has already been described as a superior fighter to Obi-Wan. But Obi-Wan is a master of a defensive lightsaber form, and he has spent over a decade sparring with and along side Anakin. He knows Anakin's form. To top it off, he is also more level-headed. That's how Anakin beat him.
I presume you mean, "that's how Obi-wan beat him".
Firstly, level-headedness is part of your lightsaber fighting ability. If Anakin lacks that, then perhaps he is not as good as commonly percieved.
Of course, for every second Obi-wan has sparred with Anakin, Anakin has sparred a second with Obi-wan and knows him equally well. That point is mute.
Obi-wan knows form five? Since when?
Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, you can read Palpatine's thoughts now? No, Glentract, you're making invalid assumptions. Palpatine intentionally revealed himself to Anakin, and Anakin told Palpatine that he'd tell the Council. Palpatine agreed and complimented Anakin on his wisdom. You don't know what the hell he was thinking, so don't assume.
I can infer though. Sidious is safe up in his chambers from a full scale Jedi assault. The tens of thousands of clones left over from the Battle of Coruscant would protect him very well.
Originally posted by Escape81
No, what it points to is that Palpatine really wasn't cowed at the thought of the Council being informed. Which then implies that Palpatine had a plan to handle the situation.
His plan, assuming he had any, would have been to get the Jedi to attempt an assassination on him. Then he could discredit the Jedi and lable them enemies of the Republic. And remember, with the clones he was still safe.
Originally posted by Escape81
Ehem. . . Palpatine didn't know for certain that Anakin would kill Count Dooku, either. Sorry. Master manipulator or no, there's a strong degree of risk that Palpatine took in ROTS. It was all or nothing. He risked his life on Invisible Hand, and Anakin's life, too. It just so happened that it worked out to his advantage.
You're assuming that Dooku was really trying to kill Anakin. He wasn't. Dooku wasn't in on Sidious' real plan, but he did by into the fake plan, which was for him to kill Obi-wan (which would have happened had the rest of the plan gone as it was supposed to) and then pretend to lose to Anakin and be taken in as a prisoner to the Republic, where Sidious would make him second hand ruler of the Republic.
Originally posted by Escape81
Go back and re-read, Glentract. The voice over that appeared in that scene was not a repeat of Palpatine's words in the office. The line was entirely different. And, Force-users can communicate with one another via the Force.It was sent when Anakin was sitting in the Council chambers, as Mace left to confront Palpatine.
Okay then. Lets assume that Sidious did infact send a message to Anakin. What does that prove? Well, one of two things.
One, that Sidious would pretend to lose and use that to turn Anakin to the Darkside.
Two, that Sidious knew he would need help against Mace, and after he convinced Anakin to help him he would turn him to the Darkside.
Originally posted by Escape81
This is the final time I am posting this. You may be a math-whiz, but I am not too shabby in my English skills. I hate to argue semantics, but overpowered simply means to subdue. Or to win by using superior force.
Which is exactly what Mace did, when by using superior force. Mace defeated Sidious. It is as simple as that. There is no solid evidence for Sidious losing the fight, as he could not have planned to have his lightsaber kicked out of his hands. That is totally impossible.
Originally posted by Escape81
Sorry to break the taboo of "Oh Em Gee Palpatine couldn't have planned that!!!11". Palpatine was a manipulator who managed to dupe Yoda and Mace for decades. I am pretty sure that he could do it in this fight.
He can't get his lightsaber knocked out of his hand as a planned thing. That is impossible. I believe that he asked Anakin to come to help him against Mace, as if he had arrived ten seconds earlier he would have been there in time for the fight.
No, telling Anakin he's unsure of their motivations is planting doubt in his mind, plain and simple.
Because he doesn't say 'it's treason then...?' in a mocking way for benefit of the audio recorder he'd activated? And the Jedi going after the man simply because he's a Sith is in direct violation of the Republic, as Sidious put it: His personal beliefs were his own business.
Padme had a chance to tell Anakin that stuff. Sidious did not.
Gee, and this isn't a BIT odd? Mace decides to kill Palp AFTER the lightning? At that point, and I practically quote: Anakin crosses the point of no return, his soul is broken and he submits to Palpatine.
Yes, yes, this is opposed to you whot hinks killing someone in seconds in a duel by using 'tactics' means he's not a good duelist. Yeah, mmhmm. Go on, fight someone and leaving yourself open, see what happens.
And wow, Sidious is backed up....to the window! Hmm and immediately he takes a more level stance with Mace...wow, what a coincidence for a world without 'em!
What do you think would HAPPEN if Mace brought Palpatine in? No proof, no evidence, NOTHING. The barrage of lightning convinced Mace he had to kill Sidious as he was too dangerous unarmed.
And Sidious knew EXACTLY what Anakin would do, same as he did in ROTJ. Don't say crap like 'oh, he wouldn't gamble with his life', when he does very frequently. He's allowed himself to be caught in firefights and assassination attempts, he let GRIEVOUS mandhandle him when Grievous has been known to be prone to bouts of homicidal rage and defying orders, he was shackled in a space duel where the danger of dying is VERY real, by his apprentice, he let Luke swing at him in ROTJ, KNOWING Anakin would block it.
100 percent certain? No, but he had a damn good idea. What was Palpatine's shatterpoint? Trust. Absolute trust of Anakin Skywalker. And he was absolutely correct
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That's exactly correct. Dooku didn't know Sidious' [b]true plan, which was for Anakin to kill him.By strong enough to kill Count Dooku, it means strong enough to kill an unarmed prisoner. To the Sith, that is a sign of strength.
Which leads him to the darkside. Because he is strong enough (or the Jedi would say weak enough) to kill an unarmed prisoner.
Perhaps I have a different way of taking the phrase then most. If Person A pwns person B. Then it does serve as evidence to Person A being better then Person C. It's not proof on it's own, but it is evidence to support thatr idea.
I presume you mean, "that's how Obi-wan beat him".
Firstly, level-headedness is part of your lightsaber fighting ability. If Anakin lacks that, then perhaps he is not as good as commonly percieved.
Of course, for every second Obi-wan has sparred with Anakin, Anakin has sparred a second with Obi-wan and knows him equally well. That point is mute.
Obi-wan knows form five? Since when?
I can infer though. Sidious is safe up in his chambers from a full scale Jedi assault. The tens of thousands of clones left over from the Battle of Coruscant would protect him very well.
His plan, assuming he had any, would have been to get the Jedi to attempt an assassination on him. Then he could discredit the Jedi and lable them enemies of the Republic. And remember, with the clones he was still safe.
You're assuming that Dooku was really trying to kill Anakin. He wasn't. Dooku wasn't in on Sidious' real plan, but he did by into the fake plan, which was for him to kill Obi-wan (which would have happened had the rest of the plan gone as it was supposed to) and then pretend to lose to Anakin and be taken in as a prisoner to the Republic, where Sidious would make him second hand ruler of the Republic.
Okay then. Lets assume that Sidious did infact send a message to Anakin. What does that prove? Well, one of two things.
One, that Sidious would pretend to lose and use that to turn Anakin to the Darkside.
Two, that Sidious knew he would need help against Mace, and after he convinced Anakin to help him he would turn him to the Darkside.
Which is exactly what Mace did, when by using superior force. Mace defeated Sidious. It is as simple as that. There is no solid evidence for Sidious losing the fight, as he could not have planned to have his lightsaber kicked out of his hands. That is totally impossible.
He can't get his lightsaber knocked out of his hand as a planned thing. That is impossible. I believe that he asked Anakin to come to help him against Mace, as if he had arrived ten seconds earlier he would have been there in time for the fight. [/B]
1. To the sith you have to be able to actually BEAT your opponent, which Ani did, since Sidious had Dooku fight to his best.
2. If Anakin lacked level headedness in one instance due to his WIFE?
3. Hm, according to the novelization, Sidious dismissed all his guards and took out his saber to await the Jedi. You miss the most important part of his plan: Acquire the vaunted Chosen One as his personal apprentice. Remember? "Soon I will have a new Apprentice. One younger and more powerful!"
Who was he talking about, Ferus Olin?
4. No solid evidence for Mace winning on his own, considering Sidious dropping his guard and speed. And one can plan to be disarmed by simply taking whatever your opponent throws. Either letting him knock the saber out of his hands, position it so Mace destroys his saber...or simply take the physical attack.
5. The thing is, until Lucas changed it, Anakin always did arrive in time for the fight where Sidious then lost, lightning'd and Anakin interferes. And Sidious loses SECONDS before Anakin comes in, and if Anakin came in, saw corpses around and Sidious fighting very well, he'd never have turned to the dark side, he needed to believe Sidious was in danger for that and mace was about to kill him when he was helpless
I presume you mean, "that's how Obi-wan beat him".
I'm presuming this as well 😛
Firstly, level-headedness is part of your lightsaber fighting ability. If Anakin lacks that, then perhaps he is not as good as commonly percieved.
Indeed, this is why I believe Kenobi to be a superior warrior to Anakin. However, Anakin "losing his head" was due to Padme turning against him. He really only loses his head when Padme is involved. This kind of emotional stress should be absent in this fight.
Of course, for every second Obi-wan has sparred with Anakin, Anakin has sparred a second with Obi-wan and knows him equally well. That point is mute.
The thing is: Obi-Wan was thinking clearly and using every card he had to his advantage. We've established Anakin was fighting like an idiot, so perhaps he wasn't using his knowledge of Obi-Wan to his advantage, whereas Obi-Wan was using his knowledge of Anakin to his advantage?
Obi-wan knows form five? Since when?
Since he was a Jedi youngling, I'm guessing. Jedi know all forms but only practice a few. It's very possible Anakin's emotional stress clouded his mind, disabling his prior knowlegde of Kenobi's saber style.
You're assuming that Dooku was really trying to kill Anakin. He wasn't. Dooku wasn't in on Sidious' real plan, but he did by into the fake plan, which was for him to kill Obi-wan (which would have happened had the rest of the plan gone as it was supposed to) and then pretend to lose to Anakin and be taken in as a prisoner to the Republic, where Sidious would make him second hand ruler of the Republic.
The RotS Novelization addresses the fact that it started out as a plan like that. Eventually, Dooku realizes he couldn't control the boy and goes all out. He tried hard and simply lost.
And why would Sidious want Anakin over Dooku if Dooku was so superior? Potential is great, sure, but the attack on the Jedi Temple and the Jedi Purge was going to happen in a few days. I'd want the best man now.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Kun didn't use any of his supposedly uber abilities gainst his worst enemies, your point? And ok, then Kun would be too arrogant to use his force abilities and thus get destroyed by Yoda, this cuts two ways.
Did you read the comics ? The things he is using in direct confrontation (force wise): Force push (against Sylvar), choke or another deadly attack (against Odan), his amulet (against the Sith beast), his other amulet (against the Chancelor), his amulet or an unknown Sith magic attack (against Aleema), lightning (against Gantoris) and another "unique" attack (descriped as "black serpents" or something like that as far as I remember) against Luke (assisting Kyp in the JA trilogy).
Gee, did she just snap her fingers and obliterate all life? Did you actually see it happen or were there other factors involved? Oh, and Palpatine was capable of those feats, too...and still described as godlike just in his own power. Oh, and by ROTS he was described as the darkness itself and the Lord of all Sith, and the most powerful Jedi who ever lived realized fighting him wouldn't defeat him.
Erm...talking about Nihilus - you just see a dark cloud moving over the planets surface killing all living things on it. Kreia in KotoR 2 just points her hand at the masters and they drop down dead. Nihilus with another gesture drained her entire force power away ("a technique against which there is no defence"😉. And she calls Ragnos "frightening". Sidious in ROTS was able to do the same ? Why didn't he use something like that against Yoda, hmm ?
And there's nothing contradicting them, so your assumption of 'maybe he was lying', when sidious clearly took great pride in those victories and even showcased their sabers says a lot. And there's nothing canon contradicitng this assertion.
Does it matter if he killed other Jedi then the 3 he killed in ROTS considering that he already faced the two most powerful individuals of the Jedi Order in direct confrontation with all other "top duellists" either being killed by Vader or being killed during the Clone Wars (Order 66) or hiding (Kenobi) ?
And there's anything contradicting that? Palpatine had been summoning up the spirits of the Sith long before ROTS and mastering the Sith disciplines.
Obviously he's more skilled in ROTJ then in ROTS and in DE he mentiones himself that his powers have increased since their last meeting with Luke (in ROTJ). So it matters very much if he displayed feats in ROTS, 2 decades later in ROTJ (or at the time period) or another decade later in DE.
actually the reason was him making a mistake and preserving his spirit in the walls according to the JA trilogy.
Sorry...but you can't argue the thousand of Jedi Knights attacking him during said ritual away - no matter how often you try it.
Well, the novelization makes it clear and unless Anakin and Obi-wan said "We were fighting seriously the entire time" there's nothing to contradict it. And a double bladed saber's a double bladed saber, no matter the size or shape of the hilt.
The novelization is the personal interpretation of the author - the film is the personal interpretation of Lucas. I thrust the film more then Stovers obviously flawed work which contradicts the actual movie often enough.
Palpatine's electrum saber was archaic? Yoda's was? As opposed to the sabers of the TOTJ era, just look a them, contrast and compare. And we've seen other Jedi in the PT era using double bladed sabers, so a moot point.
Again: You fail to see the point. Nobody ever used a weapon similar to the one Kun was using. And electrum lightsaber can be seen FotSE - only 1,000 years before Kun's lifetime.
Hm, no, nothing about "Everything proceeded as we planned, just that I added something else." Nope, he talks in past tense. You want to be anal on details, so do I.
Rofl. He tells you explicit what he did change and he didn't even have the opportunity to talk in present tense here because the other things were always planned like this and THEN he added another detail. Your point ?
Nope, Lucas says NOTHING about being beaten fair and square and Sidious not holding back.
No...the "overpowering" must be an ambigious statement - same with the "tries to destroy Mace". Of course. And he didn't say ANYTHING about holding back - but this must be the truth. I mean - I have Lucas own words to back up my ideas, you have nothing that supports yours but YOU must be right and I must be wrong. Think about that.
That's great! Lucas still approved all of Stover's work personally. And since he didn't say the other, why should I take ambiguous statements as canon when they can be taken any way in light of actual evidence within the EU?
Why should we call a clear statement "ambigious" ? And why should we thrust the "personal interpretation" of an author more then the actual film material + the interpretation of the movie makers, especially when said "interpretation of the author" obviously contradicts the movie in several occasions ? Wow...I don't know. You do ?
Oh, come on, just look at ODan's hand...he has two fingers curled out of view and in case you missed it, he's TALKING. Nope, no choking going on. Please, why is he using his ring finger and his pinky, the most useless fingers when his hand is clearly far enough from his damned throat? And yeah, I've seen people kill thousand year old Jedi masters with one attack: Sedriss and Quinlan Vos.
Hahaha. He has the fingers IN his clothes and he is pausing his speak several times. But of course - that doesn't matter. And Sedriss killed some thousand year old Jedi master ? Ah this is why it's said that Odd used the power of the planet to destroy Sedriss with him - because Sedriss killed him. Sure. And Quinlan Vos fought an opponent that stayed in suspended animation for some centuries (not a millenia). Great. Nadd must be the wtfuberpwner because he destroyed Sadow who was centuries old before the Great Hyperspace War and then spent 600 years in suspended animation - AND WAS A SITH. Wow....
Yet neither Sedriss nor Vos did destroy a 1,000 year old force user with a single handmovement.
Gee, Kun, Kyle Katarn, Jerec, Luke, Yoda, Palpatine, Mace, Depa, Kit, Agen, Saesee, Grievous, Mara, Jacen, Jaina, Kueller...the list of 'master' swordsmen goes on and on....and this somehow allows Kun to take Yoda, better than Mace one of the foremost and best duelists the Jedi ever produced? You're assuming as a pure duelist, Kun automatically is above anyone else and there's no proof of that at all.
Did you even read my postings ? I said he is on one level with them. And yes...please ignore that he destroyed everybody else in personal confrontation he ever faced. Please ignore his unique weapon, his mastery of at least 3 different styles (including the ultimate refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat) and the fact that even his 4,000 year old spirit was almost enough to wipe Luke and his students from existance.
And gee, Luke's student displaying knowledge and skills Luke never taught him surprising his teacher, THAT'S never happened before. Now, compare this to Luke actually fighting a dark lord and not his pupil and weilding the full abilities of the light side. Wow, Kun's ****ed.
I see Luke miserably failing against Kun and Kyp after he already fought Sidious. Hmm...didn't impress me too much when he get's floored by the ionized airparticles of a Sith Lord and an almost untrained Kyp Durron.
Except the Wyrm is a Sithspawn, so's Leviathan...can the wyrm remove and trap peoples' souls? And we saw the leviathan up close...compare that to the shot of Kun on its head. And no, those two things wouldn't help Kun at all when he's fighting the expert of fighting the Dark Side...or the guy who also has both advantages with sith artifacts and weaponry, and training on how to use and circumvent them from the people who made them...and Sidious and Yoda are a bit anove the level of Padawans.
The expert of fighting the Dark Side who Sidious nearly overcame with his lightning ? Impressive. The Dark Lord we never see using amulets - much less in ROTS times ? The same Dark Lord who isn't even able to properly control the energies he's channeling and therefore has his body ravaged by the dark side within some months and owns himself with his own force storm. That happening 30 years beyond ROTS after "increasing" his own powers.
That compared to the guy that - according to the omnicient narrator - has gained more knowledge than he would ever been able to use ? The guy able to outduel Jedi masters after some years (at max) of actual training ? The guy that could kill Jedi Masters older then Yoda with a handmovement ? The guy that simply withstood the "wall of light" attack being used against him ?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, telling Anakin he's unsure of their motivations is planting doubt in his mind, plain and simple.
And it doesn't work as we see Anakin immediatly running to tell Mace who Sidious really is.
Because he doesn't say 'it's treason then...?' in a mocking way for benefit of the audio recorder he'd activated? And the Jedi going after the man simply because he's a Sith is in direct violation of the Republic, as Sidious put it: His personal beliefs were his own business.
Oh....not again Stovers flawed work. He used an audio recorder ? Excuse me...the Jedi are igniting the lightsabers, then Mace tells Sidious that the Senate will judge him, Sidious replies with "I am the Senate"...Mace says "not yet" and then he ignites his own blade and jumps them with a "it's treason then". You would record THIS and then play it to the Senate ? Would have a pretty devastating effect in case you were Sidious.
And no. The Jedi have all rights to hunt down Sith (see Dooku) especially when they have evidence that said Sith caused a full scale war with millions of civilist victims.
Padme had a chance to tell Anakin that stuff. Sidious did not.
When he was IN the temple ?
Gee, and this isn't a BIT odd? Mace decides to kill Palp AFTER the lightning? At that point, and I practically quote: Anakin crosses the point of no return, his soul is broken and he submits to Palpatine.
And another Stover logic when the movie shows Anakin acting because of egoistical motivation and immediatly after this regretting his action and collapsing on the ground almost crying. Totally Dark Side the guy...
Yes, yes, this is opposed to you whot hinks killing someone in seconds in a duel by using 'tactics' means he's not a good duelist. Yeah, mmhmm. Go on, fight someone and leaving yourself open, see what happens.
As I said: You have no idea about swordfighting and that's it. If somebody attacks me with a sword with the intention to kill me and floors 3 of my friends just in front of my eyes I would simply kill him when he drops his defence. At least I won't hesitate and strike him down instead of waiting until he's back in a defensive stance when he made an mistake before.
And wow, Sidious is backed up....to the window! Hmm and immediately he takes a more level stance with Mace...wow, what a coincidence for a world without 'em!
And again: Your total lack of knowledge in terms of swordfighting. Did you miss the fact that Sidious is moving backwards the entire time (from the saberlock on), then even goes down on his knees (last resort action in a duel) and at the end loses his weapon ?
What do you think would HAPPEN if Mace brought Palpatine in? No proof, no evidence, NOTHING. The barrage of lightning convinced Mace he had to kill Sidious as he was too dangerous unarmed.
Yes. Especially when he had the guy with the greatest force potential ever known standing right next to him - who (Lucas own words) wanted Sidious to go on trial. Yes...what would have happend ? Do you think Sidious would have killed Anakin and Mace both at once when we saw Mace alone being a match for him ? No ? It was completely impossible to keep him as a prisoner because - uhh...I don't know.
And Sidious knew EXACTLY what Anakin would do, same as he did in ROTJ.
Yeah. He knew it - that's why he ended up in a reactor core in ROTJ, right ?
Don't say crap like 'oh, he wouldn't gamble with his life', when he does very frequently. He's allowed himself to be caught in firefights and assassination attempts, he let GRIEVOUS mandhandle him when Grievous has been known to be prone to bouts of homicidal rage and defying orders, he was shackled in a space duel where the danger of dying is VERY real, by his apprentice, he let Luke swing at him in ROTJ, KNOWING Anakin would block it.
Great. Oh...how much he feared Grievous - did you watch the CW Cartoons ? He could have destroyed Grievous rather easily - same with any assassin. And by ROTJ he already had his clones on Byss so he didn't have to care about losing his life because he could have returned immediatly.
100 percent certain? No, but he had a damn good idea. What was Palpatine's shatterpoint? Trust. Absolute trust of Anakin Skywalker. And he was absolutely correct
Whoopie. And another interpretation of Mr Stover. If Mace did see that Shatterpoint then why didn't he kill Anakin on sight once he was at it assuming that Sidious would be right in thrusting Anakin. By the way...thrusting Anakin...the same Anakin that immediatly ran to the Council to reveal Sidious' identity ? The same Anakin that often enough acted against the will of his master after he became Vader ? The same Anakin who killed him in ROTJ ? That Anakin ?
No. I'm not secretly George Lucas but I tend to keep in mind what the man says and what is mentioned and seen in the movies.
When Lucas descripes Grievous at the beginning of the ROTS commentary ("cunning almost cowardly villain" and "guy behind the scenes"😉 he mentions that this character is almost like Sidious himself. And it's pretty obvious that Sidious prefers manipulation or "acting behind the scenes" over direct confrontation.
M'kay, what's your point? Hell, even Grievous had direct confrontations throughout his career. Palpatine would rather be manipulating, but he will fight when he wants or has to.
And now have a look at the movie. When Anakin tells Sidious that he will hand him over to the Council, Sidious replies with "Of course you should. But you're not sure of their intentions, are you?" He doesn't want Anakin to report to the Council, at least not immediatly - he wants him to investigate the Jedi's intentions. And instead of doing so and "finding out" (like he told Sidious he would) he directly marches to Mace Windu and informs him that Sidious is the Sith Lord.
No, he wants him to doubt their intentions.
And now, when the Jedi arrive at his office. What does he say ? "It's treason, then." Treason ?
The only person in a position to "betray" him was Anakin. And Anakin did so by not investigating the Jedi's intentions (as Sidious suggested) but immediatly walk into the temple and reveal Sidious true identity to Mace. Sidious is obviously surprised when they enter his office and ignite their lightsabers.
They committed treason when they drew their weapons against the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. In terms of hierarchy and authority, Palpatine > the Jedi. He is the Republic's head of government. When they attempted to arrest him, he considered it treason.
Palpatine knew that Anakin would tell them, because Anakin flat-out said he would. He most likely feigned his surprise.
Excuse me but the "most likely" is only your view of the things if you want to argue like that. Anakin hears Sidious voice, yes - he also hears Padme with more words never spoken before. Did Padme want him to stay out of Sidious office now ? Or can it be that he only imagined the words himself - or that they were cut out of other scenes and then put back into that scene ?
Lucas comment on the scene is that he just wanted to remind the audience of Anakin's motivation (to save Padme) - don't you think he would have said a line about Sidious trying to get him back to his office if that was the case ?
Excuse me, but your arrogance is legendary around here. I have PMs saved of up various debators telling me how bad it gets. You are not an authority on Star Wars. You are not George Lucas. Therefore, your insight into a character's mind is based off of assumptions.
I say "most likely" because I, unlike you, am aware of the fact that my word is hardly law.
No. That won't fit - because Mace tells Sidious that he is arrested before Sidious starts with his lightning. Then after the first lightning wave Mace tries to explain to Anakin why he has to kill Sidious there. And I think Anakin understood that because when he cuts Mace's hand off he doesn't say something about that this is wrong or going against the Jedi code - he says "I need him alive". And then he immediatly regrets his action ("What have I done ?"😉.
So even at this point Sidious didn't convince him that he was doing the right thing. And he realized himself that he didn't do the right thing but acted because of egoistical motives.
Which only futhers my point. Palpatine wanted to put Mace in a position where he would attempt to execute him so Anakin would act, thus putting him further down the path of the Dark Side.
Hate to tell ya, but contrary to me (almost 8 years of Kenjutsu training) Lightsnake doesn't have any idea about swordfighting. There wasn't a situation where Sidious could have killed Mace. The situation closest to something like that is at the beginning of their duel when Sidious has his lightsaber pointed at Mace. The point is: We see him trying to stab Mace from this starting position and this ends with Mace and him locking their sabers.
And then you see Mace forcing him backwards the entire time and finally outduelling him. The point is that Sidious tried to gain an advantage in the situation I descriped while Mace didn't do so when Sidious made mistakes. Hell...in one situation he even waits with his blade ready to strike over his head until Sidious has his saber back in an defensive position. What kind of duellist in desperate need to defeat his opponent would do something like that ?
Lol. The biggest blatant situation was when after they entered the main office, Palpatine had his saber arm fully extended and aimed at Mace's chest. Mace had both arms extended out completely. Palpatine could've lunged forward and impaled him.
Secondly, Palpatine had Mace on the defensive for the majority of the duel, forcing him into the main office.
Thirdly, Palpatine > Mace in the Force. Explain to me, why he didn't he use his superior Force powers to gain further dominance of the fight? Especially considering how Palpatine upped the ante in his fight with Yoda, actively using the Force.
And even then Sidious couldn't have been sure that Anakin would have acted like he wanted him to. So the more useful thing to do would have been to submit defeat, have Mace arrest him and then influence Anakin to free him (by stabbing Mace or something like that). Sidious simply isn't the kind of guy that would gamble with his own life - and you have to assume that he does as a basis for that theory.
This is ridiculous. Do you even recall Invisible Hand?
Palpatine put himself at risk there, too. He engineered his entire abduction. Not Dooku, not Grievous. He willingly put his neck on the line for the chance that his greater goals would be accomplished. So don't give me that crap.
Palpatine is the kind've guy who will gamble with his own life.
The expert of fighting the Dark Side who Sidious nearly overcame with his lightning ? Impressive. The Dark Lord we never see using amulets - much less in ROTS times ? The same Dark Lord who isn't even able to properly control the energies he's channeling and therefore has his body ravaged by the dark side within some months and owns himself with his own force storm. That happening 30 years beyond ROTS after "increasing" his own powers.
Which is to further cement the statement of how powerful Sidious is.
Is it odd that Sidious is the only Sith Lord we know of, whose Dark Side energies are so powerful that they are literally killing him?
Glentract once told me that it was a sign of weakness.
Mm-hmm. The main villain of the Star Wars saga is the weakest of the Sith Lords? The Sith Lord who accomplished the most is the weakest? The Sith Lord (Plagueis aside) who came the closest to achieving immortality is the weakest? The one who architected the entire downfall of the Republic and the Jedi Order, the weakest? The one who has been described as the one born with the power to take the final step?
The same one who firmly states: "Flesh does not support this great power?"
You tell me about that.
Originally posted by Escape81
M'kay, what's your point? Hell, even Grievous had direct confrontations throughout his career. Palpatine would rather be manipulating, but he will fight when he wants or has to.
The point is that "fighting" or "confrontation" is not his primary choice when he has to deal with certain situations. That is the difference between him and people like, let's say, Kun.
No, he wants him to doubt their intentions.
For what reason ? He wanted a new apprentice and he basically received that goal by making Anakin think he needs him (to get access to the powers needed to save Padme). The "political" motivation was his own but Anakin wasn't affected much by that at least it seems so. I mean - he still argued with "following the Jedi code" and so on - didn't he. Doesn't look as if he was "doubting the Jedi's intentions" there.
They committed treason when they drew their weapons against the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. In terms of hierarchy and authority, Palpatine > the Jedi. He is the Republic's head of government. When they attempted to arrest him, he considered it treason.
No. It's stated that the Jedi are under the authority of the Senate or the equivalent of the justice department. Their main goal is to protect the republic or the democracy. Hence they can't commit treason against the Supreme Chancelor - only against the Senate or against the political system.
Palpatine knew that Anakin would tell them, because Anakin flat-out said he would. He most likely feigned his surprise.
He knew ? Sorry...first he wants Anakin to investigate their intentions. Then Anakin says to him that he will "find out" their true intentions which obviously would require more then running into the temple and telling Mace about Sidious true identity. Even if that would have only included some minutes of contemplation or meditation.
But no - minutes after Anakin left him he had 4 Jedi Masters standing in his office including the second most powerful guy of the Council. I don't think he really planned that or knew that they would come to his office that fast.
Excuse me, but your arrogance is legendary around here. I have PMs saved of up various debators telling me how bad it gets. You are not an authority on Star Wars. You are not George Lucas. Therefore, your insight into a character's mind is based off of assumptions.I say "most likely" because I, unlike you, am aware of the fact that my word is hardly law.
Oh...you really think that commiting some argumentum ad hominem would help you here or what ? I don't care what you or somebody else thinks about my arrogance. If you say "most likely" then it means that every other explanation is less likely then your idea. What is that ? No arrogance ?
Now look at the paragraph you quoted. Can you find my personal opinion there ? No ! Because I just handed you facts and asked some questions. Damn. Stating facts now and asking question now is arrogant. Hey...the Executor is bigger then a normal Stardestroyer. Wow...what an arrogant idiot I can be giving such comments. Hilarious...
And where did I say that I have inside into the characters heads ? Damn it. Nowhere ? Can that be ? So nice that you attack me for - uh - nothing.
Which only futhers my point. Palpatine wanted to put Mace in a position where he would attempt to execute him so Anakin would act, thus putting him further down the path of the Dark Side.
What the hell does this have to do with the topic or the fact that Mace did beat Sidious and Sidious couldn't destroy Mace with his force powers. Well ? Nothing of course. But thanks for handing me this completely useless stuff. See that was arrogant.
Lol. The biggest blatant situation was when after they entered the main office, Palpatine had his saber arm fully extended and aimed at Mace's chest. Mace had both arms extended out completely. Palpatine could've lunged forward and impaled him.
Yes. And it's great how Palpatine just lunged forward, Mace blocks him by pushing his saber aside and they end in a saber lock - isn't it ? So he could have killed Mace there because he tried to do exactly this and failed ?
Secondly, Palpatine had Mace on the defensive for the majority of the duel, forcing him into the main office.
The "majority" ? Sidious forces Mace backwards through the corridor and into the room for 17 seconds until the engage in the saber lock and then Mace controls the other 32 seconds of the fight we can see. He even goes so far and switches his weapon hand (he's moving the blade with his left hand when the window brakes) - I don't know how much more control somebody can show in a swordfight.
Thirdly, Palpatine > Mace in the Force. Explain to me, why he didn't he use his superior Force powers to gain further dominance of the fight? Especially considering how Palpatine upped the ante in his fight with Yoda, actively using the Force.
Ehehehe. Of course he's superior to Mace in the force but what should he have done ? Against Yoda he's always fighting out of superior positions and even then Yoda basically stalemates with him in all direct confrontations of their power (throwing the pod up, reflecting his lightning with his bare hands). So what should he have done against Windu ? Force TK wouldn't have worked and he tried it with lightning and failed (because Mace had his saber left).
Palpatine put himself at risk there, too. He engineered his entire abduction. Not Dooku, not Grievous. He willingly put his neck on the line for the chance that his greater goals would be accomplished. So don't give me that crap.Palpatine is the kind've guy who will gamble with his own life.
Lmao, Escape. Where was he gambling with his life, huh ? He had Dooku who wouldn't hurt him, Anakin and Obi-Wan who wouldn't hurt him, Grievous who wouldn't hurt him (according to Sidious own words in the CW cartoons). The only possible danger was the ship getting torn into pieces - yes, I guess the master of battle meditation can't do something against that.
You can't always argue with his superior force powers and manipulation abilities and then come up with "he's risking his life in a freaking space battle" when he's surrounded by all kind of people wanting to save his life or not wanting to hurt him.
Which is to further cement the statement of how powerful Sidious is.Is it odd that Sidious is the only Sith Lord we know of, whose Dark Side energies are so powerful that they are literally killing him?
Glentract once told me that it was a sign of weakness.
And Glentract is right. Amassing so much power that it ravages your mortal frame is plain and simply stupid. And since we see people wielding greater power (at least judging by the effects of their force use - like Nihilus or the NJO / post NJO versions of Luke) Glentract is absolute right. If he can't control his amount of power which is surely not the strongest ever seen in the SW universe - how great is he then ?
Mm-hmm. The main villain of the Star Wars saga is the weakest of the Sith Lords? The Sith Lord who accomplished the most is the weakest? The Sith Lord (Plagueis aside) who came the closest to achieving immortality is the weakest? The one who architected the entire downfall of the Republic and the Jedi Order, the weakest? The one who has been described as the one born with the power to take the final step?
Excuse me. But false statements much ? Nobody did say Sidious was the weakest Sith Lord - would be illogical anyway because we still have OT Vader. And in contrary to other Sith Lords I didn't see Sidious prolonging his life for centuries or millenia using his force powers only - there were quite some people coming closer to immortality then he did.
And wow...his political manipulation skills (leading to the end of the Republic and the Jedi) have exactly nothing to do with his fighting or force abilities. So why mentioning them ?
The same one who firmly states: "Flesh does not support this great power?"
You tell me about that.
I wonder how Luke did manage not to be ravaged by the amount of power he's wielding in the NJO series or the DN trilogy. Really...How did every damn Sith Lord figure out how it's possible to not look like a 90 year old men after posessing a brand new body for some years (months) and only Sidious wasn't able to do that ? Hmmm...
Oh, bullshit. Sidious is quite capable of controlling his own power, it just takes a toll on his body and he managed to counter that weakness. And before you even start on this 'he won't risk his own life' crap, Grievous has shown to disobey direct orders with insanely bloody results and he BADLY wanted Palpatine dead. And Sidious was also secure enough to let Anakin hold a saber to his throat AND let Luke take a swing at him, AND let Luke and Leia swing at him again in DE...and the Jedi swear their alleigance to the Republic, so they CAN commit treason.
And how did those other Sith Lords figure it out? Hm, different biology...or they were just plain not as powerful. How many others abosrbed power from Korriban I wonder?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, bullshit. Sidious is quite capable of controlling his own power, it just takes a toll on his body and he managed to counter that weakness.
So capable that he mentions himself how he's unable to control his force storm ? Nice.
And before you even start on this 'he won't risk his own life' crap, Grievous has shown to disobey direct orders with insanely bloody results and he BADLY wanted Palpatine dead.
How would the guy that was crushed by Obi-Wan in 30 seconds stand a chance to Sidious ? The second he would have tried to attack Sidious the result would have been a roasted Grievous. One lightning blast > robot body.
And Sidious was also secure enough to let Anakin hold a saber to his throat AND let Luke take a swing at him, AND let Luke and Leia swing at him again in DE...and the Jedi swear their alleigance to the Republic, so they CAN commit treason.
Why you are again talking about DE when we are talking about ROTS Sidious. Wow...he let Anakin hold a saber to his throat - no...the guy who can move "faster then the eye could see" gets threatened by the person who can't do it.
And how did those other Sith Lords figure it out? Hm, different biology...or they were just plain not as powerful. How many others abosrbed power from Korriban I wonder?
And now he absorbed the power from Korriban. Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Have you seen him killing thousands of force user with a single force attack ? No ? Nihilus > him. Have you seen him flooring 20 Jedi with a single force attack including NJO Luke ? No ? Sekot > him. Have you seen him "causing death of entire star systems" using his force powers ? Sadow > him. Could he keep his seperated head alive in a jar. No ? Simus > him.
Ok...those people had a different biology. I wonder how you're going to explain the Sith you mentioned yourself before. Hmm...Rivan ? A human living over 1,000 years with a considerable great amount of power ? Bane ? Plagueis who basically archieved immortality and wielded powers Sidious had not figured out in the time of ROTS ?
Meeh...