Exar Kun and DN Luke Vs Rots Sidious and ROts Yoda

Because, in all his arrogance - if there was an enemy he feared it would have been Yoda who wasn't on the planet - he still told Anakin to be aware of the Jedi's motivation before revealing his identity to them. So he basically told Anakin that he should think before doing anything else. It's not that he didn't care about having Council Members walking into his office and confronting them.

First and foremost, Nai, are you secretly George Lucas? I don't think you are. So, you don't have any authority to tell me what a character is thinking. You have assumptions and nothing more.

Excuse me. But he didn't tell Anakin to come back to his office and IF he had to do something like this he knew that the Jedi (respective Mace Windu) could destroy him.

Hey, Nai. Go back and re-read my post. I never said that he told Anakin to come back to the office. I said that that was most likely his intent. Notice how I say "most likely". I don't presume to be able to read fictional characters minds.

Secondly, don't tell me why Sidious did this. You, again, are arrogant to presume that you can tell me what he was thinking. You're not Lucas, my friend.

Just stop this speculation. I totally destroyed DarthSith19 in an argument about this topic.

Two things:

1) I'm not Darthsith19.
2) You're not destroying me. You're the one who's speculating. 😉

a) Sidious had no reason to fake the saber fight because Anakin wasn't able to see it. If he wanted to fake that he would have controlled this and then threw his saber away shortly before Anakin was able to see them. He didn't do it because he was losing the swordfight.

Lmao. Palpatine's goal was to make Anakin think that the Jedi were traitors, attacking him. Isn't it amazing that, when Anakin walks in, he sees big bad Mace Windu towering over a helpless-looking Palpatine? That would go a long way to further Anakin's belief that the Jedi are traitors.

Point moot. It only supports my belief.

b) There are three situations where Mace could easily have killed Sidious. One time Sidious turns around and has his sword down on his side while Mace is ready to strike him down - and Mace waits until Sidious has his saber back up. Then the situation where Sidious goes down on his knees (a little backward slash and his head would have been gone) and of course the situation where Mace had him disarmed.

Hate to tell ya, but as Lightsnake is pointing out, there's a few where Palpatine could've killed Mace. Your point?

c) You can't fake getting your saber kicked out of you hand. That is impossible. Sorry.

Yup, but you can leave yourself open to such a move.

d) He wanted to kill Mace with his first wave of lightning. This is directly stated by Lucas and he even says "No. You have lost. Die !" when unleashing this wave. So why would he fake the lightsaber duel just to try and destroy Mace using the force ? It's senseless. And this makes the entire "he faked it" idea senseless. Period.

I never said that he didn't want to kill Mace.

As for why, perhaps he wanted to show off the powers of the Dark Side?

Or, even more logical, perhaps he wanted to put Mace in a position where Mace would then try to kill him, thus forcing Anakin to act?

There ya go. No period . 😛

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So...you really don't know Mace or the Jediw ay much...because killing helpless prisoners IS TEH BADASS!

And because you didn't see it? Doesn't mean it didn't happen, that simple

Anakin did it. He killed Dooku. I dont see why Mace would not kill Palpatine, he is just as dangerous.

Yeah and Palp egged him on...Mace is much older and a far better Jedi than Anakin.

Ok whats your point? Does that mean that Mace would not kill a dangerous opponent if he had the chance? Mace is a mix of both light and dark. He did not kill Quinlan in a duel, but against the dark lord of the sith. Thats a different story. Especially after seeing 3 of his companions go down in seconds.

Mace expressed intent to arrest him twice. Especially when he thought he had Palps beat. Going even further, he's a lightside Jedi with an inner darkness which he channels through Vaapad. That's it

Fearing that Sidious was too powerful to take prisoner -- the Dark Lord still had control of the Senate and courts -- Windu moved to deliver a deathblow.

That quote is stright from the star wars databank. It clearly shows mace was ready to kill him if it was not for anakin's interference.

....after the lightning

Yeah.... I mean, if Mace goal was to kill him then he obviousley would have done so instead of wasting time on saying "you are under arrest, my lord"...

Mace came in the duel wanting to arrest Sidious.

When Mace fought Sidious, he did his best to outduel him. Arresting him was his overall goal, but he'd kill him if necessary.

When Mace was towering over Sidious, he still wanted to arrest Sidious.

But, when Sidious used Force Lightning on Mace, Mace then decided that Sidious would be too powerful to be kept alive.

There ya go.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Easy? No. However, Kun would lose, even if not with a saber, than with the force. And you still haven't answered the question: How much stronger are the Sith than the Jedi if Exar can even take on Yoda in a level close to even? Assuming Exar's not stronger than the Ancients, even though KJA seems to believe he is-have I mentioned KJA's a terrible author?

Wow. How exactly would Sidious or Yoda in their ROTS versions beat Kun force wise, huh ? Yoda only uses force push and throws stuff around (one pod). Sidious also throws stuff around and has his force lightning on top of that.
How would they use this to defeat Kun when Kun could unleash various Sith magic attacks against them and has his amulet blasts which are several times bigger then Yoda himself ? I'd really like to see Yoda blocking a beam of energy that does have a greater size then his entire body with his bare hands.
On the other hand force TK can be blocked and countered and force lightning can be deflected with a lightsaber.

Yet saberwise - I'd like to see Sidious or Yoda dealing with an opponent who mastered the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" and using a unique weapon while being equipped with force powers and tools Dooku can only dream off.

His name is Beldorian and he'd been on Nam Chorios...hundreds of years, according to the NEC, considering he set himself up as a petty dictator there for quite some time. Hell, it;'s even implied he was studying the darkside when he was a Jedi and even hinted he personally knew Thon.

You are again arguing against the facts. He arrived at the planet during or after the purge and before that he was a Jedi - so no centuries to learn about the Dark Side.

You mean in between the time Karkko steadily increased his power and fed on the energies of the other Anzati?

No. I mean the time AFTER his power gain when he was in suspended animation for centuries - again no centuries to learn about the Dark Side. If you want to tell me something different, Sadow who spent 600 years in suspended animation must be goddamn powerful.

He was killed by a Jedi thanks to betrayal from his side, Rivan was. Good enough for me, considering he was over a millenia old. And there's also Kaox Krul and the Dark Underlord.

Wow. We don't know how Rivan was killed, Kaox Krul wasn't clearly centuries old and the same is true for the Dark Underlord. You are just throwing unknowns in here and hope somebody will buy them.

Oh, as opposed to Sidious being the manifestation of the darkside, darkness beyond darkness, a black hole of the force, possessing terrifying and incredible powers, being described as a 'titan,', a 'divinity,', 'godlike', supremely powerful, etc? Yeah, mmhmm.

Oh yes...can you please stop using Dooku's comments on his ability to hide his presence in the force as indication of his actual power ? It's stupid. And all other comments I have read about basically every Sith Lord.

Most Sith Lords don't get branded like Kun and given some place in a grand Sithy scheme of things. Kun's failure is even more miserable considering he ruled for what, three years? Did he establish an empire like Pall's group? Did he wipe out the Jedi Order like Sidious? Did he take most of the galaxy like Ruin's order?

Wow. Want to start feat wars now ? How many 1,000 year old Jedi did Sidious kill with a single force attack ? None ? How many 600 year old Jedi did he defeat in a lightsaber fight ? None ? How many Jedi did he kill personally ? How many planets he conquered personally ? In how many battles did he participate ? See...if you want to use feat wars, Exar Kun smashes Sidious.

The wall of light was temporary! Saying 'Kun had to restore his power?' Unfounded, unproven, totally ludicrous assertion considering no Jedi knew how to undo the technique!

Of course. In one moment he's bleeding and holded by chains with only two normal guards at his side - and in the next moment he can suddenly "occupy" 3 Jedi and has his force powers restored ?

Kun froze the senate? Wonderful, Palpatine froze a world.

When ?

That ritual? Been done before, and the people who did it? Didn't NEED a ritual. In fact, according to Kun himself, he screwed up by preserving his spirit within the temple walls and thus trapping himself.

Where was the ritual done before, hmm ? I didn't see many Sith spirits running rampant across the Galaxy and of course the Jedi attacking Kun through the force didn't have any influence...

And 'creating clone bodies' is creating life?

Nadd tells Kun that they can use Sadow's knowledge to create a new body for him. Who was talking aboute "cloning" here ? Can you clone a spirit - I don't think so...

Especially considering makashi is weak against Djem So. Would Kun be destroyed by a Djem So user then?

Making things up again ? Makashi is the ultimate refinment of lightsaber combat so it isn't "weak" against other forms. The only weaknesses it has that are stated are fights against ranged weapons and multiple oponents. So ? And even if your LIE would be the thruth - neither Sidious nor Yoda uses Djem So...

...and a double bladed lightsaber is unique? they were mass produced in about forty years.

Yes ? How many short-hilted double-bladed lightsabers being handled with only one hand did you see ? Kun's weapon is the ONLY weapon like that. Period.

Except 'overpowered' could be taken so many ways. Was he giving his all? Was he holding back? Escape's asked you to respond to what he said on the matter because he brought it up rather well. There's nothing that contradicts the novel either, even by the DEFINITION of overpowered.

Stop trying to contradict Lucas. Sidious tried to kill Mace according to Lucas which directly contradicts the idea that he held back. Period.
And Lucas also overwrites all other source so don't start arguing EU stuff. Yes...it doesn't make sense that Sidious' clones do look like this too and the "mask" is mentioned but it's directly stated in the commentary that the lightning reversed at him was the cause of his transformation. Case closed.

And Odan wasn't choked, if he were choked, he wouldn't be able to monologue as he died.

No. He grabs his throat because...hmm ?

Why wouldn't it? And in this Golden Age, the Jedi are having about six or seven of the best warriors the order had seen, Mace, whom you described as the greatest saber prodigy, Yoda, the strongest Jedi master ever, anakin the Chosen One, Obi-wan, the undisputed master of Soresu...

How many people are noted as gifted duellists or prodigies of lightsaber combat ? Yoda, Mace, Depa, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Revan, Malak, Kavar, Tulak Hord, all (major) Ancient Sith Lords, Maul, Dooku, Cin Drallig. I have roughly 15 people in my mind. And I never saw the description "prodigy" for Sidious when it came to sheer combat - it's not his "style"...

The moment Aleema had another trained force user against her, her track record isn't so good there.

You're talking about Ulic "sex slave" Qel-Droma ? Satal "What the heck?" Keto ?

Bla bla LEVIATHAN bla bla

You really want to compare those things to being that could butcher Jedi ? Terantataks that could wipe Jedi from existance ? A Sith beast that made an entire temple filled with mutated Massassi warriors run away and needed metre thick energy blasts to get defeated finally ? Dude...the beast filled the entire temple - the Leviathan Kyp faced was a joke compared to this and the bigger Leviathan was still small compared to that monster.
And even that thing took 4 people including Luke's most gifted student to be defeated while Kun killed Sadow's beast on his own.

On this duel, I reiterate, I have to agree with Nai.

ROTS Sidious and Yoda aren't a match for these two.

As for the world-freezing, Nai, I think Sidious froze Coruscant when they buried the Super-Star Destroyer Luskyana (sp?)

Gee, Nai, HOWEVER would the strongest Jedi master and force of light in the galaxy defeat Kun ina dark side? Block him from the force? stop his heart with Morichro? Cripple him with Malasia? Put a saber through his heart? And we see them throw around pods, meaning that's all they can do? I'd also love to see Kun deal with two of the best lightsaber duelists who'd ever lived, one of whom has spent time on Korriban and summoned the spirits of the Dark Lords to aid him.

Bull! Beldarian arrived at the planet at....400BBY! And he was a Jedi at that point, and a darksider with the planet amplifying his powers.

The Underlord was apparently one of the Sith Lords who was present when Ruin created a new Order, and Rivan was killed by a Jedi.

Gravo, Nai...not a single one of thsoe was used by Dooku in regards to the hiding thing. Frightening power doesn't really hold up to godlike power, now does it?

Bodo Baas? Ashka Boda? And try this for a feat war: Sidious had the Jedi order wiped out and shattered the very fabric of space. Hm, suddenly Kun's looking like a small fry.

Proof? Hm, none...considering Ulic is just waiting for Kun, the wall of light only imrpisoned him TEMPORARILY and Kun told Ulic to keep the others occupied. Hm.

Coruscant. When the Lusankya was hidden. He wiped their minds of it, too.

The entire point of Sith spirits is they bind themselves to the world via their own malice, a place or an object.

Creating a new body? And that body would be human and not a creature of alchemy? Sidious knew alchemy himself...the Chrysalids? Sentinals?

Makashi lacks when compared to Djem So. And Sidious knows...what, every form? And Yoda defeated a Makashi user. Makashi's fineness doesn't stand up to the ferocity of Djem So and that's one of the reasons Anakin outmuscled Dooku, FACT.

That's great. A double bladed saber's a double bladed saber, and see see Kun swing the weapon a grand total of...three times, one of which he's holding it with two hands.

No, Lucas said that's what they planned, but much was added to the scene. Nothing about the current state. Sorry, that EU stuff came out after ROTS, so it was approved and verified by LFL. And we've seen Sidious change his face as he wills, so the lightning is not the cause and that's his natural face, unless you want to argue why noone else suffers those effects and that lightning rots your teeth, considering the 'strain' could easily be him dropping the mask or the lightning removing the mask. That we've seen his change his face at will, that his clones look the same and that we know of force mask? Logics state...

Odan's hands are to the sides of him, he's not grabbing his throat and he's even TALKING. When you choke, you can't talk.

And there's the description for 'exceptional' with Sidious's lightsaber abilities. And considering Maul's description of Sidious's saber abilities...and that's fifteen out of...thousands? Millions?

Nomi Sunrider perhaps? Though Satal's a good example, too...the Krath were spoiled, inexperienced brats and when someone fought them seriously, they were destroyed.

Leviathans are described as the deadliest of Sithspawn, case closed.
Unlike Kun, Luke's students had their wits and sabers and not the dark side and massive Sith amulets backing them up. The mother leviathan was...how big exactly? And if that Sith Wyrm filled the temple, how was it not eating the guys observing the sacrifices?

Do de do...

Actually, now that I get thinking about it, that email shown on Janus's private forums specifically states that: "Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord in history" - and it is an approved line from Lucas.

Coupled with the fact that more sources label Sidious as the most powerful than any other Sith (including Ragnos and Kun), shouldn't that wrap up the debate?

I talked to the author, he confirmed that it was his opinion and shouldn't be the end all be all

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gee, Nai, HOWEVER would the strongest Jedi master and force of light in the galaxy defeat Kun ina dark side? Block him from the force? stop his heart with Morichro? Cripple him with Malasia? Put a saber through his heart? And we see them throw around pods, meaning that's all they can do? I'd also love to see Kun deal with two of the best lightsaber duelists who'd ever lived, one of whom has spent time on Korriban and summoned the spirits of the Dark Lords to aid him.

Why you are always turning the debate into Kun vs Yoda AND Sidious ? I'm talking about Kun vs one of them since the other one would be busy with DN Luke here. And please...you know that Yoda wouldn't block Kun from the force, stop his heart, cripple him or something else because he didn't even use this stuff against his worst enemy. ROTS Sidious and Yoda are limited exactly to that what they have shown in ROTS both encountering their worst opponent. They would have used anything they could have used there.

Bull! Beldarian arrived at the planet at....400BBY! And he was a Jedi at that point, and a darksider with the planet amplifying his powers.

It's stated that he and Taselda were sent to the planet together "shortly before the Great Jedi Purge" and fell to the Dark Side there for some unknown reason.

The Underlord was apparently one of the Sith Lords who was present when Ruin created a new Order, and Rivan was killed by a Jedi.

Oh he was ? Source ? And Rivan was killed on a battlefield on Ruusan. We are talking about several hundret force users attacking each other but you are sure that a single Jedi killed him ?

Gravo, Nai...not a single one of thsoe was used by Dooku in regards to the hiding thing. Frightening power doesn't really hold up to godlike power, now does it?

"Darkness beyond darkness" and "black hole in the force" are used by Dooku to descripe Sidious ability to cloud his presence in the force in the ROTS novel. And Ragnos power was "frightening" to a person who trained one Sith Lord who could kill an entire planet filled with force users with a single force attack and who did wipe 3 Jedi Council Members from existance with a single force attack. And somebody with that kind of apprentice and own power calls somebody else "frightening" ?

Bodo Baas? Ashka Boda? And try this for a feat war: Sidious had the Jedi order wiped out and shattered the very fabric of space. Hm, suddenly Kun's looking like a small fry.

Wow. ROTS Sidious has done nothing but giving a comment to his troops. That is a great display of his power, yes...

Proof? Hm, none...considering Ulic is just waiting for Kun, the wall of light only imrpisoned him TEMPORARILY and Kun told Ulic to keep the others occupied. Hm.

Again: Do you really think the Jedi would be stupid enough to place Ulic with his full powers right in the Senate with only two normal persons guarding them ? Obviously Kun could open his chains easily - Ulic himself should have been able to do this too. And what can two normal Soldiers do against a Sith Lord ?

Coruscant. When the Lusankya was hidden. He wiped their minds of it, too.

a) This was done far past ROTS so that doesn't belong to Sidious power.
b) It's only SPECULATION what Sidious did. Either the Empire executed all witnesses or Sidious wiped their minds - but what use would he have to freeze the planet ?

The entire point of Sith spirits is they bind themselves to the world via their own malice, a place or an object.

Kun wanted to leave his mortal body but keep all his powers. That's a little bit different from just dieing and leaving a spirit behind.

Creating a new body? And that body would be human and not a creature of alchemy? Sidious knew alchemy himself...the Chrysalids? Sentinals?

The sentinels were clones. We're talking about creating live out of nothing here...a new body for Nadd.

Makashi lacks when compared to Djem So. And Sidious knows...what, every form? And Yoda defeated a Makashi user. Makashi's fineness doesn't stand up to the ferocity of Djem So and that's one of the reasons Anakin outmuscled Dooku, FACT.

ROFL. No. It doesn't. It's the ultimate refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. The only situation where this can come from is the duel between Dooku and Anakin where Dooku is descriped as not being able to parry Anakin's hits properly which is obviously bull since he is able to catch overhead strike from Anakin (two handed) and Obi-Wan (one hand) combined overhead with one hand easily. Movie > novelization.

And yes...Yoda defeated Dooku. But Dooku isn't Kun with his unique weapon, his force powers and his amulets. And since when does Sidious knew every form ?

That's great. A double bladed saber's a double bladed saber, and see see Kun swing the weapon a grand total of...three times, one of which he's holding it with two hands.

No. A double bladed saber ISN'T compareable to Kun's blade. Normally they are used with both hands (see Maul in TPM) and of course there is the danger that somebody cut's through the weapon. Kun's weapon is much smaller than Mauls (or the standart double blade version) and he always uses it one-handed when both blades are ignited.

No, Lucas said that's what they planned, but much was added to the scene. Nothing about the current state.

ROFL. No. He says that the only thing they've added was Sidious faking weakness after he tries to destroy Mace with his lightning. The entire quote fromt he commentary:

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine uses his power and tries to destroy Mace and Mace deflects his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak (so AFTER anything else happened and he tried to destroy Mace) was something that I added later. It Mmoves the point where Anakin turns to this moment right there and it's clear that he wants him (Palpatine) to go on trial and pump him for information how to get these powers"

So the only thing that was added to the scene was Palpatine faking weakness after he had already been overpowered by Mace AND tried to destroy him with his force powers. Stop arguing Lucas own words.

Sorry, that EU stuff came out after ROTS, so it was approved and verified by LFL. And we've seen Sidious change his face as he wills, so the lightning is not the cause and that's his natural face, unless you want to argue why noone else suffers those effects and that lightning rots your teeth, considering the 'strain' could easily be him dropping the mask or the lightning removing the mask. That we've seen his change his face at will, that his clones look the same and that we know of force mask? Logics state...

Excuse me...but you are wrong. The ROTS DVD with the commentary recorded for it was released way after everything else and it directly contradicts what is written down. I know it's stupid but if the makers say that the lightning reflected back at Sidious was responsible for the transformation - then this is the case. End of debate.

Odan's hands are to the sides of him, he's not grabbing his throat and he's even TALKING. When you choke, you can't talk.

No. One of his hands is on his throats and he has quite some problems to talk as he pauses his speak some times. And we have seen even non force users talking in the movies while getting choked by Vader...

And there's the description for 'exceptional' with Sidious's lightsaber abilities. And considering Maul's description of Sidious's saber abilities...and that's fifteen out of...thousands? Millions?

Yes...it's fifteen out of thousands or millions but Kun is among those people who are quite on Sidious level when it comes down to SABER duelling.

Leviathans are described as the deadliest of Sithspawn, case closed.

No...they are descriped as "one of the deadliest war machines used during the Hundret Year Darkness". So they weren't the deadliest stuff at their own time and much less the deadliest stuff of all times.

Unlike Kun, Luke's students had their wits and sabers and not the dark side and massive Sith amulets backing them up. The mother leviathan was...how big exactly? And if that Sith Wyrm filled the temple, how was it not eating the guys observing the sacrifices?

Wow. So now you are telling me that Kun > 4 of Luke's students because he had the Dark Side ? Uh-Hu....think about it.

So? Those are the movies. In the EU, Yoda knew those abilities.

And 'shortly before' has turned into 400 BBY, that's the date now given for their arrival upon Nam Chorios.

Rivan's death is described as 'a Jedi', and the Underlord was mentioned to be a Sith Lord who was likely present at the start of the Order by Abel Pena. And apparently the head Sith of Legacy has been studying the Dark Side on Korriban and refining the Sith for over a century, and I'll put money that Cade Skywalker'll kill him. However, moot point: just thought I'd put Krayt's name in as someone who's been studying the Dark Side for over a century...and just about every Dark Lord, of the Ruusan times, Ruin, Belia Darzu, Rivan, the Underlord, Bane...they were betrayed by their own side, leading to their deaths in some manner.

That's great. I'll take Godlike power over fightening power any day.

And according to Sidious, it was personally done. The best source of information? Perhaps not. Anything contradicting him there?

Get over it: The wall of light was described as temporary and imprisoning, Kun wouldn't even know about it, Ulic didn't even treat the trial as significant and was just waiting for Kun, Kun believed Ulic could stall the other Jedi...you're going from unsupported conjecture and nothing more...and there's also the factor of the four Jedi in the arena in case Ulic, the unarmed, manacled Ulic tried anything.

Speculation? And perhaps he froze them simply so they couldn't interfere. And he froze them to get the Lusankya hidden, what he did after is the part up for speculation.

Kun also screwed up: He managed that part, but he preserved his spirit within the walls of the temple, trapping himself.

The sentinels were living creatures, created by and imbued with the power of the DS via alchemy. And there's no proof what sort of Body Nadd was talking about. It could easily have been the body of a Terentatek for him, being as Kun became a skilled alchemist in creating monsters.

Rofl! Omg! Wow! Stop hurling one word out. And Dooku also used a unique weapon and style, point? And Sidious was stated to have mastered every form, I've posted the passage before. All the forms of lightsaber, esoteric disciplines of Tera Kasi, etc? The elegant form of Makashi is simply weak against the ferocity and the strikes of Form V. Oh, and according to the novelization, they were toying with Dooku at that point in time, nothing contradicting it? Hm.

Except it is and no Jedi's going to spend time marvelling at Kun's blade. That it's one handed doesn't make it any less a double bladed lightsaber and by Yoda and Sidious's time? Archaic.

And it alters the entire scene, thanks. When Lucas is talking about what';s happening and not what was planned, get back to me. Even Pablo said that it was still inconclusive.

They didn't, according to them it's the strain of the dark side. Quite frankly, there's nothing about the lightning scarring him and in the EU, there's a well of viewpoints, even AFTER the DVD came out, meaning all that info was approved by LFL knowing what the makers said. And Lucas added something, he changed it, it's ambiguous because of that. Overpowered Sidious was holding back. Tries to destroy Mace? He reacts angrily, then gets a new idea for Anakin. Sidious fakes weakness, everything works out, lightning doesn't rot your teeth, change your eyes and hair, doesn't affect anyone else that way, his clones look the same, the dark side energies were directly said as causing Sidious's appearance and we see him changing his face. And going a it further, the idea is that the force mask can be removed by lightning. Ambiguous comments that CAN be taken other ways compared to actual evidence that we can ascertain? Yeah. Considering Lucas had to approve the ideas personally or even contributed to what Stover wrote and the ideas of what else's been written on the subject, from Shadows of the Empire to Sithisis. So, yeah, it's totally ridiculous, and I can easily say, since Lucas is speaking past tense that things were changed. It's contradictory, idiotic and since the debate's still going on without any official word except it's ambiguous.

Ok, why don't we look at the comic again? One of his hands is to the side, the other's holding a scepter. His hands are not at his throat and he's talking. And when were these guys talking when choked by Vader? Needa? Motti? And maybe Odan's having problems speaking because he's, you know, dying. His hands aren't near his throat either, just look at the image, one's holding the scepter, one's to the side with two fingers out of view.

Kun has...one quote describing him as a master swordsman. Him and thousands of others. That alone is not enough to place him above the levels of Mace and Yoda. On the level? Perhaps. Above them?

In which area? Leviathans were described as the deadliest creations of alchemy, and were thought to have had the power to obliterate the army of light on Ruusan, though Seviss Vaa died before he finished work on them.

Kun was facing a weaker creature...with a sith amulet. Luke's students were facing two consecutive leviathans and had only sabers and their wits...and din't have the advantage of Kun's complete training.

Oh, yeah, and during the trial, Ulic is imprisoned in something.

And Kun only swings the damn lightsaber three times

Why you are always turning the debate into Kun vs Yoda AND Sidious ? I'm talking about Kun vs one of them since the other one would be busy with DN Luke here. And please...you know that Yoda wouldn't block Kun from the force, stop his heart, cripple him or something else because he didn't even use this stuff against his worst enemy. ROTS Sidious and Yoda are limited exactly to that what they have shown in ROTS both encountering their worst opponent. They would have used anything they could have used there.

I agree, again. As of RotS, Yoda nor Sidious have a chance against these two.

"Darkness beyond darkness" and "black hole in the force" are used by Dooku to descripe Sidious ability to cloud his presence in the force in the ROTS novel. And Ragnos power was "frightening" to a person who trained one Sith Lord who could kill an entire planet filled with force users with a single force attack and who did wipe 3 Jedi Council Members from existance with a single force attack. And somebody with that kind of apprentice and own power calls somebody else "frightening" ?

No. Because, Dooku had just finished describing Anakin and Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was described as a beacon of light, pure clarity. Anakin was described as a raging stormcloud, with lightning.

It states no where that Dooku was using this to specifically describe Palpatine's ability to shield himself in the Force. That is an assumption, Nai. Dooku was describing Palpatine in general.

Yes...it's fifteen out of thousands or millions but Kun is among those people who are quite on Sidious level when it comes down to SABER duelling.

Totally agree.

Like I said: Against these two is one thing, I'm focusing on their chances against Kun, who seems to be placed as a bastion of total power above the strongest Jedi up to that point