Originally posted by leonheartmm
^assuming ur talkin about animal testing. MORALITY{and not the relegious type} makes it wrong. simply put, dont do onto others what you would not like done unto yourself. you wouldnt be in those animal's position would you?
Man already is in their place, lower social classes everywhere are treated no better than laboratory animals.
Originally posted by leonheartmmThat's not my morality, so why is that applicable? Because you think it is wrong? Weird.
^assuming ur talkin about animal testing. MORALITY{and not the relegious type} makes it wrong. simply put, dont do onto others what you would not like done unto yourself. you wouldnt be in those animal's position would you?
Originally posted by Regret
Man already is in their place, lower social classes everywhere are treated no better than laboratory animals.
which is WHY it is called WRONG. there are many things which are hazy in the realm of real morality based on logic but other are quite vivid and it doesnt take a genius to firgure out that causing someone or something hurt, pain and death is WRONG and evil.
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's not my morality, so why is that applicable? Because you think it is wrong? Weird.
unfortunately morality isnt YOURS to choose specially in very clear cases like this. it is something made out of logic. logic is more or less a constant and is clear cut in this case. you might decide to IGNORE it but you cannot just make you OWN MORALITY. i dont think its wrong without base. i already stated "dont do to others what you would not like done to yourself" you would not like to be in those animal's positions. it is merely coincidence that you were born a human in a civilised{apparently} society and they, animals in places and times where they could be caught for testing. it could just as well be you in their shoes.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
unfortunately morality isnt YOURS to choose specially in very clear cases like this. it is something made out of logic. logic is more or less a constant and is clear cut in this case. you might decide to IGNORE it but you cannot just make you OWN MORALITY. i dont think its wrong without base. i already stated "dont do to others what you would not like done to yourself" you would not like to be in those animal's positions. it is merely coincidence that you were born a human in a civilised{apparently} society and they, animals in places and times where they could be caught for testing. it could just as well be you in their shoes.
Morality isn't yours to choose either, that's the point. This is no clear case. And it is not made out of logic, it is made out of emotions you were fed since you were a child. There is no Absolute Morality, that you somehow happen to have the key to.
If you want to think it is wrong, great, go ahead, but it is not just absolutely wrong because you think so. The Golden Rule is easy, that#s about it it is not a universal rule, just like the bible...some subjective moral codes. Nothing more.
And yes, I could, and? What does that prove? Nothing? Yeah.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
which is WHY it is called WRONG. there are many things which are hazy in the realm of real morality based on logic but other are quite vivid and it doesnt take a genius to firgure out that causing someone or something hurt, pain and death is WRONG and evil.
For life to be how it is for whoever is living in it, no matter their class, it requires some people to be harder working, to be in pain, to die. Not nice, but until man is in a better state in general then why should someone care about the animal. The people that attack the use of laboratory animals could have been supporting humans in similar situations, why did they waste their time with animals when humans are currently in similar situations? What social status do they enjoy? Do they live their lives at the expense of some worker somewhere barely able to afford housing and food? I doubt many of them even considered people before they jumped on the save the animals bandwagon. Save the people, then do something about the animals.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Why?
simple. animals{YOU included} respond to a destructive, fatal or painful stimulus by avoiding, reducing or doing their best to get away from it making it fundamentally undesireable to the concious which is the basis of all arguments concerning reason{seeing as you wud just drown me in WHYs if i didnt explain} while a pleasureable stimulus makes you or other beings with a mind warm up to it and accept it with no resistance and infact ask for more which makes it DESIREABLE. we humans call what is desireable and ultimately benefitial to the conciousness, GOOD and hence RIGHT, while all that is harmful and hence UNDESIREABLE to the conciousness, BAD and WRONG. there, understand now?!
so unless you can say outloud that your for death,pain, suffering and degenration of the mind and conciounce i suggest u give it a rest.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
simple. animals{YOU included} respond to a destructive, fatal or painful stimulus by avoiding, reducing or doing their best to get away from it making it fundamentally undesireable to the concious which is the basis of all arguments concerning reason{seeing as you wud just drown me in WHYs if i didnt explain} while a pleasureable stimulus makes you or other beings with a mind warm up to it and accept it with no resistance and infact ask for more which makes it DESIREABLE. we humans call what is desireable and ultimately benefitial to the conciousness, GOOD and hence RIGHT, while all that is harmful and hence UNDESIREABLE to the conciousness, BAD and WRONG. there, understand now?!so unless you can say outloud that your for death,pain, suffering and degenration of the mind and conciounce i suggest u give it a rest.
Oh but some people are for death and pain of other people....so that is good as well, isn't it?
Basically you are saying selfishness is what is good..,
Originally posted by Bardock42
Morality isn't yours to choose either, that's the point. This is no clear case. And it is not made out of logic, it is made out of emotions you were fed since you were a child. There is no Absolute Morality, that you somehow happen to have the key to.
If you want to think it is wrong, great, go ahead, but it is not just absolutely wrong because you think so. The Golden Rule is easy, that#s about it it is not a universal rule, just like the bible...some subjective moral codes. Nothing more.And yes, I could, and? What does that prove? Nothing? Yeah.
URGH screw the bible. that isnt morality its dogma. and what i was taught as a child was CERTAINLY not moral. i havent developed these notions from childhood. only in the last 6 years or so, solidly atleast. infact it goes against what i was taught. TRUE morality is based on reason and logic. i have given you a logical reason for such practices to be immoral. you havent given me any real REASONS against the argument.
Sorry to sound like such a cynical bastard here, but half the people who are whining about Animal testing in the first place are hypocrites.
I'm a Doctor. I give Antibiotics and such medicine to patients.
Anyone who doesn't like Animals being tested on, you should stop taking any sort of Medicine or vaccine for the rest of your life, no matter how sick you are. Because if you take them, you contribute!
Just like a large amount of PETA Members are meat eaters. It's ridiculous.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
URGH screw the bible. that isnt morality its dogma. and what i was taught as a child was CERTAINLY not moral. i havent developed these notions from childhood. only in the last 6 years or so, solidly atleast. infact it goes against what i was taught. TRUE morality is based on reason and logic. i have given you a logical reason for such practices to be immoral. you havent given me any real REASONS against the argument.
Err, yes, there are people who DESIRE pain for others. And there are people that desire to life so much they put their own life above that of others. That is natural. And it basically blows your argument.
What it comes down to is that you think Animal Testing is wrong, and others think it isn't. You have no more reason to believe you are right than any other person, because when we look at it objectively, there are no morals beyond those we create.
Originally posted by Xavius
Sorry to sound like such a cynical bastard here, but half the people who are whining about Animal testing in the first place are hypocrites.I'm a Doctor. I give Antibiotics and such medicine to patients.
Anyone who doesn't like Animals being tested on, you should stop taking any sort of Medicine or vaccine for the rest of your life, no matter how sick you are. Because if you take them, you contribute!
Just like a large amount of PETA Members are meat eaters. It's ridiculous.
💃 Agreed
I worked in a lab through school, we worked on a number of drugs
Originally posted by Regret
For life to be how it is for whoever is living in it, no matter their class, it requires some people to be harder working, to be in pain, to die. Not nice, but until man is in a better state in general then why should someone care about the animal. The people that attack the use of laboratory animals could have been supporting humans in similar situations, why did they waste their time with animals when humans are currently in similar situations? What social status do they enjoy? Do they live their lives at the expense of some worker somewhere barely able to afford housing and food? I doubt many of them even considered people before they jumped on the save the animals bandwagon. Save the people, then do something about the animals.
ahh but i have never denied ANY of that. what im SAYING is that just because its NECESSARY{and if you research it a bit more u will indeed find that most of it is NOT necessary} doesnt make it RIGHT. it is{some of it} a NECESSARRY EVIL. but it would be good if we remembered that it IS an EVIL.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
ahh but i have never denied ANY of that. what im SAYING is that just because its NECESSARY{and if you research it a bit more u will indeed find that most of it is NOT necessary} doesnt make it RIGHT. it is{some of it} a NECESSARRY EVIL. but it would be good if we remembered that it IS an EVIL.
It isn't though.
to answer your question simply. people{and not ALL people but most people brought up in certain unhealthy enviornments} desire to hurt and harm others. no doubt about that. but as ull see i never talked about what people desired for OTHERS i talked about what people desired for THEMSELVES. over 90% of the people who DESIRE ruin and pain for other do NOT desire it for themselves! that is a fact. and the reason why my argument is NOT blown away.
for the very few who ARE PSYCHOTIC, NIHHLISTIC ETC AND DESIRE pain and death for other and THEMSELVES, their desires are MIXED. i can assure you that the negetive sentiment is not pure and uncorrupted but has grown over time along with positive sentiments and in certain dire situations gives the FALSE IMPRESSION of doing good to the conciousness . also take into account that these individuals do desire certain bad things but these things are NOT beneficial in reality to the conciousness{unless you think pain, suffering and death is actually beneficial to a person's conciousness} its only an ILLUSION of escape in their mind when the reality is that these desires neither PROTECT, nor PRESERVE, NURTURE or do ANY GOOD to the person's conciousness in REALITY. which was a huge part of my argument. the benefit of the conciousness NOT satisfaction of DESIRES. so there.
Well, then one person that desires pain and death for themself blows your argument away....oh...they exist. Well, good we are through with that.
Also, the fault in just talking what people want for themself is also obvious, just because it applies to oneself doesn't mean it does to everyone. That's one logical fallacy. Then we would have to argue why other species shouöld be included. And where to draw the line. Plants? Animals? Insects? All subjective, there's where all the beauty of logic is just flying up up and aways.
Also, why do you assume that people that do not desire pain and death don't have mixed desires...why are they not corrupted? All your decisions, not objective at all.
You seem to think there is some sort of always positive aspects to everyone "consciousness", well there isn't. And even if there was, why would that account for absolute indisputable morals?
Anyways, the thing is, there are no absolute standards. You may think animal testing is wrong, that is your choice, fine. But anyone else may just as much think that Animal Testing is good, and not only a necessary evil good, but really good, and they would not be wrong either. Since there is nothing that in any way sets what is right or wrong. It is always up to the person observing a deed.
Originally posted by leonheartmmI believe your opinion is wrong.
i believe your arguing merely for argument's sake.
i didnt say there were absolute standards but something very near them when simple and slear arguments with no paradoxes such as this one are seen. and all i have to say is that after a few clever replies you have decided to completely dismiss the whole arguments on the grounds that you dont like it and since you have a different point of view than mine therefore no standards for right and wrong truly exist. in the end, ill say this, SURELY YOU CAN DO BETTER! and if u cant than i feal even sadder for u than i currently did.