LS, prove that even if (and that's a big if) palpatine knows the exact technique, prove that he would be able to resist it. he clearly knew of the force push technique, yet he could resist a force push of much less magnitude then Traya's force drain that was able to instantly kill three jedi masters.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Once more: You're wrong. Proof the knowledge was lost on Malachor, I don't recall it existing there exclusively.And Palpatine is a 'black hole in the force', fancy that...once mroe: Force drain preceeds Kotor 2 by ABOUT TEN YEARS.
And it's only 4000 years, plenty of time to develop something new. And Palpatine had the help and direct assistance of the souls of the Ancients
The technique was learned by Traya only at Malachor academy. Same with Nihilus. The proof was said by Traya. I could say that Revan and Malak were tutored for the years they spent in the outer rim by all the spirits of the ancient sith. I mean there is no proof to contradict it, so hey!
1.The Exile was described as a wound in the force. He existed independently of the force. He was devoid of it. He was "the death of the force".
2. This "black hole in the force" BS could mean a variety of things. One possible interpretation is that he is an incarnation of the cruelties of the darkside. It has no bearing on power, only ethics and morals. I suppose according to your logic based on ambigous terms given by enthusiasts, that Revan was the heart of the force, the very incarnation of the lightside. Or no, even better, the Exile was the "death of the force." I suppose he pwns everyone in Star Wars! After all he can "kill the force!"
3. Again, there is no proof that he had such a technique. If he did, which is VERY unlikely, he did not use it, nor was he ever stated to use it against his most hated enemies.
No, actually there IS proof...force drain has been around since DE...he used it on Coruscant and on Byss since he fed on the life and the force of those on Byss and used it as his feeding ground, but moderated himself as not to kill anyone. And Yoda knew defenses against most every darkside technique, so...what does this tell you? And this is an age of people who can only close themselves to the Force at will, so....see: Tholme in the Siege of Saleucami
And Sidious is described directly as a black hole in the force, no metaphors, and different there, thanks.
Oh, so Traya learned it at Malachor meaning it ONLY exists there? The souls of the ancients wouldn't be able to teach it? Right.
Originally posted by Count Kent
LS, prove that even if (and that's a big if) palpatine knows the exact technique, prove that he would be able to resist it. he clearly knew of the force push technique, yet he could resist a force push of much less magnitude then Traya's force drain that was able to instantly kill three jedi masters.
Ever going to reply Lightsnake?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, actually there IS proof...force drain has been around since DE...he used it on Coruscant and on Byss since he fed on the life and the force of those on Byss and used it as his feeding ground, but moderated himself as not to kill anyone. And Yoda knew defenses against most every darkside technique, so...what does this tell you?And Sidious is described directly as a black hole in the force, no metaphors, and different there, thanks.
Oh, so Traya learned it at Malachor meaning it ONLY exists there? The souls of the ancients wouldn't be able to teach it? Right.
1. And this is ROTS Sidious we are talking about. I do not care about the implications of Sidious as of DE. That is debate for another time. If he new Traya's technique, an ability to which there is no defence, why did he not use it against Yoda. It was an ability to which there was no defence.
2. I completely disagree. This is just a description. I suppose then Revan is the incarnation of the lightside and the Exile pwns all? I am sorry, but pure BS.
3. The point is Sidious did not use the "technique to which there was no defence" against his most hated enemies. If there is no defence, and if the knowledge was lost, HOW could Yoda defend against it. Answer that.
In the context of the movies Yoda may have been able to defend against every single technique employed by the Sith because a grand total of three techniques were demonstrated! Force lightning, TK and choke! All three of them are non issues compared to Traya's technique.
1. And Sidious has already learned what, a lot, from the spirits of the dark Lords, never mind that was pre-DE anyways. And once more: Possibly because it was in a DIFFERENT TIME AND PLACE and DEFENSES CAN BE MADE and YODA HAS MASTERED DEFENSES AGAINST ALL OF THE DARK SIDE
2. Find me something not by Kreia there.
3. Proof there's no defense against it four thou years later? Because there's no POSSIBLE way Traya could be wrong, right?
Fascinating. Yoda's still the most powerful Jedi until that point. And in the context of the movie, that's all that exists, hm? Once more, this is an era of Jedi where they can sever their connection from the force with no side effects at all.
The fact that Traya believed there to be no defence implies that she wouldn't be able to defend against it, so how is Sidious going to defend against it as of ROTS when he has never shown to know about the technique up to this point, when Traya who knows it virtually inside out believes there to be no defence against it. Sidious wasn't even able to resist Yoda's force push, and Traya's drain is clearly greater then that simple push.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Veitch didn't create Sidious first off, and up until that point, Veitch had created most of them...KJA wrote GAOTS and FOTSE mostly himself.
The difference is, Veitch didn't 'create' Sidious and he's talking about the TOTJ era, not DE. Veitch created the concepts of the ancients, but KJA filled in the blanks. I don't see how this means anything towards Sidious since they're discussing TOTJ and TOTJ alone. It does show KJA might consider the strongest title between Kun and Sidious, but that's it.
Is there something you didn't understand ?
Anderson says that Kun possibly > Sidious.
Veitch shows up and says that "his" Sith Lords (not talking about Sidious) were "wasted" by Anderson and the only persons he could have been talking about are the Ancients and Ulic Quel-Droma as DE Sidious never confronted Kun.
See what I mean ? If Veitch things the Ancients and Ulic are closer to Kun than Anderson showed it in the comics and Anderson believes that Kun is superior to Sidious than, logically, there is the possibility that Veitch creations are superior to Sidious too (which means Sadow, Ragnos, Kressh and Freedon Nadd).
While it may be true that countering TK is basic, Yoda's power is far and away above most Jedi, so I dubt most could counter him if they tried.
Excuse me. If Mace Windu is able to counter force TK from Sidious (who is commonly agreed to be more powerful than Windu) then why the hell can't Sidious block a force push from Yoda when Yoda is his equal ?
And Sidious could go for force lightning on traya, which'd be roughly the same thing, or even use the drain on her. And we're considering that Sidious wouldn't have learned of these 'unblockable' techniques from the ancient Sith he was talking to, he'd obviously consider any other Sith Lord a threat to him.
How would he immediatly detect that Traya is a Sith Lord ? And hell...Sidious is damn arrogant as seen at the start of his confrontation with Yoda. I doubt he would instantly sense Traya is a Sith Lord and then instantly attack her - much more instantly kill her or take her out of the fight somehow.
A technique only blockable by the strongest Jedi masters?
Or by every dumb ass able to hold a lightsaber in front of him ?
And Sidious has already learned what, a lot, from the spirits of the dark Lords, never mind that was pre-DE anyways. And once more: Possibly because it was in a DIFFERENT TIME AND PLACE and DEFENSES CAN BE MADE and YODA HAS MASTERED DEFENSES AGAINST ALL OF THE DARK SIDE
I told you once and I will tell you again: The only known "defence" would be to witness a massive destruction of force users, seperate oneself from the force not to be killed by those wave of "emotions" in the force and then have the Exile's talents for force bonds being able to "restore" the lost connection to the force.
3. Proof there's no defense against it four thou years later? Because there's no POSSIBLE way Traya could be wrong, right?
See above. That is the only way of defence, or better "immunity" against said attack.
Once more, this is an era of Jedi where they can sever their connection from the force with no side effects at all.
This is very funny. Where did you see PT Jedi sever their conncetion from the force completely and then simply "regain" it without having to something special ?
Contained the dark side on Dagobah to a single spot and destroyed an army of battle droids with just his saber?
Oh my. He contained the dark side energy of the dark jedi he defeated into a single spot (the tree).
There's also Freedon Nadd, Aleema, Satal...However, KJA expressly stated that the Ancients were his in an interview...he did the writing and the creations of the ancients and it's most certainly his style.
And define the context here...Veitch thinks Anderson squandered his creations-whomsoever he could be referring to-...there's no HINT that Veitch was involved with the Ancient Sith, Anderson's name is on the label and Anderson took over complete control with golden Age and Fall. And there's the obvious insinuation that Palpatine is stronger than Kun there, too, especially considering he'd only ever face Kun in his weaker states by ROTS or pre OT.
Because in the novelization, there are things naturally different. Hell, I'm pretty sure Yoda pushes him back at one point. And Sidious was overconfident before Yoda chucked him, until then, Yoda was the weak little green guy Sidious blasted...Yoda showed he was serious.
Sidious's been shown to detect both darkness and force power in an individual and I'm certain with his immense knowledge of Sith history, he'd know about Darth Traya. The difference is Yoda is a jedi of a broken order and Sidious disdains Jedi, Traya is a Sith of the old school.
Bare handed, you can only block lightning if you're strong enough with the saber. It's not like blocking with a saber is effortless, either.
And once again: It's been four thousand years. YOu think after Nihilius the Jedi wouldn't have developed something? New techniques were invented a lot by the Jedi.
Master Tholme? Didn't I write that? To trick Quinlan, he severed himself from the Force, and later simply 'reconnected' and appeared to save Quin. Perhaps this is the ancient Jedi technique of Deus Ex Machina, though.
There were a LOT of Bpfasshi Jedi Yoda defeated, including the master...and until Yoda contained it, there was quite the dark side presence.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's also Freedon Nadd, Aleema, Satal...However, KJA expressly stated that the Ancients were his in an interview...he did the writing and the creations of the ancients and it's most certainly his style.
You are wrong here.
Veitch designed Nadd and all TOTJ:KotoR characters including their backstories which means that at least Sadow belongs to his creations too and technically all Ancient Sith. Yes...Anderson later did the writing and he obviously changed some things. Have a look at the scene were Sadow creates solar flares at the beginning of DLotS (Veitch / Anderson) and then have a look at the very same scene in FotSE (Anderson). In the second version Sadow surely looks less powerful especially when you compare that to the saying in DLotS were he is "causing the death of a star system" with basically a handmovement.
Now add Veitch's thought that most of his characters were "wasted" by Anderson. I mean really...in some situations there is no logic whatsoever in the things Anderson shows sometimes. Kun is using Sadows and Nadds knowledge - both people who had several years (in Sadows case more than a century) to train that stuff. And with all geniousity and raw force power Kun might have - I don't think he would be able to surpass them in the matter of some months or a year. Logically spoken...if Anakin was the dude with the most potential ever (which is very likely since he has been the "son of the force"😉 and even he couldn't surpass people like Sidious or even his own master after more than a decade of training - how would Kun manage to do this in some years ?
Ok. He exterminated Nadd using one of Sadows' "gimmicks" - that is still possible. But surpassing Sadow in that short amount of time or Ragnos who ruled over Sadow for more than a century without Sadow developing the idea to plot against him or challenge him ? I think that is very unlikely.
And define the context here...Veitch thinks Anderson squandered his creations-whomsoever he could be referring to-...there's no HINT that Veitch was involved with the Ancient Sith, Anderson's name is on the label and Anderson took over complete control with golden Age and Fall. And there's the obvious insinuation that Palpatine is stronger than Kun there, too, especially considering he'd only ever face Kun in his weaker states by ROTS or pre OT.
*cough*
Anderson gives credit to Veitch multiple times for creating the entire time period and the ancient Sith. Hell...they even appear in the DE and EE comics before the other series were written so obviously they aren't Anderson's creations.
And what ? Because Anderson wants a fight between Sidious and Kuns spirit to determine who's stronger Sidious must be stronger ? May I remind you that Luke overcame Sidious in DE together with Leia while it took the combined power of Luke, Vodo and Luke's students to wipe Kun's spirit from existance who (by anything we have seen concerning force spirits so far) must have been weaker then Kun in his original state ?
Because in the novelization, there are things naturally different. Hell, I'm pretty sure Yoda pushes him back at one point. And Sidious was overconfident before Yoda chucked him, until then, Yoda was the weak little green guy Sidious blasted...Yoda showed he was serious.
Yes. And Kreia would be the weak old woman until she gives him some trouble.
Sidious's been shown to detect both darkness and force power in an individual and I'm certain with his immense knowledge of Sith history, he'd know about Darth Traya. The difference is Yoda is a jedi of a broken order and Sidious disdains Jedi, Traya is a Sith of the old school.
How would he know about Darth Traya ? The only information about this name belongs to the Exile since all other persons who knew this name died in the events of KotoR 2. And then this information would be part of the Jedi library which Sidious didn't have access to at the time of ROTS.
And Kreia in the games appears perfectly "balanced" between the Light and the Dark. If Sidious would sense something than a "Grey Jedi" and surely no Sith Witch. And even if that would be the case - what would he do ? Immediatly attack her with anything he has ?
Bare handed, you can only block lightning if you're strong enough with the saber. It's not like blocking with a saber is effortless, either.
Obi-Wan was able to do this and force wise (as proven by the fact that he was nearly not chosen as a Padawan because his lack of force potential) he wasn't exactly the greatest force user of the Order (although his wisdom and lightsaber abilities compensate this).
And once again: It's been four thousand years. YOu think after Nihilius the Jedi wouldn't have developed something? New techniques were invented a lot by the Jedi.
I said what could have been "developed". Why would the develope some defence against a technique that was erased from the universe especially when the only known way to counter it was what I descriped in my last posting ?
Master Tholme? Didn't I write that? To trick Quinlan, he severed himself from the Force, and later simply 'reconnected' and appeared to save Quin. Perhaps this is the ancient Jedi technique of Deus Ex Machina, though.
No, you didn't. Still that won't work as a defence since the Exile became a "hole" in the force and then Nihilus tried to drain power from a "negative" energy source thereby weakening himself. Not to mention that you would be pretty much tooled if you seperate yourself from the force and then have yourself being attacked with any form of offensive force power.
There were a LOT of Bpfasshi Jedi Yoda defeated, including the master...and until Yoda contained it, there was quite the dark side presence.
Err...He defeated only one of the Dark Jedi on Dagobah and said Dark Jedi died in the well known tree-cave giving it it's Dark Side presence.
And there wasn't a "Dark Side" presence before...the planet had a strong presence of the living force, hence Yoda remained undetectable there - and this is the reason why Luke detects a unusual high presence of "lifeforce" there when he first visits the place in ESB.
This is getting slightly off topic. Bare in mind that Traya has more then just her instantkill. And I think that it's pretty clear that Sidious not being able to resist a force push from Yoda proves that he would not very likely be able to resist a force drain from Traya, as Traya's drain has shown to be able to instantly kill multiple users at once, some of them being powerful jedi masters, while Yoda's TK has been shown to be not so effective, so cut out the 'Yoda was the most powerful jedi ever up until the prequels, greatest enemy of the darkness' crap, he really wasn't that powerful.
No, Nai: Veitch designed everything up until Dark Lords of the Sith, meaning yes, he did give a rough outline of Sadow and the star destruction...however, in the brief image we see of sadow, he's human. However, Ludo? Gav, Jori, Marka? Those are Anderson's, as is Naga's character entirely. And like you said: Anderson shows a lack of logic often. Hell, Kun surpasses Vodo in a matter of years. Chalk it up to Anderson being a bad writer. While surpassing them may be unlikely, Kun's potential might have been brought out by embracing the dark side to an extent that the light was barred from him, whatever that means.
EE was written during the run of Tales of the Jedi, and Anderson's doing the writing for Golden age...Veitch's images of the ancients are often quite different than what Anderson portrays. Veitch may have created the concept, but the Golden Age, what we saw there, all the backstory and backgrounds was Anderson almost completely.
Like I said: Anderson seems to consider either Palpatine or Kun the top dogs, that's all I know. We've established he's not logical on these issues, you really want me to piece my way through it? And may I remind you it took Luke, Leia and practically the entire power of the lightside of the force to bind Sidious from the Force and he STILL came back until every Jedi ever bound his spirit into the dark side? And Kun gains more and more power as JA grows on and in I, Jedi, from Gantoris's death, from Kyp, from the darkside on Yavin he created...
I really doubt Sidious would've missed learning about one of the Triumvirate in his extremely thorough researches, especially as the Exile and his companions, in the new order likely would've mentioned her. And if NJO and Dark Nest taught us anything, there's no such thing as a gray Jedi. Kreia, by her own admission relies on the force and to quote Atton: "You don't get more Sith than that." if Kreia's not using the dark side here, will she be able to even pull off an instakill against someone as strong as Sidious who's gotten direct training from people she claims make her look like a child with a toy?
I don't think Dooku was giving his all into the force lightning, or a master with it to the extent of Sith like Palpatine. Ian McDiarmid was a bit ticked Lucas gave the Emperor's 'signature move' to Dookui in such a poor way.
Find a new technique in the force, develop something...same as Mace found a way to channel inner darkness, find a way to block a draining attack in the force. And if it can't be blocked, circumvent it. There's no technique of the dark side that's 100 percent infallible.
He beat the other Bpfasshi and then took out the master near the cave. the dark side presence was also contained to that spot when Yoda finished