Originally posted by Lord UrizenDam I just love that guy, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. 😈
Lawbringer QZTR1) He flattened a prisoner to intensely that the prisoner's body was stretched across 3 continents.
2) Killed a Goddess by teleporting inside her and "spiking" his way out of her body, resulting in the internal shredding of her body.
3) Flattened another prisoner with his hand, by pummeling and "stapelling" him to the ground
4) Shot a lazer to cut a hole through a man's chest
5) Telekinetically turned a troll inside out by squishing his feet, squishing his legs upward so that his blood built upward, his organs came vomitting out of his mouth, he basically "rolled up" the troll's skin like toilet paper.
6) Destroyed several planets
7) Melted innocent people with his powers
8) squashed runaway prisoners like bugs for boredom
9) impaled a woman with his fingers
10) has done evil things so unspeakable, that he even claimed that the word "murderer" barely begins to describe him. "There is no language Dark Enough to describe what we are" is what he told a Godlike being after he killed his wife.
Originally posted by XplosiveIt's the same character. Lucifer invented the very idea of evil. I was merely bringing to the table that there's different interpretations of evil. I was speaking of evil, in the sense of 'against good', and Lucifer stands atop that list. He carries all of the 'evil' traits most religions speak of, such as his vainess and selfishness. [Not to mention he kills millions through the series, and builds an entire anti-god, anti-religion universe, as mentioned]
Why is here mentioned Bible. In Bible Lucifer is far more evil, is ultimate evil, in comic he is not.
Urizen is trying to enforce HIS version of what evil is, which apperently is BETTER described in his post on the last page, where he said "I do not define evil as being destructive....i define it as being CRUEL and SADISTIC." Which is apperently what the thread should be asking for, who's the most cruel and sadistic, that way he can feel like his favorite characters win.... and so people don't come in and drop relivent points only to somehow get told they're wrong and their points irrelivent.
Originally posted by Juntai
It's the same character. Lucifer invented the very idea of evil. I was merely bringing to the table that there's different interpretations of evil. I was speaking of evil, in the sense of 'against good', and Lucifer stands atop that list. He carries all of the 'evil' traits most religions speak of, such as his vainess and selfishness. [Not to mention he kills millions through the series, and builds an entire anti-god, anti-religion universe, as mentioned
1) Vainness and Selfishness in NO way compares to sadism, cruelty, hatred, etc.
2) I DO THINK LUCIFER IS EVIL....if i didnt thnk that, i would have not included him bro. I am just not convinced that he is the most evil. And initially you only have 2 reasons:
The Bible says so
He defies God
JUST understand Juntai...i am not against religion. However, the two upper reasons are extremely WEAK, because:
A) The Bible is not a comic book, so its validity is almost non existant
B)ALL of these characters defy God in some way, shape, or form.
Originally posted by Juntai
Urizen is trying to enforce HIS version of what evil is, which apperently is BETTER described in his post on the last page, where he said "I do not define evil as being destructive....i define it as being CRUEL and SADISTIC." Which is apperently what the thread should be asking for, who's the most cruel and sadistic, that way he can feel like his favorite characters win.... and so people don't come in and drop relivent points only to somehow get told they're wrong and their points irrelivent.
1) MY definition of evil doesn't have to be accepted. You were misdefining my definition, and i simply corrected you on what MINE was.
2) I am not forcing crap.....i am telling you that you were displaying purely religious bias into the forum, that was until you started giving ACTUAL FEATS.
All I am asking you to do is present COMIC BOOK FACT, not say stuff like "Well the Bible says Lucifer is the most evil thing ever" or "he goes against God, therefore he is most evil"....you have to understand those are veryyyy weak points for the above reasons.
Everyone else here is using FEATS and/or character descriptions to justify why they think their character is the most evil. All you were doing before was preaching on how your religion says Lucifer is the embodyment of evil, yada yada.....
Vertigo's Lucifer is NOT portrayed the EXACT same way the Bible portrays him....Lucifer has even stated how he is misrepresented by all the sources that describe him (including the Bible), he was tired of the mortal reputation he had (like being a soul collector, which isn't true...he couldnt care less for human souls).........THEREFORE that renders the Bible USELESS in this debate.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenBut as for Lucifer and his evilness, is upheld in his comic.. It upholds perfectly. I wasn't preaching my religion, I was talking about his portrayal. In Lucifer comics, just like in the bible, his evilness stems from defying Yahweh, he built his legacy on it. Yes, all sinners defy god in a sense, but none of them split heaven in half doing it. Defined what sin was, because it didn't exist before him.
1) Vainness and Selfishness in NO way compares to sadism, cruelty, hatred, etc.2) I DO THINK LUCIFER IS EVIL....if i didnt thnk that, i would have not included him bro. I am just not convinced that he is the most evil. And initially you only have 2 reasons:
The Bible says so
He defies God
JUST understand Juntai...i am not against religion. However, the two upper reasons are extremely WEAK, because:
A) The Bible is not a comic book, so its validity is almost non existant
B)ALL of these characters defy God in some way, shape, or form.
1) MY definition of evil doesn't have to be accepted. You were misdefining my definition, and i simply corrected you on what MINE was.
2) I am not forcing crap.....i am telling you that you were displaying purely religious bias into the forum, that was until you started giving ACTUAL FEATS.
All I am asking you to do is present [b]COMIC BOOK FACT
, not say stuff like "Well the Bible says Lucifer is the most evil thing ever" or "he goes against God, therefore he is most evil"....you have to understand those are veryyyy weak points for the above reasons.Everyone else here is using FEATS and/or character descriptions to justify why they think their character is the most evil. All you were doing before was preaching on how your religion says Lucifer is the embodyment of evil, yada yada.....
Vertigo's Lucifer is NOT portrayed the EXACT same way the Bible portrays him....Lucifer has even stated how he is misrepresented by all the sources that describe him (including the Bible), he was tired of the mortal reputation he had (like being a soul collector, which isn't true...he couldnt care less for human souls).........THEREFORE that renders the Bible USELESS in this debate. [/B]
Either way, I can tell I've struck I've nerve by simply offering a different viewpoint to what evil is. Whatever, rant all you want. I could care less after this post, because I'm already repeating myself over and over.
If you wanted who was the most SADISTIC character, then maybe you should have asked for that instead of 'evil', because evil to YOU apperently isn't the same exact definition of evil to everyone else, or we wouldn't be having this discussion would we?
Spectre is sadistic, murderer of countless people and civilisations, killing them all in more sick and twisted ways than anyone else on your list... is he evil? No.
I dunno, a few things to think about.
Originally posted by ThePittmanHe was a scary dude. The Lawbringers were nasty powerful. I still think if they ever ran into the dude from Sigil, they'd be ****ed. He seemed to be the most powerful of all the sigil bearers. They seemed to regard him as such as well.
QZTR, come on the guy wears all S&M leather, he has to be evil. 😈 👿
Originally posted by JuntaiYea he was pretty nasty but I still think QZTR could take him, though he would need a new S&M outfit. 😆
He was a scary dude. The Lawbringers were nasty powerful. I still think if they ever ran into the dude from Sigil, they'd be ****ed. He seemed to be the most powerful of all the sigil bearers. They seemed to regard him as such as well.
Originally posted by Juntai
But as for Lucifer and his evilness, is upheld in his comic.. It upholds perfectly. I wasn't preaching my religion, I was talking about his portrayal. In Lucifer comics, just like in the bible, his evilness stems from defying Yahweh, he built his legacy on it. Yes, all sinners defy god in a sense, but none of them split heaven in half doing it. Defined what sin was, because it didn't exist before him.
1) The only similiarity that Lucifer has in Vertigo as with the Bible is his defiance of God. This still doesn't hold the Bible entirely valid in this debate.
2) I once brought up the book of Urizen, to back up Urizen's power, and you yourself told me the Book Of Urizen by William Blake had no place in the Spawn mythos, even though Cogliostro mentioned it. Despite the fact that you were a hypocrit for involving the Bible in your argument, i dropped the argument.
3) Split Heaven in Half? Did Lucifer do that? NOW that's impressive. THAT's a FEAT done in Lucifer comics....not just a religious bias point of view.(instead of saying The Bible says so) Do you see the difference?
Originally posted by Juntai
Either way, I can tell I've struck I've nerve by simply offering a different viewpoint to what evil is. Whatever, rant all you want. I could care less after this post, because I'm already repeating myself over and over.
WRONG👇
1) AGAIN...you've struck a nerve by being a preacher in a comic book debate. You struck a nerve when you reasoned Lucifer as being the most evil because The Bible says he is...that is the most irrelevant point I ever heard.
2)Evil....my definition of evil, and yours isn't what's the conflict here. You were not using COMIC BOOK FACT to back up your points before. THAT was your error.
Originally posted by Juntai
If you wanted who was the most SADISTIC character, then maybe you should have asked for that instead of 'evil', because evil to YOU apperently isn't the same exact definition of evil to everyone else, or we wouldn't be having this discussion would we?
Nope. I wanna know who is the most evil character and why. I still do. But saying "The Bible says so" is an invalid argument.
Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre is sadistic, murderer of countless people and civilisations, killing them all in more sick and twisted ways than anyone else on your list... is he evil? No.
If he is sadistic in his approach, then yes he is evil in my book. Lots of religious regimes have done horrible things to people in real life....that makes thier actions any less evil because they were killing for God?
EVEN if graphic novel Kingdom Come drawn my Alex Ross, the main character who Spectre has approached, TOLD OFF Spectre by calling HIM EVIL He told Spectre:
"To stand by and see something horrible happen, and do nothing about it....now that is TRULY EVIL"
Spectre was willing to ignore the situation and have his judgement be that either the humans or superhumans die. The main character OPPOSED SPECTRE's point of view, and CONVINCED Spectre that his judgement was EVIL AND WRONG......
Originally posted by Juntai
I dunno, a few things to think about.
I think you need to think more before you POST. 😉
The only similiarity that Lucifer has in Vertigo as with the Bible is his defiance of God. This still doesn't hold the Bible entirely valid in this debate.2) I once brought up the book of Urizen, to back up Urizen's power, and you yourself told me the Book Of Urizen by William Blake had no place in the Spawn mythos, even though Cogliostro mentioned it. Despite the fact that you were a hypocrit for involving the Bible in your argument, i dropped the argument.
3) Split Heaven in Half? Did Lucifer do that? NOW that's impressive. THAT's a FEAT done in Lucifer comics....not just a religious bias point of view.(instead of saying The Bible says so) Do you see the difference?
And I wasn't citing Biblical anything in that other arguement either, you on the other hand were trying to use non canon sources and complete extrapolation [going above what was written and shown in the comic] then trying to claim it as a fact, because you thought it -might be-. In that case, you were very severely in the wrong . . . a lot like this time.
WRONG👇You're totally off base....an opinion can't be wrong. And I wasn't preaching anything. I said Lucifer is most evil, his comic book upholds the fact. He is the very inventor of evil. You're also ignoring the fact that Lucifer and both Spectre's comics, the entire DC and Veritog Universes all have the same "God is the ultimate good, and anything that opposes them is therefore evil", and Lucifer is the ultimate when it comes to opposing Gods will. And that's a comic fact.1) AGAIN...you've struck a nerve by being a preacher in a comic book debate. You struck a nerve when you reasoned Lucifer as being the most evil because The Bible says he is...that is the most irrelevant point I ever heard.
2)Evil....my definition of evil, and yours isn't what's the conflict here. You were not using COMIC BOOK FACT to back up your points before. THAT was your error.
Nope. I wanna know who is the most evil character and why. I still do. But saying "The Bible says so" is an invalid argument.Given your standards on what an evil character is, Spectre must be most evil. Given the billions of souls he's tortured and the method he does it.
If he is sadistic in his approach, then yes he is evil in my book. Lots of religious regimes have done horrible things to people in real life....that makes thier actions any less evil because they were killing for God?But a person killing in Gods name is a lot different than The Wrath of God killing someone because it must be done so that his soul may pass on.EVEN if graphic novel Kingdom Come drawn my Alex Ross, the main character who Spectre has approached, TOLD OFF Spectre by calling HIM EVIL He told Spectre:
"To stand by and see something horrible happen, and do nothing about it....now that is TRULY EVIL"
Spectre was willing to ignore the situation and have his judgement be that either the humans or superhumans die. The main character OPPOSED SPECTRE's point of view, and CONVINCED Spectre that his judgement was EVIL AND WRONG......
I think you need to think more before you POST. 😉And I think -you- do, because obviously you can't accept that not everyone agrees with your definition of evil.
Originally posted by Juntai
I didn't try to use just the bible, I merely stated an objective point of view on what evil is, it's perfectly viable. However, Lucifer in his comics, is Lucifer from the Bible, he hates the way it portrays him, but at the same time, the shoe fits. You'd be able to recognize this if you read any good amount of the stories involved with the character.
You specifically stated It says in the Bible that Lucifer is the most evil...that clearly IS using the Bible, a non canon source.
The shoe fits? Can you give specifics? References to the Bible and Comic,Comparisons, quotes, anything? That would seriously strengthen your argument. 😉
True, if I read more I may see the connection.
Originally posted by Juntai
And I wasn't citing Biblical anything in that other arguement either, you on the other hand were trying to use non canon sources and complete extrapolation [going above what was written and shown in the comic] then trying to claim it as a fact, because you thought it -might be-. In that case, you were very severely in the wrong . . . a lot like this time.
Book Of Urizen by William Blake was SPECIFICALLY referred to by COGLIOSTRO himself in Spawn issue #97. So my reference was a lot more valid than your reference to the Bible, which you never cited back to the comic to back up your argument.
However, i considered your argument, because the Book of Urizen itself is NOT a comic book. SO I DROPPED IT......you on the other hand, STILL INSIST on using the BIBLE to back up your argument, when it has no place here, because it is NOT a comic book...PERIOD. That she be the end of the Bible argument...geez 🙄
Originally posted by Juntai
You're totally off base....an opinion can't be wrong. And I wasn't preaching anything. I said Lucifer is most evil, his comic book upholds the fact. He is the very inventor of evil. You're also ignoring the fact that Lucifer and both Spectre's comics, the entire DC and Veritog Universes all have the same "God is the ultimate good, and anything that opposes them is therefore evil", and Lucifer is the ultimate when it comes to opposing Gods will. And that's a comic fact.
An opinion can be INVALID if backed up by an INVALID and IRRELEVANT source of information.
The Bible is an INVALID source of information to say that "Lucifer is the most evil"......The Bible is not a comic book....what part don't you understand?
And if the Vertigo Series Lucifer does parallel the Bible's depiction a lot, then ATLEAST explain HOW in detail...don't just give this "take my word" argument.
Originally posted by Juntai
Given your standards on what an evil character is, Spectre must be most evil. Given the billions of souls he's tortured and the method he does it.
I never said Spectre is the most evil. I said based on what you told me, he seems pretty evil to me now.
Originally posted by Juntai
But a person killing in Gods name is a lot different than The Wrath of God killing someone because it must be done so that his soul may pass on.
So in order for Spectre to pass a soul, he has to savagely torture someone to do it? You know how funny it is, you never even COUNTERED the point I made about Kingdom Come's depiction of Spectre.
You seem to skip a lot of points, thus making your arguments invalid, pointless, and cowardly.
Originally posted by Juntai
And I think -you- do, because obviously you can't accept that not everyone agrees with your definition of evil.
Ay Carajo chico.......CAN YOU EVEN READ?????
I HAVE SPECIFICALLY SAID:
2)Evil....my definition of evil, and yours isn't what's the conflict here. You were not using COMIC BOOK FACT to back up your points before. THAT was your error.
STOP debating like a child Juntai and debate for REAL. Don't argue with me about what is evil and what is not. If you WANT to have a RELIGIOUS or MORAL debate with me, then PM me...don't WASTE forum space on my thread !
Either ARGUE why you think Lucifer is the most evil with specific feats and actions he has DONE./....or stop wasting typing space alright?
The truth is, it's surprising you have any credibility left as a poster through the course of this thread and the last one. You've outright lied, put words into my mouth, extrapolated heavily, misconstrue material to try to help your cause, tried to use non canon sources as material evidence.. seriously the list goes on and on. I mean ...in this thread alone you've put words in my mouth several times, hell - you even tried to say The Spectre evil, said my opinion was wrong somehow, brought up Kingdom Come--a non canon source again-- to somehow 'prove' your non-point. [Which by the way was also wrong, what you said in that post never happened, save the completely mis-quoted line Norman yelled at Spectre.]Your debating style is simply put. . . .wack.
This is what you don't get after all this time. Your thread asked for the opinion of who's the most evil, I gave it. I'm not in an arguement. I don't have a case. I have an opinion. Your posts towards me throughout this thread have tried to attack me for my opinion, and tell me that it is in fact wrong. I believe it's right. Therefore it is right. Understand? You cannot, will not, influence my opinion. You think wanton destruction is evil, I think the characters who forumlate, calculate and plan evil, are the more evil ones. That again is my opinion.
The shoe fits? Can you give specifics? Referenceks to the Bible and Comic,Comparisons, quotes, anything? That would seriously strengthen your argument.
I mentioned the religious bit at the beginning of the thread just to offer an objective point of view to the thread, to add a little something to it. I wasn't trying to call anyone wrong, or anyone right. YOU did that, by nearly outright attacking me and my character through this thread. It's totally off base and you come across as quite bitter that I utterly schooled you in that last Spectre thread. I do that to everyone in Spectre threads. Now quit acting like a pussy and man up.
I also do not feel required to justify my choice to you, but you want some? Read the series. Everything Lucifer does is evil. In a single one shot, he found himself in the middle of a plot, and ended up killing several hundreds of thousands of people.. and ended up saving the world... but he didn't do it to save the world, or to kill the people.. it happened merely because they got in between him and his destination. And that's how Lucifer acts. In another comic, they show hell's fields of pain where the souls are the dead are tortured and "pain" is harvested from them, and acts is like crack to the denizens of hell. Every step Lucifer takes evil follows in his path. Anyone as well versed in his series as you pretend to act you would know this already. Just the same as you would also know that DC and Vertigo comics have heavy religious overtones and often reference the Bible and the events therein.[Many of the ones I read, Lucifer, Spectre, Testament, Hellblazer, etc. The stories interest me.] One such event is Lucifer turning on Yahweh, the rebellion in Heaven, Lucifer tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden, Lucifer becoming lord of hell, the ultimate sign of evil, the cursed one, the most foul, etc. Or Spectre being the manifestation of Gods Wrath and bringing the plagues, the fall of Saddom and Gammorah. Even Jesus happened in DC/Vertigo.
Anyways, I'm seriously done talking about this, I'll meet you in the next Superman thread or something and see if your skillz have improved yet.
Originally posted by Juntai
The truth is, it's surprising you have any credibility left as a poster through the course of this thread and the last one. You've outright lied, put words into my mouth, extrapolated heavily, misconstrue material to try to help your cause, tried to use non canon sources as material evidence.. seriously the list goes on and on. I mean ...in this thread alone you've put words in my mouth several times, hell - you even tried to say The Spectre evil, said my opinion was wrong somehow, brought up Kingdom Come--a non canon source again-- to somehow 'prove' your non-point. [Which by the way was also wrong, what you said in that post never happened, save the completely mis-quoted line Norman yelled at Spectre.]Your debating style is simply put. . . .wack.This is what you don't get after all this time. Your thread asked for the opinion of who's the most evil, I gave it. I'm not in an arguement. I don't have a case. I have an opinion. Your posts towards me throughout this thread have tried to attack me for my opinion, and tell me that it is in fact wrong. I believe it's right. Therefore it is right. Understand? You cannot, will not, influence my opinion. You think wanton destruction is evil, I think the characters who forumlate, calculate and plan evil, are the more evil ones. That again is my opinion.
I mentioned the religious bit at the beginning of the thread just to offer an objective point of view to the thread, to add a little something to it. I wasn't trying to call anyone wrong, or anyone right. YOU did that, by nearly outright attacking me and my character through this thread. It's totally off base and you come across as quite bitter that I utterly schooled you in that last Spectre thread. I do that to everyone in Spectre threads. Now quit acting like a pussy and man up.
I also do not feel required to justify my choice to you, but you want some? Read the series. Everything Lucifer does is evil. In a single one shot, he found himself in the middle of a plot, and ended up killing several hundreds of thousands of people.. and ended up saving the world... but he didn't do it to save the world, or to kill the people.. it happened merely because they got in between him and his destination. And that's how Lucifer acts. In another comic, they show hell's fields of pain where the souls are the dead are tortured and "pain" is harvested from them, and acts is like crack to the denizens of hell. Every step Lucifer takes evil follows in his path. Anyone as well versed in his series as you pretend to act you would know this already. Just the same as you would also know that DC and Vertigo comics have heavy religious overtones and often reference the Bible and the events therein.[Many of the ones I read, Lucifer, Spectre, Testament, Hellblazer, etc. The stories interest me.] One such event is Lucifer turning on Yahweh, the rebellion in Heaven, Lucifer tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden, Lucifer becoming lord of hell, the ultimate sign of evil, the cursed one, the most foul, etc. Or Spectre being the manifestation of Gods Wrath and bringing the plagues, the fall of Saddom and Gammorah. Even Jesus happened in DC/Vertigo.
Anyways, I'm seriously done talking about this, I'll meet you in the next Superman thread or something and see if your skillz have improved yet.
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
God...what a child you are ! Serously....
1) You FAIL to counter ANY of my points.
2) You fail or refuse to admit to the fact that you were mistaken in bringing up the Bible a non-canon source of information in the comic book forums. You still try to justify its use, and are blind to see how wrong you were in doing so.
3) You resort to name calling and cursing (ie. calling me a pussy, GROW UP JUNTAI SERIOUSLY) Can you even make a valid argument on the topic please?
4) AGAIN you are steering off topic, and turning my thread into a fkn 3 ring circus...CUT THE CRAP JUNTAI Either DEBATE or DONT but don't come here being a preacher and then being a critique on other people's debating skills. I couldn't care less what you think of my debate, yours is always weaker and less valid ALL THE TIME.
5)I'm DONE with you....if you wanna DEBATE as to WHY Lucifer is the most evil...than DO SO.
If you just wanted to give and INVALID statement like "Well the Bible says Lucifer is the most evil, therefore he Is" then you SAID what you had to, and LEAVE IT ALONE.
BUT WASTE NO MORE TIME on my thread. PLEASE.....STAY ON TOPIC OR GET OUT !
Originally posted by Juntai
Anything that is not God or would challenge Gods will is 'evil' according to the Bible. Lucifer is certainly that.
Just for the sake of simplicity, and a release of further argument.....cuz I hate going out of the confines of Diplomacy Juntai....
You have stated "according to the Bible", in which response I stated:
Originally posted by Juntai
No Offense Juntai, but "Biblical Truth" has NO PLACE in comic book reality. We had this discussion already, so please...Draco made a VERY valid point already.
So let's get something straight, because you were jumping to a million conclusions, and the argument got outta wack there:
1) MyONLY problem with your point was that you were using the Bible to back up your opinion. The Bible is not a comic book....therefore the point you were making was INVALID regardless of whether or not your opinion was.
2)As for our definitions of Evil- All that doesn't matter. Everyone has a different opinion of what is evil, and I stated that this wasn't the problem a few posts back. YOU keep insisting that i am trying to enforce my opinion onto you, and that argument is FALSE.
3)ALL I ASK is that if you are going to argue Lucifer as the most evil, then use examples from the COMIC BOOKS themselves as to why. OKAY? Is that so hard to do?
You saying "Lucifer is evil because the Bible says so" is as valid as me saying "Urizen is the most evil because The Book Of Urizen says he is"
Do you understand now? Or do you wanna promote an insult fest like you did last post, and derail this entire debate?