Dooku's Skill

Vious, stop spamming with that repeated nonsense.

What happens in films is sometimes unclear and open to interpretation. But when GL comments on such an issue, he tells you how it actually is. Like it or not, you have to live with it unless he changes his mind. That's how life works.

If GL says something about a facet of his movie, then people are entitled to say that he is silly, or that he should not have done it. But no-one has the slightest right to say he is wrong. It's his franchise, he can do what he likes with it, no matter what you think is logical or should have been so.

Let that be the end of it. What GL says is so.

Now let's move on please.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Vious, stop spamming with that repeated nonsense.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
What happens in films is sometimes unclear and open to interpretation. But when GL comments on such an issue, he tells you how it actually is. Like it or not, you have to live with it unless he changes his mind. That's how life works.

If GL says something about a facet of his movie, then people are entitled to say that he is silly, or that he should not have done it. But no-one has the slightest right to say he is wrong. It's his franchise, he can do what he likes with it, no matter what you think is logical or should have been so.

Let that be the end of it. What GL says is so.

Rofl. There you go. A second Moderator telling you the same thing.

You're the one spamming irrelevant points. Anakin won. Fair and square. He won the fight, not the sparring match.

Dooku had already served his purpose. Now Palpatine needed to wrap up some loose ends. So he stages the capture and tell Dooku he is to fight Anakin but not kill him. He is merely to test him and told him if he lost that he would step in. Palpatine knew that Anakin and Obi-Wan would most likly be sent so the trap is set. Palpatine knew Dooku did not stand a chance in a two on one fight and would tire out. Which as we saw happened. Anakin did beat Dooku but not through dueling. He beat him my grabbing his arm. Then came the true test. Palpatine's order to kill him. Killing an unarmed man is certainly something a jedi was not supposed to do. Anakin showed his loyalty and did as he was told. He knew if it looked like Anakin was the hero and rescued him he would have an excuse to put Anakin on the Jedi Council knowing they would still not make him a master. He knew Anakin well enough to know this would make Anakin doubt them. He figured the Jedi would ask Anakin to keep an eye on him creating more doubt in Anakin. He gave out the cordinates of Grevious's location so that the Jedi would send someone to kill him. He figured that the jedi would not send Anakin because of Anakin was supposed to keep an eye on him. He even suggested to Anakin that he should be sent knowing full well he would not be sent. Thus creating more distrust between Anakin and the Council. Then he later purposly gave Anakin hints that he was the Sith Lord. As he expected Anakin would be shocked at first and run off and tell whoever was left in the temple. His first hope was most likly that Anakin would come with Mace and the other strong ones but Anakin did not. Yet he figured Anakin would come sooner or later. So he quickly killed everyone except for Mace. He needed Mace alive. A fight broke out between the two. Palpatine held his own until he sensed Anakin approaching. He then let Mace defeat him knowing that Mace would try to kill him. Then as Anakin entered the room he saw Mace ready to kill Palpatine and Palpatine put on the pathetic old man act. He does this to give Anakin a choice. A choice that he could never take back. In the end anakin turns on Mace disarming him (Literly) and then Palpatine blast him with a crap load of force lightning eventualy sending him out the window. All had gone according to Palpatine's plan. He then had a legit reason to use order 66.

Then as a final test he sends Anakin with the troopers to kill everyone left in the Temple. After that is complete Palpatine has Anakin take out the remaining loose ends. Everything went as Palpatine planned it.

That's nice. How about this, though, since the script and commentary support it.

The Jedi Council are closing in on discovering the identity of Sidious, so Palpatine allows himself to be captured by General Grievous to halt their investigation - and begin the climax of the Clone Wars.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are sent in to rescue Chancellor Palpatine, who sees that the time may be ripe to test Anakin. Palpatine has become close to Anakin during the Clone Wars - his de facto "mentor" - and has observed that his intense potential and weak will may be exactly what he needs - as his ultimate apprentice.

But, Palpatine notes that "potential" is all well and good - but he isn't likely to reach it in the near future - so he decides to test his current level of skill, by pitting him against his current apprentice, Count Dooku - who is already an established duelist and capable Force user.

Palpatine's plan: Test Anakin. If he's able to overcome Count Dooku in battle, then he is strong enough to become his new apprentice. If Dooku defeats him however, Anakin will not yet be ready - and he either will be killed or Palpatine will have to wait a little longer before converting him.

Of course, Dooku would never accept this - so Palpatine deceives him into thinking that, should Dooku be beaten, Palpatine will use his powers as Supreme Chancellor to grant him amnesty. Of course, if Dooku is beaten, Palpatine will have Anakin kill him. After all, the Rule of Two is still in place.

So. Palpatine sets Dooku up against Anakin. Obviously, because this is a test - it would do no good for Dooku to be "faking" or for Dooku to be "holding back" - as this encounter ultimately determines Anakin's current level of strength.

So, they fight. Dooku is able to hold his own against Obi-Wan and Anakin (who is thinking like a Jedi - and not using his aggression). However, as the fight progresses, Obi-Wan and Dooku get tired - as Anakin, in contrast, becomes stronger. So, Dooku realizes that he has to take Obi-Wan out of the fight alltogether so that he may focus entirely on Anakin.

Dooku does this, and is forced back as Anakin begins to call upon his rage and anger. Dooku and Anakin fight a little while longer, before engaging in a saber lock. Dooku taunts Anakin, which inadvertantly has the effect of having Anakin call upon his rage and hatred. He does so, wins the saber lock - and begins forcing Dooku on the defensive, using his strength and speed to move Dooku across the room.

Anakin then sees an open advantage, grabs Dooku's arms, disarms him. He has Dooku at his mercy, and Palpatine observes Dooku's defeat. Anakin begins to calm down - but Palpatine orders Anakin to kill Dooku.

Dooku is shocked, under the impression that he was to be granted amnesty if he was defeated. Anakin initially refuses, but then is ultimately convinced to kill Dooku. Which he does.

In the end, yes, Palpatine's plan worked. He finally got his prized apprentice - and got rid of an outdated pawn. And, as Sidious - he later tells General Grievous (who is concerned that the CIS will fail), that he has: "a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful."

Which he gets.

Ultimately, the skill difference between Anakin in Dooku is not by much, and I do not dispute that Dooku may have superior Force powers than Anakin - but Anakin won, fair and square. If Dooku held back, it was not on Palpatine's orders.

Originally posted by Escape81
That's nice. How about this, though, since the script and commentary support it.

The Jedi Council are closing in on discovering the identity of Sidious, so Palpatine allows himself to be captured by General Grievous to halt their investigation - and begin the climax of the Clone Wars.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are sent in to rescue Chancellor Palpatine, who sees that the time may be ripe to test Anakin. Palpatine has become close to Anakin during the Clone Wars - his de facto "mentor" - and has observed that his intense potential and weak will may be exactly what he needs - as his ultimate apprentice.

But, Palpatine notes that "potential" is all well and good - but he isn't likely to reach it in the near future - so he decides to test his current level of skill, by pitting him against his current apprentice, Count Dooku - who is already an established duelist and capable Force user.

Palpatine's plan: Test Anakin. If he's able to overcome Count Dooku in battle, then he is strong enough to become his new apprentice. If Dooku defeats him however, Anakin will not yet be ready - and he either will be killed or Palpatine will have to wait a little longer before converting him.

Of course, Dooku would never accept this - so Palpatine deceives him into thinking that, should Dooku be beaten, Palpatine will use his powers as Supreme Chancellor to grant him amnesty. Of course, if Dooku is beaten, Palpatine will have Anakin kill him. After all, the Rule of Two is still in place.

So. Palpatine sets Dooku up against Anakin. Obviously, because this is a test - it would do no good for Dooku to be "faking" or for Dooku to be "holding back" - as this encounter ultimately determines Anakin's current level of strength.

So, they fight. Dooku is able to hold his own against Obi-Wan and Anakin (who is thinking like a Jedi - and not using his aggression). However, as the fight progresses, Obi-Wan and Dooku get tired - as Anakin, in contrast, becomes stronger. So, Dooku realizes that he has to take Obi-Wan out of the fight alltogether so that he may focus entirely on Anakin.

Dooku does this, and is forced back as Anakin begins to call upon his rage and anger. Dooku and Anakin fight a little while longer, before engaging in a saber lock. Dooku taunts Anakin, which inadvertantly has the effect of having Anakin call upon his rage and hatred. He does so, wins the saber lock - and begins forcing Dooku on the defensive, using his strength and speed to move Dooku across the room.

Anakin then sees an open advantage, grabs Dooku's arms, disarms him. He has Dooku at his mercy, and Palpatine observes Dooku's defeat. Anakin begins to calm down - but Palpatine orders Anakin to kill Dooku.

Dooku is shocked, under the impression that he was to be granted amnesty if he was defeated. Anakin initially refuses, but then is ultimately convinced to kill Dooku. Which he does.

In the end, yes, Palpatine's plan worked. He finally got his prized apprentice - and got rid of an outdated pawn. And, as Sidious - he later tells General Grievous (who is concerned that the CIS will fail), that he has: "a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful."

Which he gets.

Ultimately, the skill difference between Anakin in Dooku is not by much, and I do not dispute that Dooku may have superior Force powers than Anakin - but Anakin won, fair and square. If Dooku held back, it was not on Palpatine's orders.

Dooku was trying lure Anakin to the dark side. He even told him of his anger and the way he never used it. It was in the movie. If you say thats bullshit you are sorry indeed.

Originally posted by Escape81
That's nice. How about this, though, since the script and commentary support it.

The Jedi Council are closing in on discovering the identity of Sidious, so Palpatine allows himself to be captured by General Grievous to halt their investigation - and begin the climax of the Clone Wars.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are sent in to rescue Chancellor Palpatine, who sees that the time may be ripe to test Anakin. Palpatine has become close to Anakin during the Clone Wars - his de facto "mentor" - and has observed that his intense potential and weak will may be exactly what he needs - as his ultimate apprentice.

But, Palpatine notes that "potential" is all well and good - but he isn't likely to reach it in the near future - so he decides to test his current level of skill, by pitting him against his current apprentice, Count Dooku - who is already an established duelist and capable Force user.

Palpatine's plan: Test Anakin. If he's able to overcome Count Dooku in battle, then he is strong enough to become his new apprentice. If Dooku defeats him however, Anakin will not yet be ready - and he either will be killed or Palpatine will have to wait a little longer before converting him.

Of course, Dooku would never accept this - so Palpatine deceives him into thinking that, should Dooku be beaten, Palpatine will use his powers as Supreme Chancellor to grant him amnesty. Of course, if Dooku is beaten, Palpatine will have Anakin kill him. After all, the Rule of Two is still in place.

So. Palpatine sets Dooku up against Anakin. Obviously, because this is a test - it would do no good for Dooku to be "faking" or for Dooku to be "holding back" - as this encounter ultimately determines Anakin's current level of strength.

So, they fight. Dooku is able to hold his own against Obi-Wan and Anakin (who is thinking like a Jedi - and not using his aggression). However, as the fight progresses, Obi-Wan and Dooku get tired - as Anakin, in contrast, becomes stronger. So, Dooku realizes that he has to take Obi-Wan out of the fight alltogether so that he may focus entirely on Anakin.

Dooku does this, and is forced back as Anakin begins to call upon his rage and anger. Dooku and Anakin fight a little while longer, before engaging in a saber lock. Dooku taunts Anakin, which inadvertantly has the effect of having Anakin call upon his rage and hatred. He does so, wins the saber lock - and begins forcing Dooku on the defensive, using his strength and speed to move Dooku across the room.

Anakin then sees an open advantage, grabs Dooku's arms, disarms him. He has Dooku at his mercy, and Palpatine observes Dooku's defeat. Anakin begins to calm down - but Palpatine orders Anakin to kill Dooku.

Dooku is shocked, under the impression that he was to be granted amnesty if he was defeated. Anakin initially refuses, but then is ultimately convinced to kill Dooku. Which he does.

In the end, yes, Palpatine's plan worked. He finally got his prized apprentice - and got rid of an outdated pawn. And, as Sidious - he later tells General Grievous (who is concerned that the CIS will fail), that he has: "a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful."

Which he gets.

Ultimately, the skill difference between Anakin in Dooku is not by much, and I do not dispute that Dooku may have superior Force powers than Anakin - but Anakin won, fair and square. If Dooku held back, it was not on Palpatine's orders.

Damn Escape 81. I give you lot of credit man, you provide page after page after page of proof and reasoning, and these fanboys still pretend liek you never said anything. You ,my freind, are a soldier.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Damn Escape 81. I give you lot of credit man, you provide page after page after page of proof and reasoning, and these fanboys still pretend liek you never said anything. You ,my freind, are a soldier.

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Dooku was trying lure Anakin to the dark side. He even told him of his anger and the way he never used it. It was in the movie. If you say thats bullshit you are sorry indeed.

Ah, for this "Sith General" thing, eh? Amazing how Count Dooku refused to train Ventress in the Sith-ways because it defied Darth Bane's Rule of Two. Just how logically did he think there, eh?

Now, I won't be unfair with you. That is a possibility, considering LoE and the novelization supports that theory. But both also state different things regarding the duel.

In LoE, Sidious instructs Dooku to "make the fight seem real". And in the novelization, Dooku initially toys with Kenobi and Anakin - but ultimately is forced to fight, all out, when he discovers that they tricked him into thinking that they were swordsmen of a lesser calibre. The novelization also states that Dooku is "barely able" to render Kenobi unconscious - and that, when Anakin uses his hate, that "Dooku is already dead. The rest is just details".

You have two conflicting sources of information. Especially when it is a fact that Palpatine was testing Anakin during the duel. None of you - Ox, Vious, or yourself - have addressed the issue of how Palpatine's test could have been "real" or "accurate", if Dooku was instructed to hold back.

When you do that, we'll progress.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Agreed.I envy your patience,Escape.You held out longer than I did when it came to that. 😉

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Damn Escape 81. I give you lot of credit man, you provide page after page after page of proof and reasoning, and these fanboys still pretend liek you never said anything. You ,my freind, are a soldier.

Thanks.

But in all fairness, I've lost my cool against Vious, Rampant Ox, and Pyro. I have no problem with personal biases. Rampant has always been upfront with his "fanboyism" which I respect. Pyro and Vious, not so much, but both of them think Count Dooku is god (at least compared to Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Mace, and Palpatine).

Still. I shouldn't have been so antagonistic. But the support is welcomed.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Excuse me, but it it not nonsense, but proof that finished movies outweigh Lucas' opinion or intentions as canon. I will stop posting it when Escape accepts that the finished movies outweigh Lucas' opinion or intentions, as proven by that cut scene from ESB. If you want to try and be a moderator, then do something about Overlord, who is spamming the board by not engaging in the debates. Or Escape who is spamming the board with their refusal to accept the evidence I posted to prove my point.

What Lucas says is not so compared to the finished movie. I have posted the clip as proof of that. I have also posted pictures of my own artwork as evidence to prove that an artist's intentions, motivations or opinions are irrelevent compared to the final outcome of their work. Perhaps if people were to actually read and understand what I wrote, then you would think twice before accusing me of spamming the board

The movies outweigh Lucas' opinion or intentions? Wow, you're an idiot. You're going to posting your spam until you get busted for it, then. Your evidence is false. If you don't care about what George says, then you're at least going against KMC's policy on Star Wars canon. What Lucas says, goes. Not that hard to comprehend.

George's intentions, in the case of Star Wars, have everything to do with it. Your artwork is entirely different.

And we understood what you wrote. You're just wrong in every sense of the word...

Originally posted by Escape81
Ah, for this "Sith General" thing, eh? Amazing how Count Dooku refused to train Ventress in the Sith-ways because it defied Darth Bane's Rule of Two. Just how logically did he think there, eh?

Now, I won't be unfair with you. That is a possibility, considering LoE and the novelization supports that theory. But both also state different things regarding the duel.

In LoE, Sidious instructs Dooku to "make the fight seem real". And in the novelization, Dooku initially toys with Kenobi and Anakin - but ultimately is forced to fight, all out, when he discovers that they tricked him into thinking that they were swordsmen of a lesser calibre. The novelization also states that Dooku is "barely able" to render Kenobi unconscious - and that, when Anakin uses his hate, that "Dooku is already dead. The rest is just details".

You have two conflicting sources of information. Especially when it is a fact that Palpatine was testing Anakin during the duel. None of you - Ox, Vious, or yourself - have addressed the issue of how Palpatine's test could have been "real" or "accurate", if Dooku was instructed to hold back.

When you do that, we'll progress.

Palpatine's motives I am afraid are still unbeknownst to anyone. The fact that Dooku was suprised is present. When he gets his hands chopped off. The main reason I feel Dooku was holding back was, because of the fact that he spent his entire life mastering a form which uses on hand. In many sequences in ROTS he is seen holding his sword with both hands and then one again. He was also grinning throughout the duel, as if there was a bigger matter at hand. Dooku wasn't really being overpowered by Skywalker, seeing as how he forced him to step back in the swordlock after he was kicked from the platform and he also managed to hold of Skywalker in a swordlock again with one hand. Can the novel be called canon? There are situations that contradict the film itself, and as seen between the little scuffle between Vious and Rex the Movies are the true source of canon next to GL's word. I admit I like Dooku better than most characters aside from Yoda( who would tool Dooku). I don't completely hate Skywalker. I feel he would kill Windu in a duel. The fact is that I am getting wound up over fictional events and associate myself with idiots. I once used to debate in a smart manner. I hope to do so again...

Originally posted by Escape81
Thanks.

I've lost my cool against Vious, Rampant Ox, and Pyro. I have no problem with personal biases. Rampant has always been upfront with his "fanboyism" which I respect.

Anyway i cant be bothered arguing anymore and im sure everyone else agrees. Lets all just agree to disagree and get on with our lives...

Excuse ME, DV, but you continually posting the same post IS nonsense spam. No debate. That is what it is and it will stop, clear? Don't even think about arguing that any more, and for doing so, this is now an official warning. Keep on arguing that, or spamming more, and it will be a ban.

I do understand what you say. I simply think- as do most here- you are entirely wrong.

This board has a policy of ending debates that drag on pointlessly when objective answers are apparently available. GL's comments are one such source of answers. Just because YOU think the film contradicts GL... well, that counts for nothing. It's just your opinion. Other people's opinion of what that part of the film means differs. When this sort of thing occurs, GL is ultimate referee and arbitrator. Hence- your opinion becomes irrrelevant.

Move on from this one, DV. You are not going to get anywhere, and carry on like this and you simply aren't going to be here.

Originally posted by Captain REX
The movies outweigh Lucas' opinion or intentions? Wow, you're an idiot. You're going to posting your spam until you get busted for it, then. Your evidence is false. If you don't care about what George says, then you're at least going against KMC's policy on Star Wars canon. What Lucas says, goes. Not that hard to comprehend.

George's intentions, in the case of Star Wars, have everything to do with it. Your artwork is entirely different.

And we understood what you wrote. You're just wrong in every sense of the word...

The REX has spoken. REX's words ae the most cannon thing in any debate. hell, even GL had to go to REX when he had problems with his saga. REX, you are so fine. 💃

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Excuse ME, DV, but you continually posting the same post IS nonsense spam. No debate. That is what it is and it will stop, clear? Don't even think about arguing that any more, and for doing so, this is now an official warning. Keep on arguing that, or spamming more, and it will be a ban.

I do understand what you say. I simply think- as do most here- you are entirely wrong.

This board has a policy of ending debates that drag on pointlessly when objective answers are apparently available. GL's comments are one such source of answers. Just because YOU think the film contradicts GL... well, that counts for nothing. It's just your opinion. Other people's opinion of what that part of the film means differs. When this sort of thing occurs, GL is ultimate referee and arbitrator. Hence- your opinion becomes irrrelevant.

Move on from this one, DV. You are not going to get anywhere, and carry on like this and you simply aren't going to be here.

Excuse but isn't the point of the forums to share opinions? I in no way condone Vious' action though...

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
The REX has spoken. REX's words ae the most cannon thing in any debate. hell, even GL had to go to REX when he had problems with his saga. REX, you are so fine. 💃

It's true, you know. diva

And yes, Pyro, of course that's the point of a forum. However...if it starts to turn into a problem just because someone's opinion is wrong and yet they keep arguing it, then we can step in.

Originally posted by Captain REX
It's true, you know. diva

And yes, Pyro, of course that's the point of a forum. However...if it starts to turn into a problem just because someone's opinion is wrong and yet they keep arguing it, then we can step in.

You Irish Bastard.

I'm irish btw...

Vious: "then do something about Overlord, who is spamming the board by not engaging in the debates"

OMGWTFBBQ!!! ROFLCOPTER ROFLCOPTER ROFLCOPTER!! I spam because I don't take the time to reflect on pointless theories and arguments to take hours to keep explaining what errors people make! That makes so much sense!
What's next? Banning me for not saying anything? *LOL'ing terribly at thou*

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Excuse but isn't the point of the forums to share opinions? I in no way condone Vious' action though...