Dooku's Skill · Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Captain REX
The movies outweigh Lucas' opinion or intentions? Wow, you're an idiot.

You can't actually argue against my point or my evidence, so you insult me. How very professional of you.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Your evidence is false.

False? false?! How is it false? It is a scene written by George Lucas, filmed by Irving Kirshner starring Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher that was ultimately cut from the movie. The fact it was cut from the movie does not make it false! It's already been agreed upon that directors work from the scripts a writer provides, and that was provided by Lucas! Regardless of what his intentions or opinions might have been, Lucas wrote that scene. It was not however in the final cut of the movie, so that shows that the movie outweighed his original ireason for writing the scene (to show Luke's attraction to Leia in no uncertain terms)

Originally posted by Captain REX
If you don't care about what George says, then you're at least going against KMC's policy on Star Wars canon.

KMC's policy on canon is flawed because of the evidence I provided that shows Lucas' intention as a writer can be overrulled by the final movie. How many pieces of evidence do I have to provide until that fact is acknowledged? A single piece of evidence can get a criminal sent to the electric chair, so if that's good enough for the courts, then it should certainly be good enough for proving a point in a debate.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Not that hard to comprehend.

It's not hard to comprehend that scene, people are just refusing to because of the distastefull issues it raises.

Originally posted by Captain REX
George's intentions, in the case of Star Wars, have everything to do with it. Your artwork is entirely different.

How is it any different? Lucas and myself are both artists. His final piece was Star Wars, my final piece was a painting. My painting did not turn out as I intended. Star Wars (specifically ESB) did not turn out as Lucas intended (as that scene proved)

Originally posted by Captain REX
And we understood what you wrote. You're just wrong in every sense of the word...

How can I be wrong? Are you saying that I somehow managed to fake the clip?? As I said above, it is a scene written by George Lucas, filmed by Irving Kirshner starring Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher that was ultimately cut from the movie. The fact it was cut from the movie does not make it false. It's not hard to comprehend that scene, people are just refusing to because of the distastefull issues it raises.
[Edit for SPAG]

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Excuse ME, DV, but you continually posting the same post IS nonsense spam. No debate. That is what it is and it will stop, clear? Don't even think about arguing that any more, and for doing so, this is now an official warning. Keep on arguing that, or spamming more, and it will be a ban.
I do understand what you say. I simply think- as do most here- you are entirely wrong.
This board has a policy of ending debates that drag on pointlessly when objective answers are apparently available. GL's comments are one such source of answers. Just because YOU think the film contradicts GL... well, that counts for nothing. It's just your opinion. Other people's opinion of what that part of the film means differs. When this sort of thing occurs, GL is ultimate referee and arbitrator. Hence- your opinion becomes irrrelevant.
Move on from this one, DV. You are not going to get anywhere, and carry on like this and you simply aren't going to be here.

Please see my above comment to Rex,as it covers everything and explains why it is not wrong. You did not respond to any of the points I raised in defending my point, so I see no reason why I should respond to yours.
If it was considered debate for Escape to keep pasting the same piece of text with no further explanantion to illustrate their point, then it can also be considered debate for me to post the same clip to illustrate mine.
If you want to close the debate, close it, I really couldn't care less as I know that I am correct, and the Skywalker fanboys are wrong. As for you saying that I cannot use evidence to prove my point (because you don't agree with it) that is just facism and goes against something we have here in the UK (and the US) called Free Speech. Something Nick Griffin and Mark Collett are in court today to protect from censorship.
[Edit for SGAP]

Escape81 Restricted

The difference is, my message had a point. Yours was trying to dismiss and undermine Lucas as a canon source. Which ultimately failed. As I told you before, quit trying to argue with the words from the highest authority. You've got absolutely "zero" ground with it.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
The difference is, my message had a point. Yours was trying to dismiss and undermine Lucas as a canon source.

That was the point of my message, so my message, like yours had a point.

Originally posted by Escape81
Which ultimately failed.

Why did it fail? Because no one wanted to accept the evidence presented? As I said to Rex, it was not a clip that I made up, infact, I only found it a couple of days ago, but that does not change the fact that a) Lucas wrote it and b) that it was cut from the final movie.

Originally posted by Escape81
You've got absolutely "zero" ground with it.

Same answer as above. Do you deny that Lucas wrote the scene? Do you deny that it was Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher? Do you deny that Irving Kirshner directed it? If you do, then by all means, explain to me why, because I would really like to know.

Escape81 Restricted

That has no bearing at all. A lot of crap that Lucas writes is cut from the movie. Essentially, that's what all the pretty "deleted scenes" are. And, still, on everything else (whether it is directed by another person or not) - is still ultimately up to him. He is the writer. Thus, he knows even more about the plot and such than even the director.

Point moot. Quit arguing against canon policy. Lucas > the movies, and everything else related to Star Wars.

Never thought you'd be so desperate as to argue against canon policy . . .

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
That has no bearing at all. A lot of crap that Lucas writes is cut from the movie. Essentially, that's what all the pretty "deleted scenes" are.

Yes, but, he still wrote them, so the actions of those scenes was something he as a writer intended to happen. Even if the scene was cut, all that shows is that the final film overrulled his intention for that scene.

Originally posted by Escape81
T, still, on everything else (whether it is directed by another person or not) - is still ultimately up to him. He is the writer. Thus, he knows even more about the plot and such than even the director.

Indeed. But, ultimately, Lucas did not direct or edit ESB, so his only contributions were as a writer and producer.

Originally posted by Escape81
Point moot.

The point is not moot at all. You just don't like (and can't accept) the fact that I have been able to prove that the films are a higher level of canon than Lucas.

Originally posted by Escape81
Never thought you'd be so desperate as to argue against canon policy . . .

Policies can be wrong. Policies can be ammended. I'm not saying that the policy here will be ammended, infact, I'm sure that it won't be. However, that does not change the fact that I've been able to provide evidence that a final SW movie was completed in a different manner to how Lucas originally wrote it:ergo Movies are the highest level of canon.

Escape81 Restricted

Ergo, no they are not.

Lightsnake Senior Member

The policy is the policy, it's the official LFL company policy...good God, Vious is trying to say the policy is wong when it doesn't support him

Escape81 Restricted

Fact: Two moderators came and told you, Vious, that George Lucas's commentaries, statements, and beliefs regarding "in-universe" ordeals and situations is absolute canon, such is LFL's policy.

Fact: Lucas's RotS commentary, the official screenplay, and the novelization - as well as Palpatine's quote in RotS both support the idea that Count Dooku was simply bested because Anakin was better.

Speaking of which. According to you, Yoda's quote in ESB is indisputable. Rofl. The same thing applies to Palpatine, then, which proves that Anakin > Dooku in power.

Fact: You have no proof but a couple of screenshots - opening as an interpretation of the movie. Essentially, only your opinion.

Fact: I have more than an opinion.

Fact: You assume that you're disproving the entire LFL policy. It's policy. Policy is policy. Concrete. Lucas > the movies.

I'll post this on the relevent thread, too. Y'know, the "Dooku's Skills" one, just so you read it.

Jam-Jul_Lison Dark Jedi Master

First everyone read this carefully.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f38/t20461.html

Now here are two paragraphs on there that prove according to this site the films are the highest cannon.

This affirms the idea that only the things that GL himself directly created can count for canon. The rules that follow are awkward, but basically the films are the 'primary' canon and the books and others are 'secondary', in that you assume what they say is true unless they are contradicted by the films (like Owen Lars being Obi-Wan's brother, for example).

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences."

Escape81 Restricted

This affirms the idea that only the things that GL himself directly created can count for canon. The rules that follow are awkward, but basically the films are the 'primary' canon and the books and others are 'secondary', in that you assume what they say is true unless they are contradicted by the films (like Owen Lars being Obi-Wan's brother, for example).
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences."

"This affirms the idea that only the things that GL himself directly created can count for canon."

There you go. The only things that are truly canon are things that he created. So why the hell wouldn't his RotS commentary be canon since it describes what he intended it to be. He is the writer and director of the movie - thus his insight is automatically concrete as far as continuity and canonical issues are concerned - and to top it off, he's the creator of the entire franchise.

His opinion is absolute canon.

And, look at where it discusses "the novelizations". "Largely true to George Lucas's vision". The only reason they aren't canon is because he didn't have a direct hand in it.

Lucas is canon.

Ushgarak Paladin

First of all, GL has full editorial control over all his films- anyone with the slightest bit of SW knowledge knows that. HE cuts stuff from his films, and so therefore he is junking it. What he cuts from the films is NOT canon precisely because he junked it. But what he says about ther stuff he DOES put in the films is, quite obviously, absolute truth in the Star Wars universe. And as Escape says, GL's comments on his own films are basically much of a muchness with being in the films themselves.

Secondly- this is most certainly an end to it. This is not a canon debating thread, and before you start, there is never going to be such as thread either. There is just a way things work around here, and I have told you what it is.

So cut out your pompous self-pity, DV. You are just wrong, but you are sitll on that warning. SO you really better had stop. Argue with me any more, and you are gone. Clear? Good.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
"This affirms the idea that only the things that GL himself directly created can count for canon."
There you go. The only things that are truly canon are things that he created. So why the hell wouldn't his RotS commentary be canon since it describes what he intended it to be. He is the writer and director of the movie - thus his insight is automatically concrete as far as continuity and canonical issues are concerned - and to top it off, he's the creator of the entire franchise.
His opinion is absolute canon.
And, look at where it discusses "the novelizations". "Largely true to George Lucas's vision". The only reason they aren't canon is because he didn't have a direct hand in it.
Lucas is canon.

I notice that you deliberate excluded the first lines of Lison's post:

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
First everyone read this carefully.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f38/t20461.html
Now here are two paragraphs on there that prove according to this site the films are the highest cannon.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Ushgarak
First of all, GL has full editorial control over all his films- anyone with the slightest bit of SW knowledge knows that. HE cuts stuff from his films, and so therefore he is junking it. What he cuts from the films is NOT canon precisely because he junked it. But what he says about ther stuff he DOES put in the films is, quite obviously, absolute truth in the Star Wars universe. And as Escape says, GL's comments on his own films are basically much of a muchness with being in the films themselves.
Secondly- this is most certainly an end to it. This is not a canon debating thread, and before you start, there is never going to be such as thread either. There is just a way things work around here, and I have told you what it is.
So cut out your pompous self-pity, DV. You are just wrong, but you are sitll on that warning. SO you really better had stop. Argue with me any more, and you are gone. Clear? Good.

I enjoy the debating here because it is one of the few sites where SW is debated rather than worshipped. When debate occurs, there will be differences of opinion. I have continually proven my point through factual evidence, comparative example, and even other's comments.
I'm quite happy to let this drop, because I know that I am right, and you are just not prepared to accept that or change your policy. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me, is your threats to ban me simply for having an opinion which you do not agree with, because as I said above, there is such a think called Free Speech. In the interest of good relations, I will drop the issue, but do not think for a minute that my opinion a) has changed, or b) will change.

Captain REX Networking

Your evidence is false, however, so you're just throwing your weight around, and that's gets annoying. barker

What do you think this is, a democratic nation? If you're causing problems, we have every right to silence you. We're not changing our policy just because you provide reasons (that only make sense to you) that we should. It just doesn't work that way.

And if Jam's going to nitpick at our policy, the only thing we need to change is put GL's word up there with the movies, therefore matching LFL's policy.

And you're still wrong, whether you care or not. 😐

Ushgarak Paladin

No, I threatened to ban you for spamming the foruns- which you did- and then arguing with a moderator, both of which are bannable offences. You are not a martyr, you are not a hero defending his rights, you haven't proved a thing, and you are most certainly not correct.

Policy remains- GL's word is king.

BlaxicanTroller Restricted

Why doesn't thi thread just gte closed? Everything debateable about Dooku's skill has already been debated. So what the point of thsi thread other than to let the fanboys run..."rampant"?

Rampant ox Senior Member

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Why doesn't thi thread just gte closed? Everything debateable about Dooku's skill has already been debated. So what the point of thsi thread other than to let the fanboys run..."rampant"?

Hahahaha. Thats the funniest thing I have heard all day!!

Anyways I agree this thread should get closed. It is basically myself and other fanboys vs everyone else. We are never going to end the argument so everyone should just agree to disagree.

BlaxicanTroller Restricted

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hahahaha. Thats the funniest thing I have heard all day!!
Anyways I agree this thread should get closed. It is basically myself and other fanboys vs everyone else. We are never going to end the argument so everyone should just agree to disagree.

yeah lol, i was even thinkign of you whe nI thought of the word "rampant" it was only after I typed it that I realized the connection.

Archangelysses Senior Member

Vaapad or form VII if you prefer only ever had 3 exponents

Mace Windu (who happened to develop the form, which being a new type of lightsaber combat would definately place him as an extremely gifted swordsman as he was able to create and refine his own form rather than only becoming an exponent of someone else's)

Depa Billaba - His Padawan and protege, also unconscious/coma after fighting Windu (Shatterpoint novel) when she lost her sanity

Sora Bulq - Who abandoned the Jedi and switched to fight for the CIS

Dooku was an exceptional Jedi, and made more powerful by his knowledge of the darkside, however, force knowledge and lightsaber skill are 2 different things

"IT is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but rather our skill with a lightsaber" I believe was his comment to Yoda prior to the eagerly anticipated Yoda fight of ep II.