Dooku's Skill · Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe

Lord Saboteur Utinni!

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thankyou. 😄
Basically the Count could have won at the beginnig had he gone all out. He did manage to hold them both off with ease and had many opportunities to kill Anakin. But he decided to taunt instead of fight properly - causing Anakin to bacome to powerful for even the mighty Count to handle. At the end Dooku had basically dug himself a hole which he couldnt get out of. He should have just killed Anakin at the beginning of the battle but instead decided to make Anakin stronger. His arrogance was his downfall - not the skill of Skywalker.

I do remember Anakin having a chance to kill Dooku at the start of the battle, funny. I'd agree if you said that Dooku has better Force control than Anakin, but in saber skills I'm going to put it in doubt. Nothing has ever said that Dooku was holding back the entire fight, he'd been played into thinking that Sidious would save his sorry ass if he lost the duel. So what? Does that suddenly become the equivilant to "Dooku thought Palpatine would save him(A), so Dooku must've been holding back(B)." A doesn't always equal B, Rampant. And as overlord said, it was stupid of Dooku to provoke Anakin into using his anger as a weapon, in fact, it was the worst decision of his life.

Escape81 Restricted

The major point you are missing is that DOOKU WASNT THERE TO KILL ANAKIN!!!

Firstly, Lucas states in the commentary that he was there to fight Anakin.

Secondly, then how the hell would Palpatine's plan work? How the hell could he successfully gauge Anakin's abilities if the entire fight was a set up? If Dooku were holding back, Palpatine's plan would make ZERO sense.

Thirdly, Lucas himself said that the fight was engineered to see if Anakin could defeat Dooku. If he didn't, the original plan was to wait and then try again.

Dooku was there to KILL him.

Yes in the bigger picture Sids was wanting to see whether Dooku or Anakin would win - but Dooku thought that Sids was still loyal.

Which is the point.

Palpatine, aka Mr. I-Want-The-Most-Powerful-Apprentice, pit them against each other so that he could see which one was stronger. Anakin came out on top. Argument OVER.

Then add in the fact Dooku was taunting Anakin much of the battle and that he was under the impression Sids would step in to help if anything was to go wrong.

Dooku's taunts were what caused Anakin to use his hate to overpower Dooku in the first place. Secondly, Sidious made it appear to Dooku that it was a test.

Labyrinth of Evil and RotS novelizations make it clear. Sidious was toying with Dooku, telling him that it was a test to gauge Skywalker's abilities - but that he doubted Anakin would win. He said that if by some chance, Skywalker does beat you he could control the outcome.

But what does he do?

He sees that Anakin is better, and betrays Dooku and persuades Anakin to kill him. Thus allowing Anakin to take Dooku's place and wrapping up a loose end.

The battle was clearly in Anakins favor. Anakin has far more potential than the Count, I am not arguing that, but in ROTS Dooku was still better - and would have won if it was a fair fight.

The battle was in Anakin's favor because he was better. RotS Dooku was not better.

Sidious: "soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

Don't gimme that line of "potential".

Palpatine didn't say potential did he?

Nope.

Point moot. Anakin was simply better than Dooku. The magical end.

((The_Anomaly)) 2003 Super Senior Member

Indeed. No matter how much BS people spurt out, the fact is, Dooku got...

Lord Saboteur Utinni!

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Indeed. No matter how much BS people spurt out, the fact is, Dooku got...

He got by Sidious and Anakin.

DE Luke Senior Member

Rampant Ox,Pyro and Jam Jul -

You're both arguing against facts, not with them.

Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.

Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.

Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.

Fact: Dooku lost.

Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.

Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:

Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.

So, the both of you have no argument.

Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.

Anakin > Dooku.

End. Of. Story.

Don't include your overbiased opinions as proof.Seriously,it even says in the book that even before Dooku through Obi-Wan into the prailing,Dooku was having a hard time keeping up,he only through Obi-Wan because he couldn't hold both of them off at the same time and was having enough trouble doing it WITH Obi-Wan in the duel.Anakin killed Dooku.If Dooku was skilled enough as you say,then he wouldn't have had trouble with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first place!Logic>Fanboyism.

Sorry to borrow your quote,Escape.Just needed to show these fanboys that their overbiased opinion doesn't count as proof.

Lord Saboteur Utinni!

Originally posted by DE Luke
Rampant Ox,Pyro and Jam Jul -
You're both arguing against facts, not with them.
Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.
Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.
Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.
Fact: Dooku lost.
Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.
Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."
So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:
Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.
So, the both of you have no argument.
Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.
Anakin > Dooku.
End. Of. Story.
Don't include your overbiased opinions as proof.Seriously,it even says in the book that even before Dooku through Obi-Wan into the prailing,Dooku was having a hard time keeping up,he only through Obi-Wan because he couldn't hold both of them off at the same time and was having enough trouble doing it WITH Obi-Wan in the duel.Anakin killed Dooku.If Dooku was skilled enough as you say,then he wouldn't have had trouble with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first place!Logic>Fanboyism.
Sorry to borrow your quote,Escape.Just needed to show these fanboys that their overbiased opinion doesn't count as proof.

Awesome rant, DE Luke. I agree with this entirely.

DE Luke Senior Member

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Awesome rant, DE Luke. I agree with this entirely.

Thanks.Had a few mispellings in it because I was in a rush,but I'm sure they understood what I was getting at. 😉

((The_Anomaly)) 2003 Super Senior Member

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Awesome rant, DE Luke. I agree with this entirely.

I agree too (though this was Escape81's Rant) but its right at any rate.

(BTW. You should quote other peoples words DE Luke, not post them as your own words, even if you acknowledge its not yours in the post...just saying)

DE Luke Senior Member

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I agree too (though this was Escape81's Rant) but its right at any rate.
(BTW. You should quote other peoples words DE Luke, not post them as your own words, even if you acknowledge its not yours in the post...just saying)

Escape's post was EXACTLY what I was going to post before,I figured since he did it already that I'd just borrow it instead of me doing the same exact thing(saved me A LOT of typing too).And secondly,the most likely would be that those fanboys would just overlook it instead of reading it.Consider it to be a bump of a quote with my opinion added to it. 😉

((The_Anomaly)) 2003 Super Senior Member

Heh, thats cool. But really, the fanboys already overlooked it when Escape81 posted it before. If they had listened then this "debate" would be over. 😉

But alas, they refuse to see facts.

Darth_Glentract The Truest Sith Lord

I'd say is goes like this for lightsaber skill.

1. Yoda
2. Dooku
3. Mace
4. Sidious

For force powers,

1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Dooku
4. Mace

Anakin and Obi-wan are equal in force powers. That was confirmed in ep3 when they tried to force push eachother and stalemated.

As for the thought that Anakin is better then Dooku, I certainly don't agree with it. How can you explain Dooku pwning Obi-wan and then Obi-wan defeating Anakin? Don't give me that Obi-wan was smarter crap as Dooku was smart too. Did Anakin suddenly get mentally retarded when he fought Obi-wan? No. He was no less intelligent there then he was when he faced Dooku. The reason for Sidious' statement is simple. Anakin was infact more powerful. He was not as finessed though. Raw power without finesse gives you an Anakin that would lose to Dooku if Dooku was trying to kill him.

DE Luke Senior Member

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'd say is goes like this for lightsaber skill.
1. Yoda
2. Dooku
3. Mace
4. Sidious
For force powers,
1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Dooku
4. Mace
Anakin and Obi-wan are equal in force powers. That was confirmed in ep3 when they tried to force push eachother and stalemated.
As for the thought that Anakin is better then Dooku, I certainly don't agree with it. How can you explain Dooku pwning Obi-wan and then Obi-wan defeating Anakin? Don't give me that Obi-wan was smarter crap as Dooku was smart too. Did Anakin suddenly get mentally retarded when he fought Obi-wan? No. He was no less intelligent there then he was when he faced Dooku. The reason for Sidious' statement is simple. Anakin was infact more powerful. He was not as finessed though. Raw power without finesse gives you an Anakin that would lose to Dooku if Dooku was trying to kill him.

Did you even READ the ROTS novel,or the script,or even LISTEN to the Commentary by George Lucas himself?DOOKU WAS FIGHTING AT HIS BEST!!!!Now you fanboys seem to think that you can somehow override Lucas' words with your own opinion?If so,then forget it.Lucas is the Ultimate Source of Canon,not you(which I THANK GOD for).Again,it all states that Dooku was going AT HIS HARDEST when fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan,He did NOT tool Obi-Wan easily.it even says he was using his last reserves of power so as to narrow it down somewhat so HE wouldn't be tooled by them both,from the ROTS novel even though it isn't in my own words,it's there.Again,will you fanboys listen to logic instead of your overbiased opinions and READ the novel?It,the script and Lucas ALL state that Dooku was going at his HARDEST.Read the novel,it even says he was having trouble with them both BEFORE he got Obi-Wan out of the fight.Read it if you don't believe me,you'll see that you're wrong.

Razielim KGB

This is a neat little quote I found.

From the Making of ROTS, page 205

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't gotten all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor"

Now, "if" Anakin "hadn't" gotten all beat up, he "could (not would)" have beat the Emperor. Is this referring to a theoretical Anakin a few years later or Anakin as of RotS? If it is, he's pretty much putting Anakin a tier above of Obi-Wan.

Now, about the RotS novelization... it's one man's interpretation and it does contradict the movie. It is quite a shaky source.

However, the novelization claims that all three (Kenobi, Anakin and Dooku) were playing around at the beginning. This kinda makes sense because Ani and Obi move quite slow. Dooku loses his patience and Kenobi goes flying. Now, at this point, Dooku starts going easy on Anakin again. Later, he realizes that he cannot control the boy. He tries quite hard and loses.

Now, it's possible that Anakin was the superior saber duelist to Dooku but he could not have been the superior force user because he stalemates Obi-Wan who's force defense could not resist Dooku's grip. Maybe Dooku thought he could take out Anakin with his saber? Maybe... he thought he didn't need force powers? Maybe he thought they wouldn't work? Either way, he refrains from using them.

Rampant ox Senior Member

Sheesh. You keep misenterpreting what I am saying. Look at it like this:

Fact: Two against one.

Fact: Dooku WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION that Sids would step in to help if anything went wrong. We all know that Sids was just pittng the two against each other but Dooku didnt.

Fact: Dooku didnt use the force once on Anakin.

Fact:Anakin was to be used as a general in the new army. However Sids just wanted to see one kill the other. Dooku wasnt aware of this though and thought his master was loyal.

Fact: Dooku spent much of the duel taunting Anakin.

Also Sids quote about a far more powerful apprentice means jack sh*t. I recall Dooku saying that he is more powerful than any jedi. Wrong. And Yoda said that Sids rule was at an end and not short enough it was. Wrong also. My point is SW characters blow things out of proportion all the time. We cant use Sids quote as proof because it is merely his opinion.

So once again what I am saying is that at the start of the battle Dooku would have won. For example when he was blocking both their sabers at nce with one hand. He could easily have fired some sith lightning with his other hand then but didnt. But as the fight progressed and he got Anakin more and more angry he had doomed himself. He was physically not strong enough to stand up to a fully angered Anakin. Taunting Skywalker cost the Count his life.

BlaxicanTroller Restricted

Wow, you have come a long way from your blinding fanboyism since the "Its not fair" thread..

Rampant ox Senior Member

Really? Thats the one in the OT Forum isnt it. Hahaha ill go and have a look.

Count Kent Restricted

Just one point: 'far more powerful and far younger' could easily be interpreted as potential, as Sidious could have been linking both words together into one meaning. He could have also meant that Anakin was far more powerful to the jedi order, that he would have been able to cause more destruction as the jedi already seem to trust him to a degree (this is shown through Vader's purge of the jedi and his striking down of the jedi).

@ DE Luke, please don't call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy. Rampant Ox may be known as a fanboy but at least he is not debating unreasonably and the same goes to Pyro. And since when has Glentract been a fanboy? You have no right to call anyone a fanboy if all that you can do is copy and paste other people's posts and pass them off as your own.

Pyro Tyrannus "Nerd maker funner of-er"

Originally posted by Count Kent
Just one point: 'far more powerful and far younger' could easily be interpreted as potential, as Sidious could have been linking both words together into one meaning. He could have also meant that Anakin was far more powerful to the jedi order, that he would have been able to cause more destruction as the jedi already seem to trust him to a degree (this is shown through Vader's purge of the jedi and his striking down of the jedi).
@ DE Luke, please don't call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy. Rampant Ox may be known as a fanboy but at least he is not debating unreasonably and the same goes to Pyro. And since when has Glentract been a fanboy? You have no right to call anyone a fanboy if all that you can do is copy and paste other people's posts and pass them off as your own.

F*ck yeah! Thank you, Kent. . .

Pyro Tyrannus "Nerd maker funner of-er"

Originally posted by DE Luke
Rampant Ox,Pyro and Jam Jul -
You're both arguing against facts, not with them.
Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.
Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.
Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.
Fact: Dooku lost.
Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.
Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."
So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:
Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.
So, the both of you have no argument.
Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.
Anakin > Dooku.
End. Of. Story.
Don't include your overbiased opinions as proof.Seriously,it even says in the book that even before Dooku through Obi-Wan into the prailing,Dooku was having a hard time keeping up,he only through Obi-Wan because he couldn't hold both of them off at the same time and was having enough trouble doing it WITH Obi-Wan in the duel.Anakin killed Dooku.If Dooku was skilled enough as you say,then he wouldn't have had trouble with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first place!Logic>Fanboyism.
Sorry to borrow your quote,Escape.Just needed to show these fanboys that their overbiased opinion doesn't count as proof.

Originally posted by Escape81
Firstly, Lucas states in the commentary that he was there to fight Anakin.
Secondly, then how the hell would Palpatine's plan work? How the hell could he successfully gauge Anakin's abilities if the entire fight was a set up? If Dooku were holding back, Palpatine's plan would make ZERO sense.
Thirdly, Lucas himself said that the fight was engineered to see if Anakin could defeat Dooku. If he didn't, the original plan was to wait and then try again.
Dooku was there to KILL him.
Which is the point.
Palpatine, aka Mr. I-Want-The-Most-Powerful-Apprentice, pit them against each other so that he could see which one was stronger. Anakin came out on top. Argument OVER.
Dooku's taunts were what caused Anakin to use his hate to overpower Dooku in the first place. Secondly, Sidious made it appear to Dooku that it was a test.
Labyrinth of Evil and RotS novelizations make it clear. Sidious was toying with Dooku, telling him that it was a test to gauge Skywalker's abilities - but that he doubted Anakin would win. He said that if by some chance, Skywalker does beat you he could control the outcome.
But what does he do?
He sees that Anakin is better, and betrays Dooku and persuades Anakin to kill him. Thus allowing Anakin to take Dooku's place and wrapping up a loose end.
The battle was in Anakin's favor because he was better. RotS Dooku was not better.
Sidious: "soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."
Don't gimme that line of "potential".
Palpatine didn't say potential did he?
Nope.
Point moot. Anakin was simply better than Dooku. The magical end.

Go stop breathing. . .do it. . .

DE Luke Senior Member

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Go stop breathing. . .do it. . .

It's not our fault you can't provide proof that your man Dooku is as good as your overbiased opinion says,fanboy.Don't whine and complain to us.