Animal testing is so wrong!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
as far as insects go, they deserve the same rights as an animal which is just about what humans have. we SHOULD take into account that the bugs dont need many things humans or animals do like loving care, feeding, not disturbing and free right to passgae everywhere which is why making them run away from populated areas isnt the same as removing humans residents. but as far as rights of freedom, rights of life and rights of not interfering with their necessities are concerned theres no reason to presume that they shouldnt get as much of these as humans{ofcourse it doesnt seem like that will ever happen realistically but u asked for my views and here they are}

Nah, sounds fine to me actually.

What about bacteria?

ahh bacteria. now bacteria actually ARE something where the lines of right and wrong become blurred and the reason for this is that we dont KNOW yet if indeed they have any normal or higher brain functions in that single celled body of theirs. they seem to do an aweful lot in activities but most of them are geared towards survival, and i dont think any serious attempts have been made to see if they do things ust for the heck of it or not purely for survival and if they have anything resembling a conciounce complex enough for the ideas of SELF etc to form which would give them rights. some do tend to show collective intelligence but its not well understood and unless we can understand more clearly what these things are, their RIGHTS will continue to be hazy.

I've always wondered, how is putting make-up on a monkey going to get anything anywhere?

PETA sucks.

Animal testing forever.

And if you're defending bacteria and insects, you're ****ing insane.

Sorry, but you are.

You realize how many bacteria you kill brushing your teeth?

Taking a shower?

Flushing the toilet?

MOVING?

Insects are just that. Insects. They outnumber us 1 billion to 1 or something, I dont think they're going extinct any time soon.

They have no higher-brain capacities. They know how to do one thing. Survive.

Go home. You lost.

Trees I can understand defending. They're necessary to life on this planet.

And while you fritter your time away defending animal rights, there are humans that need that same protection.

Look at yourself.

I despise you.

Originally posted by New Faith
PETA sucks.

Animal testing forever.

And if you're defending bacteria and insects, you're ****ing insane.

Sorry, but you are.

You realize how many bacteria you kill brushing your teeth?

Taking a shower?

Flushing the toilet?

MOVING?

Insects are just that. Insects. They outnumber us 1 billion to 1 or something, I dont think they're going extinct any time soon.

They have no higher-brain capacities. They know how to do one thing. Survive.

Go home. You lost.

Trees I can understand defending. They're necessary to life on this planet.

And while you fritter your time away defending animal rights, there are humans that need that same protection.

Look at yourself.

I despise you.

Sure you have a right to your opinion. But i dont see any reason not to care about the feelings of other living beings on this planet. I think its important to make sure we dont exploit them. With bugs, there are so many, all we can do is the best we can when trying not to kill them. Yes, there are humans who are in need too. But why not make all the conscious choices we can make in our everyday lives?

Originally posted by goatstradamus
Sure you have a right to your opinion. But i dont see any reason not to care about the feelings of other living beings on this planet. I think its important to make sure we dont exploit them. With bugs, there are so many, all we can do is the best we can when trying not to kill them. Yes, there are humans who are in need too. But why not make all the conscious choices we can make in our everyday lives?

Which would you rather see, then?

A human die from an untested drug?

Or a rat?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ahh bacteria. now bacteria actually ARE something where the lines of right and wrong become blurred and the reason for this is that we dont KNOW yet if indeed they have any normal or higher brain functions in that single celled body of theirs. they seem to do an aweful lot in activities but most of them are geared towards survival, and i dont think any serious attempts have been made to see if they do things ust for the heck of it or not purely for survival and if they have anything resembling a conciounce complex enough for the ideas of SELF etc to form which would give them rights. some do tend to show collective intelligence but its not well understood and unless we can understand more clearly what these things are, their RIGHTS will continue to be hazy.

In terms of animal testing for medical science... I've met patients with ALS, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and Huntington's... animal testing is necessary and in the grander scheme of things 'right' (although a better word is probably 'appropriate' or 'justified'😉 imo.

In terms of testing for commercial purposes I don't really have an opinion... those animals are usually bred for testing. If there was no testing they wouldn't exist. Its a catch 22.

Blue Dragon, u r SO right! i HATE animal testing!

apologies for ressurecting an old thread but i thought it better than starting a new one

i watched newsnight tonight and it was an animal testing special debate between the people from oxford university where they are building a new animal testing lab and anti testing bodies...along with a few other politicians and medical bodies

a good point was raised in that there seems to be 2 arguments that anti testing protesters use that are highly contradictory

one is that they argue that animals are so like humans that it is immoral to test on them...and on the other hand they argue that animals are so different to humans that the test are irrelevant and pointless

clearly both cant be true...

For the people that accept testing on animals, may I ask one question?
Why should a human life have more value than a chimpanzee?
Give me a good and proper reason why.

Originally posted by The thinker
For the people that accept testing on animals, may I ask one question?
Why should a human life have more value than a chimpanzee?
Give me a good and proper reason why.

This may be harsh, but let me try and make a point.

Your mother is dying of cancer, there is a drug that may save her, but it first has to be tested out on a chimpanzee.

If given the drug the cimp will die. If tested on the chimp, there is a good chance that your mother's life might be extended 10 or 20 years. Which is more important to you, your mom, or the chimp?

From a personal point of view, i would coose my mother 100 percent.
But personal feeling make your view very false.
If i were to choose between my mom being killed and your mom being killed, i would definately choose your mom, and if you were placed on the situation, the same would apply for you. Personal feelings for your loved ones can in a way be pictured as "selfish".
Some peope would kill hundreds of others to save their own life.
So when my mother is dying, i am going to sacrifice another life to save hers. Personal feelings can warp the truth of the matter.

Every one will place more value on their loved ones, but it does not necessarily mean that they do in fact have more value.

Originally posted by The thinker
From a personal point of view, i would coose my mother 100 percent.
But personal feeling make your view very false.
If i were to choose between my mom being killed and your mom being killed, i would definately choose your mom, and if you were placed on the situation, the same would apply for you. Personal feelings for your loved ones can in a way be pictured as "selfish".
Some peope would kill hundreds of others to save their own life.
So when my mother is dying, i am going to sacrifice another life to save hers. Personal feelings can warp the truth of the matter.

Every one will place more value on their loved ones, but it does not necessarily mean that they do in fact have more value.

The point is that every life that is saved as a result of animal testing is that of a mother, father, wife, husband, brother, etc. You asked "Why should a human life have more value than a chimpanzee?
Give me a good and proper reason why", I gave you a reason.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
The point is that every life that is saved as a result of animal testing is that of a mother, father, wife, husband, brother, etc. You asked "[i]Why should a human life have more value than a chimpanzee?
Give me a good and proper reason why[i/]", I gave you a reason.

I have just demonstrated that emotions can warp the truth of the actual situation, so in fact, there is no flaw in my arguement and you gave me no reason.

Originally posted by The thinker
I have just demonstrated that emotions can warp the truth of the actual situation, so in fact, there is no flaw in my arguement and you gave me no reason.

You asked for a reason why a human's life should have more value than an animal's. One answer is the emotional attachement that humans have amongst eachother. Another is the value of the family unit.

Whether you disagree with it or not, it is a reason. And emotions do not warp the truth, they affect perspective. There is a big difference.

A mother chimp has emotional attachement to its baby.
Does it not feel attachment?
When a buck gets its neck between the jaws of a lion, and suffocating, does it not feel pain?
With your arguement i have the right to say that when a person shoots a baby elephant, the mother has the right to kill the man because of the family unit.

Originally posted by The thinker
A mother chimp has emotional attachement to its baby.
Does it not feel attachment?

Yes, it does, once again what is your point?

My point is that humans put the valaue of their own kind above that of animals. Whether tha animal is an emotional being or sentient does not counter my point. You asked for a reason why a human's life should be valued than an animal's. Not a discussion about the comparative emotional capabilities among mammals.

Originally posted by The thinker
When a buck gets its neck between the jaws of a lion, and suffocating, does it not feel pain?

Actually no, it goes into a state of shock. There was an excellent study regarding this topic, I will try and find it. As for the point of bringing this up, what is your point and how does this relate to animal testing?

Originally posted by The thinker
With your arguement i have the right to say that when a person shoots a baby elephant, the mother has the right to kill the man because of the family unit.

You have the right to say almost anything you want. Doesn't mean that makes it correct.

As for the mother elephant attacking a predator (be it man or otherwise), that is not a right, that is more of a justification for aggresive/defensive behaviour. That again has nothing to do with animal testing and is not a well thought out argument.

Originally posted by The thinker
For the people that accept testing on animals, may I ask one question?
Why should a human life have more value than a chimpanzee?
Give me a good and proper reason why.

Let me turn your question back on you. Why does any life have value? Why should we care if either a human or a chimp dies?

To my point of view a life is as valuable as what is done with it. A human being can do much more with their life than any animal - even a relatively advanced primate like the chimpanzee. The human life just has more potential. Whereas the Chimpanzee would accomplish more by in the course of being the subject of an experiment than it ever could on its own.

So there is my answer in a nutshell, the human life has more potential, and thus more value.

I also happen to agree with the emotional argument, but this one is more logical.

Originally posted by docb77
Let me turn your question back on you. Why does any life have value? Why should we care if either a human or a chimp dies?

To my point of view a life is as valuable as what is done with it. A human being can do much more with their life than any animal - even a relatively advanced primate like the chimpanzee. The human life just has more potential. Whereas the Chimpanzee would accomplish more by in the course of being the subject of an experiment than it ever could on its own.

So there is my answer in a nutshell, the human life has more potential, and thus more value.

I also happen to agree with the emotional argument, but this one is more logical.

Excellent post, that one human who is saved might go on to play a role in the saving the entire population of chimpanzees from extinction. Kind of a silly point, but a point nonetheless.

I also find it odd how we are often asked to ignore the emotional argument, yet it is impossible to deny that we are emotional beings. You may not agree with an emotionally based argument, but it should never be dismissed.

Originally posted by docb77
Let me turn your question back on you. Why does any life have value? Why should we care if either a human or a chimp dies?

To my point of view a life is as valuable as what is done with it. A human being can do much more with their life than any animal - even a relatively advanced primate like the chimpanzee. The human life just has more potential. Whereas the Chimpanzee would accomplish more by in the course of being the subject of an experiment than it ever could on its own.

So there is my answer in a nutshell, the human life has more potential, and thus more value.

I also happen to agree with the emotional argument, but this one is more logical.

Humans do harm to the planet, there are some 6 billion of us.
Our greed, sucking the earth of recources, killing thousands of animals each day, humans are currently doing nothing good for the planet?
Name one positive thing we have done to this planet? Currently i dont see any use in our population getting any bigger. Animals are decreasing in number as we breed like rabbits. More people on this earth wil make it worse. So yes, i see more value in a chimp than the average person on the street.

You can ask what does a chimp done to the planet, the fact is, it has done nothing. Humans are like a parasite that is infecting the globe.

It is the sick reality of mans greed, we have free will, it is a magnificint gift, yet we dont use it in a positive way.
There is no need for more humans on this earth, so i will place more value on a chimpanzee's life than the average person.

If all of you are willing to place value on human life, then i have the right to place value on a simple animal like a buck.