Originally posted by Gplex
500x earth gravity is huge for someone who can change to SSj3.
Lets put a few facts down (^ means “to the power” ) Earth mass = 5.98x10^27, Suns mass = 1.989x10^33, black hole = 3.978x10^39 (Most info from http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/active/smblack.html & http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~jatila/astro/astro2/b_hole_dispersion.html)
A normal blackhole is around 2 million solor masses, a solor mass is the mass of our sun. (3.978x10^39)/(5.98x10^27) = 665217391300. A black hole gravity is 665217391300x earth gravity. We know that Goku can move with ease in around 500x earth gravity in normal form. Goku is able to move with ease in 500x50x50x50 = 62500000x earth gravity. 665217391300/62500000 = 10643.49 . Goku would need to be 10643.49x stronger then he was before fighting kid buu, to stand on the surface of a blackhole without even trying. Goku appeared to be as strong as kid buu at the end of dbz in his normal form (he would only need to become 3.3x stronger a year to supass ssj3 power in his normal form), making Goku 50x50x50= 125000x stronger which is more then enough to stand on a black hole with ease.
Debunked this a few pages ago.
The reason why Goku is faster
Goku as a kid could dodge bullets. (picture below) So at this point he could move faster then 340m/s. This is when he met Krillin. At the first tournament Krillin could follow Goku. At the second Krillin couldn't see him move so he had to be at lease 60x faster. Now tein was at one of those one and he could follow Goku movements. At the next tournament Goku move so fast that tein couldn't see him. So again he must be around 60x faster. 340x60x60 = 1224000m/s which is around 0.4% of the speed of light. Now Goku had a powerlevel of 416. When he got back from training he had a powerlevel of 5000. So hes 12x faster. Next he gets to 180000. making him 36x faster on that. So goku when he gets to namic is 1.72x the speed of light. Which matchs up with burter who said he can move at the speed of light, and goku is quicker. I would like to point out that he could easily do 20x Kaioken when he got to namic. So if goku could turn ssj3 when he got to namic he would be 50x50x50 = 125000x faster then light. You can just Imagine how fast he would be when he is fighting frezia or even cell. People have also said that Superman heat vision would hurt Goku... But his heat vision is just a laser.. Goku can move faster then light so how can it hit him?
h ttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9641/05106ha6.gif (wont let me post links yet just delete the space between the h and t.)
Debunked this a few pages ago.
The reason why goku could take hits from Supes.
Master Roshi could vaporise the moon. Kid buu who is stronger then King Piccol, Piccol jr, Radiz, Frezia, Cell and Fat Buu (who in that order makes the one in front of them look like nothing). Now when Kid buu sent a Kamehameha wave towards SSJ3 Goku, Goku shook it off like it was nothing, (and then release his own kamehameha that vaporise buu) and that was not even Goku strongest form.
Yet that attack barely created a 10 - foot crater in the ground.
Just to remind you cell could destroy a solorsystem with a kamehameha
He was bluffing. There's absolutely nothing to substantiate his statement.
- Notice Goku was not huffing and puffing like some people said.
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/406/420810ig1.gif http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1390/420811es5.gif
If that attack could have destroyed a planet, Mr. Satan wouldn't have been sitting a few hundred meters away unharmed.
People weaker and slower then Goku have showen to be able to do normal things at super speed.
That throws out the claim that they can't be fast while talking. (someone said cell had enough time to say something before goku release his warp kamehameha wave on him)
Absolutely idiotic. Krillin and Roshi didn't say anything during that exchange, and voices only move at the speed of sound. How can sound move faster than sound?
This Explain the speed that the Gyniu force has.
Goku beat them with no Kaio Ken and no powering up. This is before he reach the first SuperSaiyan level
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4008/db23116zt8.jpg http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7351/db23117ze0.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9182/db23120rd9.jpg http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4532/db23121ar7.jpg
The Ginyu Force's speed is completely unquantifiable. All we know is that they were faster than Gohan and Krillin.
Some people say Goku could not stand up to a nuke.
This explosion from Piccol is far more powerful then then a nuke (the entire city was either blown away or vaporised) - This was way back in Dragon ball. (no z)
That's less than a megaton nuke. Besides, you're ignoring the radiation.
Some people say Goku is weak because he can not push a planet
Goku strenght is not in his muscles it is in his ki. Goku would just go through the planet if he pushed on it.
Prove it. No one in DBZ has demonstrated physical strength anywhere near that level.
Supes has the ability to extend his biofield around a object when he grabs it. (he uses it on large objects like planets or huge ships) If Goku fire a Kamehameha wave at the planet and the planet held up it would defently move (with the power to destroy a entire solorsystem and some in that Kamehameha).
Complete and utter lie.
Look at the size of Vegetas attack then he did on cell - This is the one that he suddenly directed all the energy down to a small spot against cell.
He redirected it into space.
Some people say Goku needs alot of time to transform or powerup a attack
Here is Goku transforming to SSJ3 before Superbuu can attack(He can always powerup even more if he has too)
There are no canon states beyond SSJ3. Stop lying.
Goku has can also powerup while fighting he does not have to sit still.
Irrelevant.
Supers looses heaps of power when he is hit by powerful attacks
Wonderwoman is a weakling compared to Goku and Supes.
Lie. With her equipment and the godwave she is stronger than Superman, and in base form she is faster and stronger than Goku.
She manage to weaken Supes enought so he could rescue his friends quickly. Can you imagine Goku hits. He could output solor system attack that would do a tremedies amout of damage.
No one in DBZ has ever destroyed more than a planet.
These are the pics that I saw Wonderwoman weakening Supes.
She helped lift the Spectre. It's not surprising.
[quote]Supes has never showen to be as powerful as Goku
He could barly vaporise a bunch of weak doomsday clones that even Batman could kill.
Using advanced technology.
Here is Supes saying he couldn't vaporise them again.
He was weakened. Stop using low showings and PIS to define a character.
Some people say Supes can't travel fast in earth atmosphere because would cause too much destruction.
Supes himself said he could move while supressing sonic booms.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/3640/024qb9.jpg
Here he is moving really fast without any atmospheric chaos
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8475/supespeed6ktloisaskssupxy6.jpg
And your point is?
Some people say Supes is faster
Supes has never been able to instantly get to top speed like the Z fighter do. Even at his top speed his effect on the enviroment isnt much diffrent from denda (who is one of the weakest namics)
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/9101/0869a916yt.jpg http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1664/db29112qh6.gif
Superman fought Darkseid to the sun in the time it took to say a few sentences. DBZ characters are not even 1% of lightspeed and take hours to fly someone else on the same planet.
Some people say that Goku can not be as strong as his ssj3 self (when fighting kid buu) in his normal form at the end of dbz (10 years after fighting buu)
Those would be called sane people.
Goku muiltiply his strenght every year.
Prove it.
We have seen Goku go from a powerlevel of 5000 to a powerlevel of 180000. Thats 36 times stronger. That strenght increase was within 7 days while training in the space ship with the gravity machine (on the way to namic)
That was also because he was about to attain SSJ1. There are no more states after SSJ3.
Now if goku was only to get 3.3x stronger a year for 10 years he would become 3.3^10= 153157.8986x stronger. Which is stronger then him turning ssj3 (50^3=125000) at the time he though buu.
Not this shite again. Your numbers are rectally derived.
Enough with the copy and paste crap
Originally posted by Gplex
You seem smarter then the other guy... but you do know what I mean... the speed of the bullet doesnt matter because we are using the speed of sound (even thought the bullet is faster)
And then you start multiplying things by 60 instead of using 1/60th of a second and taking the distance, or factoring in human optics.
Originally posted by Gplex
So what you are saying that he muitiply his strenght through out the entire dragonball series then suddenly over those 10 years he just stops... never gets stronger... You are kidding me right?
If there's no evidence for it, you can't assume it. Groundless extrapolation is meaningless.
Okay, I'm going to issue a challenge.
If you're so confident your numbers are correct, then post scans of Goku (or any DBZ character, for that matter) actually doing something which is in line with your predictions. I mean something that your numbers suggest they could do.
Otherwise, the whole thing is just groundless speculation and extrapolation based on arbitrary numbers.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Wrong burden of proof is on your shoulders to prove your claims right. You don't make a claim and then say "prove me wrong" thats the burden of proof fallacy.
first if 50 it it logical to think that the second is 50 and the 3rd is 50. For you to try to ignor the other 2 ssj2 levels is completly rediculess
He went from 5000 to 180000 meaning he went up 36 times
No. 180,000 was not Goku's base power when he landed on Namek. He was using Kaioken to reach that powerlevel. His full powerlevel against Vegeta using Kaioken x 3 was 24,000. That's 7.5 times bigger powerlevel.
Added to that he had just recovered from a big injury so the increase wasn't solely from his week under 100 times gravity.
500x earth gravity is huge for someone who can change to SSj3.
Lets put a few facts down (^ means “to the power” ) Earth mass = 5.98x10^27, Suns mass = 1.989x10^33, black hole = 3.978x10^39 (Most info from http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/...ve/smblack.html & http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~jatila...dispersion.html)
A normal blackhole is around 2 million solor masses, a solor mass is the mass of our sun. (3.978x10^39)/(5.98x10^27) = 665217391300. A black hole gravity is 665217391300x earth gravity. We know that Goku can move with ease in around 500x earth gravity in normal form. Goku is able to move with ease in 500x50x50x50 = 62500000x earth gravity. 665217391300/62500000 = 10643.49 . Goku would need to be 10643.49x stronger then he was before fighting kid buu, to stand on the surface of a blackhole without even trying. Goku appeared to be as strong as kid buu at the end of dbz in his normal form (he would only need to become 3.3x stronger a year to supass ssj3 power in his normal form), making Goku 50x50x50= 125000x stronger which is more then enough to stand on a black hole with ease.
SSJ transformations don't give a 50 times stat modifier. Otherwise why was a SSJ 2 slightly below Fat Buu but a SSJ 3 slightly above him?
The reason why Goku is faster
Goku as a kid could dodge bullets. (picture below) So at this point he could move faster then 340m/s. This is when he met Krillin. At the first tournament Krillin could follow Goku. At the second Krillin couldn't see him move so he had to be at lease 60x faster. Now tein was at one of those one and he could follow Goku movements. At the next tournament Goku move so fast that tein couldn't see him. So again he must be around 60x faster. 340x60x60 = 1224000m/s which is around 0.4% of the speed of light. Now Goku had a powerlevel of 416. When he got back from training he had a powerlevel of 5000. So hes 12x faster. Next he gets to 180000. making him 36x faster on that. So goku when he gets to namic is 1.72x the speed of light. Which matchs up with burter who said he can move at the speed of light, and goku is quicker. I would like to point out that he could easily do 20x Kaioken when he got to namic. So if goku could turn ssj3 when he got to namic he would be 50x50x50 = 125000x faster then light. You can just Imagine how fast he would be when he is fighting frezia or even cell. People have also said that Superman heat vision would hurt Goku... But his heat vision is just a laser.. Goku can move faster then light so how can it hit him?
h ttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9641/05106ha6.gif (wont let me post links yet just delete the space between the h and t.)
Well lets just ignore that I've disproved how big an increase in powerlevel the transformations are and the other have disproved that power level is a linear scale. Superman flew from the vega star system to Earth in a few minutes. We'll say 2. The vega system is 25 light years away. Which gives him a speed of 6,587,222 times the speed of light. Superman has also flown to the centre of the galaxy in a few minutes as well. 26,000 light years away. Which would make him billions of times the speed of light. Notice this is based on stuff that has actually happened not on extrapolations.
Wonderwoman is a weakling compared to Goku and Supes. She manage to weaken Supes enought so he could rescue his friends quickly. Can you imagine Goku hits. He could output solor system attack that would do a tremedies amout of damage.
These are the pics that I saw Wonderwoman weakening Supes.
Wonder woman has the strength of Gaia. She has said she can move the Earth and seeing as she can't lie I'll believe her. She easily stopped a mountain sized Asteroid and has helped Superman lift the weight of eternity. She is much more physically strong than Goku.
Superman has recovered his strength in a mere fraction of a second after having all is energy drained by red solar energy.
Supes has never been able to instantly get to top speed like the Z fighter do. Even at his top speed his effect on the enviroment isnt much diffrent from denda (who is one of the weakest namics)
Lois was shot while reporting in the middle east. Superman who was in America reacted and caught her before she fell. That blows any Z speed feat out of the water.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
No. 180,000 was not Goku's base power when he landed on Namek. He was using Kaioken to reach that powerlevel. His full powerlevel against Vegeta using Kaioken x 3 was 24,000. That's 7.5 times bigger powerlevel.Added to that he had just recovered from a big injury so the increase wasn't solely from his week under 100 times gravity.
SSJ transformations don't give a 50 times stat modifier. Otherwise why was a SSJ 2 slightly below Fat Buu but a SSJ 3 slightly above him?
Well lets just ignore that I've disproved how big an increase in powerlevel the transformations are and the other have disproved that power level is a linear scale. Superman flew from the vega star system to Earth in a few minutes. We'll say 2. The vega system is 25 light years away. Which gives him a speed of 6,587,222 times the speed of light. Superman has also flown to the centre of the galaxy in a few minutes as well. 26,000 light years away. Which would make him billions of times the speed of light. Notice this is based on stuff that has actually happened not on extrapolations.
Wonder woman has the strength of Gaia. She has said she can move the Earth and seeing as she can't lie I'll believe her. She easily stopped a mountain sized Asteroid and has helped Superman lift the weight of eternity. She is much more physically strong than Goku.
Superman has recovered his strength in a mere fraction of a second after having all is energy drained by red solar energy.
Lois was shot while reporting in the middle east. Superman who was in America reacted and caught her before she fell. That blows any Z speed feat out of the water.
true true..
How do you know ssj2 is not 50x?
Vegeta could pount buu pretty good... and ssj3 goku completely owned fat buu.
Superman has never though at super high speed looking to where you go then flying there is not fighting...
Goku strenght doesnt lie in his muscels its in his ki. If you took that away from him he would be just as vonerable as the rest of us.
Originally posted by Gplex
first if 50 it it logical to think that the second is 50 and the 3rd is 50. For you to try to ignor the other 2 ssj2 levels is completly rediculess
No it's not. They are different cases, just because one case is one way, doesn't mean every case would be. Besides, you're ignoring the fact that different SSJ1 characters had different levels of power
Originally posted by Gplex
true true..How do you know ssj2 is not 50x?
Burden of proof is on you to prove it is.
Vegeta could pount buu pretty good... and ssj3 goku completely owned fat buu.
No he didn't. In fact Buu had the advantage until Trunks got the radar and Goku IT'd away.
Superman has never though at super high speed looking to where you go then flying there is not fighting...
Yes he has. Look in his respect thread.
Goku strenght doesnt lie in his muscels its in his ki. If you took that away from him he would be just as vonerable as the rest of us.
Since Superman can absorb energy, he could perhaps do just that
How do you know ssj2 is not 50x?
SSJ 2 seemed to give after power up. I'd say about 5 to 10 times going SSJ 2 gohan versus Cell.
Goku strenght doesnt lie in his muscels its in his ki. If you took that away from him he would be just as vonerable as the rest of us.
Even so Goku still has not shown physical attacks using his Ki to empower himself or not which rivals Superman. Also Even with barely above human Ki Goku could take bullets and lift a car.
Also if it's not about muscle strength why does so much of Goku's training involve strength training? While piccolo could train simply by mediation it appears weight lifting is just as effective.
Since Superman can absorb energy, he could perhaps do just that
Good point. Superman has absorbed various other kinds of energy other than solar radiation. Anti photons, geothermal and even bio energy from Rampage. He drained that straight out of her.
Galvaclaw, if you are going to be dealing with this guy's bullshit, here's a tip: Keep in mind that you could do the same kind of dishonest number crunching and apply it to the Superman side. Take a feat from 15 years ago, compare it to a feat from 10 years ago, find the difference, get an exponential scale factor, and then say he's a bajillion times more powerful.
It's dishonest and fallacious, and not a valid argument.
Galvaclaw, if you are going to be dealing with this guy's bullshit, here's a tip: Keep in mind that you could do the same kind of dishonest number crunching and apply it to the Superman side. Take a feat from 15 years ago, compare it to a feat from 10 years ago, find the difference, get an exponential scale factor, and then say he's a bajillion times more powerful.
I've seen someone do it with Superman prime and 'proved' that he could destroy all existence with a gesture.
I'll have a go. 1986: Superman struggles with 100 tons. 1998: Superman turns the endless wheels of Maggedon a machine the size of a solar system. I'll give them a conservative estimate as the mass of the sun though it's likely much more. 1.9891 ×10 ^1030 kg. 1
That's and increase of 1.9891×10 ^1025 over 12 years real time. though it's much less in comic time. But that gives an increase of 1.67×10 ^1024 times per year. Superman took a Supernova class blast in 1987. That means he can take 3.315×10 ^1025 Super Novae today. Awesome.
It's dishonest and fallacious, and not a valid argument.
True, but I have hope for this one. I tried the same thing against Superman once. Although admittedly the highest I could extrapolate SSJ 3 Goku's strength up to was a few billion tons.
I have to go to work, but there is flaw in your opinion.
Dragon ball is a lineal story writed by the same author. that is why the argument of canon powerlevels are valid.
Superman is writed by many authors, you have many versions of superman, in one history Doomsday broke his arm and in other He beat Doomsday. when Superman fought his future self, suposdsedly stronger than younger version, they draw, logic in Dc is mess too.
Superman don´t increase exponentially like Goku.
Is not dishonets is what Toriyama wroted. Goku trianing with Roshi=get stronger, Training with Karin= get stronger, Training with Kami= getting stronger, Training With King Kai= Getting Stronger, so on so on
You are so superior in your opinion that you are Saying that The characters don´t grow in power when the whole DB history is about train and get stronger.
It was a superman Fan who start this thread. Now you want to close it because you don´t like other opinions? what arrogance.
And base in canon Superman, Superman prime is not canon.
