Originally posted by Captain REX
What happened is nobody's fault. If you want to blame SOMEONE, blame Palpatine.
Pretty much... Palpatine manipulated Padme, the Senate, the Jedi, and he even offered Anakin the only bait he knew Ani would never resist...
Mace had nothing to do with it... in fact, had Anakin been a minute too late Palps would be dead and Mace would have saved the Republic from becoming the Empire...
Originally posted by Lighthammer
How was Mace hypocritical?
SO anakin has the whole spiel about killing an unarmed prisoner right? He feels guilty for doing it. Its against the Jedi code.
Then he sees Mace, who treats him like an ass, and who is supposed to be better than him, go and attempt to kill an unarmed prisoner.
You don't think Anakin would have felt the slightest trace of hypocrisy?
First off difference. Dooku posed no threat he did not control the senates, or the courts, he also did not command the clones, and most likely did not know the code(though he probably knew the plan) Order 66.However, Palpatine controlled all of those things and posed a threat. Plus he wasn't unarmed, cause he used force lighting. Also Anakin killed Dooku just because the chancellor said so, with no knowledge of why he was asked to do that, whereas Mace, who was originally going to put him on trial, saw three fellow Masters fall by Palpatine in short battle, this allowed Mace to realize that he posed too much of a threat to be left alive, as he would just get out of it by manipulating the government.And with how easily he decided to kill Dooku, he probably would have let Mace do it, if Palpatine had nothing to offer, which because of him breaking the Jedi code, and the risk of Padme dying in child birth, gave Palpatine the way to persuade Anakin. And the reason Anakin attacked Mace was not because of the socalled hypocrasy, but because if Mace killed Palpatine, then Padme would suposedly not be able to saved, if she would actually have needed to be if Anakin hadn't killed Mace.
actually, eveything that happened, was meant to happen that way. That WAS the prophecy. You cant alter fate. If youre destined to die, then you will die. The jedi order had to fall in order to save Anakin. I dont think the events of Luke's life would have played out the same had the order not fallen.
The Prophecy was that the Chosen One would bring balance to the Force. It doesn't specify how things are supposed to happen. 😉
Originally posted by Alliance
SO anakin has the whole spiel about killing an unarmed prisoner right? He feels guilty for doing it. Its against the Jedi code.Then he sees Mace, who treats him like an ass, and who is supposed to be better than him, go and attempt to kill an unarmed prisoner.
You don't think Anakin would have felt the slightest trace of hypocrisy?
Mace is not being hypocritical, he's being reasonable. Palpatine controls the Republic, the courts, the army, etc. The Senate, corrupt and needing the leadership Palpy provides, would most likely not vote to jail Palpy or have him executed. And most likely Palpy would escape jail anyways. The list of stuff that would happen if Palpy was just arrested goes on and on and on.
Palpatine is pure evil, Mace wanted to extricate the evil before it got to be a bigger problem than it already was.
Enter Anakin. Anakin was, what, 22? It wasn't just Windu that felt Anakin shouldn't be granted Master, though they put him on the Council. ESPECIALLY since they could all feel his emotional confusion.
Plus, Anakin's view of the Jedi was twisted by Palpy, so if he had seen hypocrisy, it would have been because Palpy made it so.
On top of that, Anakin only wanted Palpatine to live so he could save Padme, as we all know...
Anakin hated the Jedi because of Palpatine, not because of Mace.
Originally posted by Alliance
SO anakin has the whole spiel about killing an unarmed prisoner right? He feels guilty for doing it. Its against the Jedi code.Then he sees Mace, who treats him like an ass, and who is supposed to be better than him, go and attempt to kill an unarmed prisoner.
You don't think Anakin would have felt the slightest trace of hypocrisy?
mace treats him the way he deserves to be treated... anakin constantly disobeys orders and questions the jedi way of life... when he was put on the council but not made a master he behaved like a five year old in a supermarket, he showed no respect towards the council or mace...
and palps is a SITH LORD... mace was spot on when he said "he's too dangerous to be kept alive," and imo at least, mace was right in wanting to kill palpatine...
not forgetting the fact that palpatine killed three jedi already...
mace wasnt hypocritical whatsoever... he needed to kill palpatine to preserve the jedi order... sometimes an act of evil is required to protect the greater good... 😬
anakin's gullability in believing palpatine's baseless claims is what led to him betraying the jedi, not mace windu's actions...
But Mace Windu destroyed the last shred of faith Anakin had left in the Jedi by telling him to stay behind. Anakin had just found out that Palpatine is a Sith Lord so he tells Mace about it and wants to come with him but instead of bringing Anakin along, Mace tells him to stay and that "If what you say is true, then you would have gained my trust". Now why would Mace say that? It's as if he thinks that Anakin made up the stuff he said just to protect Palpatine and he also senses confusion within Anakin but if Mace had brought him along and Palpatine still attacks them, the confusion will be erased as Anakin will realize that PalpSidious was never going to help him save Padme.
As it is, by telling Anakin to stay behind, Mace unwittingly caused him to believe PalpSidious's baseless claims thus leading him to turn traitor against the Jedi.
Originally posted by Captain REX
Mace is not being hypocritical, he's being reasonable. Palpatine controls the Republic, the courts, the army, etc. The Senate, corrupt and needing the leadership Palpy provides, would most likely not vote to jail Palpy or have him executed. And most likely Palpy would escape jail anyways. The list of stuff that would happen if Palpy was just arrested goes on and on and on.
No.
The Jedi complain about Palpatine amedning the consitution repeatedly to give himself more power, but the Jedi can amend the Jedi code to give themselves more power?
Is that not hipocrasy?
That aside...Anakin stuggles, fails the Jedi and kills Dooku. Then he sees Mace, the icon of the Jedi order, do the same thing. Is his not to question?
Originally posted by Forcewielder
But Mace Windu destroyed the last shred of faith Anakin had left in the Jedi by telling him to stay behind. Anakin had just found out that Palpatine is a Sith Lord so he tells Mace about it and wants to come with him but instead of bringing Anakin along, Mace tells him to stay and that "If what you say is true, then you would have gained my trust". Now why would Mace say that?
Because anakin knew that the council needed anakin to prove himself, and that they were also worried that anakin was too close to palpatine, which he was...
It's as if he thinks that Anakin made up the stuff he said just to protect Palpatine
I don't agree, i think it was done to remove anakin from being exposed to someone as manuipulative as palps, which while being a tad late, i could understand...
and he also senses confusion within Anakin but if Mace had brought him along and Palpatine still attacks them, the confusion will be erased as Anakin will realize that PalpSidious was never going to help him save Padme.
I don't think so... i think palpatine could twist it any way he saw fit... if anakin had gone palpatine probably would have been arrested, and would he have ever gone to prison or been removed from the senate? i honestly dont think so...
As it is, by telling Anakin to stay behind, Mace unwittingly caused him to believe PalpSidious's baseless claims thus leading him to turn traitor against the Jedi.
i dont agree... mace knew anakin was close to palpatine and was conflicted, the last thing he could do was put anakin in a position where he'd be forced to betray either of them...
Originally posted by Alliance
No.The Jedi complain about Palpatine amedning the consitution repeatedly to give himself more power, but the Jedi can amend the Jedi code to give themselves more power?
Is that not hipocrasy?
Amend the jedi code how? to take over the senate? it was only gong to be short term, and their plans were made with the republics interests at heart... the senate was nothing bit a bunch of politicians who dont really do much... and they were never going to turn on palpatine, they're practically sheep...
the jedi would always return any power to the senate... at their core they are the good guys... getting rid of palpatine was really their main concern...
That aside...Anakin stuggles, fails the Jedi and kills Dooku. Then he sees Mace, the icon of the Jedi order, do the same thing. Is his not to question?
No... Palpatine was the supreme chancellor, and had just murdered 3 jedi and attempted to do the same to mace... hell, anakin must have saw the jedi bodies, and he saw palpatine try to fry mace...
mace would have been an idiot to allow palpatine to walk away...
he's a friggin SITH LORD... 😛
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes, that might have solved the Anakin vs Hand issue, but not the hypocrisy.
I think the only person really jealous of hypocrisy is palpatine, but he's evil and its to be expected imo...
to be honest, if i were mace, i wouldnt have done much differently...
except maybe bring more jedi... 😖hifty:
sorry for the length of the post... 😮
It wasn't Mace Windu's fault that the Jedi Order collapsed, it was the Jedi themselves.
I also don't accept the idea that the Sith "evolved" while the Jedi didn't, which is why Palpatine was able to wipe them out. First, it's impossible to extrapolate this theory from the movies. Unless I hear Lucas say this is what he meant, this theory will remain as EU in Stover's novelization.
But I think that the Order had grown complacent and arrogant. However, if the Order had not started that way, for them to end up "full of themselves" would suggest that over time they had gone through a de-evolution of sorts. Rather than needing to "evolve", they simply needed to return to their roots. The Jedi were not always "blinded by their arrogance" and they needed to return to that mentality.
Qui-Gon is an example of this. In all the prequels, I believe he's the only one to mention following the Will of the Force. When Obi-Wan reminds Qui-Gon that he should be mindful of the future, Qui-Gon is the one to remind him “but not at the expense of the moment.” While the Jedi Council is fearful to train Anakin because of what might happen, Qui-Gon is more concerned with the fact that right now Anakin is a good person who has an incredible amount of potential and needs training. In this case, Qui-Gon was the one listening to the Will of the Force, while the Jedi Council sought to ignore the decision to train Anakin until after the Sith were revealed for sure and they felt they had no choice.
Part of the Council’s hesitation, IMO, is that they did not hear the Will of the Force as clearly as Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon tells Anakin that when Anakin learns to quiet his mind, he will be able to hear the Will of the Force. I think this is one aspect to how Palpatine took over. He kept the Jedi so busy and caught up in fighting a war, that they were unable to take a moment to evaluate everything and to hear the Will of the Force. He was able to use the same strategy to turn Anakin … keep Anakin running around and keep him stressed out with emotion so that he’s unable to clear his mind and hear the Will of the Force. Anakin was so worried about a possible future (Padme dying) that he was unable to fully realize what was going on in the present.
Also, until I see Lucas describe Qui-Gon was 'better able to connect to the Living Force through the Whills knmowledge, I won’t accept that theory. IMO, retaining one’s essence within the Force should be more than just a parlor trick. Saying that Qui-Gon was able to, and later Obi-Wan and Yoda, just because he knew the proper procedure greatly devalues the entire thing. Qui-Gon, IMO, was able to retain his identity because of his servitude to the Will of the Force … he understood it better and heard it better than the other Jedi, who had grown complacent. Qui-Gon died in the service of the Force, having dedicated his life to the Will of the Force.
The Jedi Council/Order, on the other hand as we saw, had devoted itself to the Republic, but not necessarily the Will of the Force. They were serving a political body, who’s goals may not always mirror the interests of the Force. Obi-Wan’s comment in ROTS exemplifies the problem: “Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to Democracy!”
Can you picture Qui-Gon saying the same thing? Or would he say his allegiance was to the Will of the Force? Qui-Gon was willing to disobey the Council (“I will do what I must, Obi-Wan”) because he recognized the Will of the Force as the ultimate authority. In this way being able to become a Force Spirit actually represents something ... not just a thorough knowledge and understanding of the Force, but also a clear and strong devotion to it and what it stands for.
Originally posted by Spartan llBest one I've heard yet.
It wasn't Mace Windu's fault that the Jedi Order collapsed, it was the Jedi themselves.I also don't accept the idea that the Sith "evolved" while the Jedi didn't, which is why Palpatine was able to wipe them out. First, it's impossible to extrapolate this theory from the movies. Unless I hear Lucas say this is what he meant, this theory will remain as EU in Stover's novelization.
But I think that the Order had grown complacent and arrogant. However, if the Order had not started that way, for them to end up "full of themselves" would suggest that over time they had gone through a de-evolution of sorts. Rather than needing to "evolve", they simply needed to return to their roots. The Jedi were not always "blinded by their arrogance" and they needed to return to that mentality.
Qui-Gon is an example of this. In all the prequels, I believe he's the only one to mention following the Will of the Force. When Obi-Wan reminds Qui-Gon that he should be mindful of the future, Qui-Gon is the one to remind him “but not at the expense of the moment.” While the Jedi Council is fearful to train Anakin because of what might happen, Qui-Gon is more concerned with the fact that right now Anakin is a good person who has an incredible amount of potential and needs training. In this case, Qui-Gon was the one listening to the Will of the Force, while the Jedi Council sought to ignore the decision to train Anakin until after the Sith were revealed for sure and they felt they had no choice.
Part of the Council’s hesitation, IMO, is that they did not hear the Will of the Force as clearly as Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon tells Anakin that when Anakin learns to quiet his mind, he will be able to hear the Will of the Force. I think this is one aspect to how Palpatine took over. He kept the Jedi so busy and caught up in fighting a war, that they were unable to take a moment to evaluate everything and to hear the Will of the Force. He was able to use the same strategy to turn Anakin … keep Anakin running around and keep him stressed out with emotion so that he’s unable to clear his mind and hear the Will of the Force. Anakin was so worried about a possible future (Padme dying) that he was unable to fully realize what was going on in the present.
Also, until I see Lucas describe Qui-Gon was 'better able to connect to the Living Force through the Whills knmowledge, I won’t accept that theory. IMO, retaining one’s essence within the Force should be more than just a parlor trick. Saying that Qui-Gon was able to, and later Obi-Wan and Yoda, just because he knew the proper procedure greatly devalues the entire thing. Qui-Gon, IMO, was able to retain his identity because of his servitude to the Will of the Force … he understood it better and heard it better than the other Jedi, who had grown complacent. Qui-Gon died in the service of the Force, having dedicated his life to the Will of the Force.
The Jedi Council/Order, on the other hand as we saw, had devoted itself to the Republic, but not necessarily the Will of the Force. They were serving a political body, who’s goals may not always mirror the interests of the Force. Obi-Wan’s comment in ROTS exemplifies the problem: “Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to Democracy!”
Can you picture Qui-Gon saying the same thing? Or would he say his allegiance was to the Will of the Force? Qui-Gon was willing to disobey the Council (“I will do what I must, Obi-Wan”) because he recognized the Will of the Force as the ultimate authority. In this way being able to become a Force Spirit actually represents something ... not just a thorough knowledge and understanding of the Force, but also a clear and strong devotion to it and what it stands for.
Originally posted by Spartan ll
It wasn't Mace Windu's fault that the Jedi Order collapsed, it was the Jedi themselves.I also don't accept the idea that the Sith "evolved" while the Jedi didn't, which is why Palpatine was able to wipe them out. First, it's impossible to extrapolate this theory from the movies. Unless I hear Lucas say this is what he meant, this theory will remain as EU in Stover's novelization.
But I think that the Order had grown complacent and arrogant. However, if the Order had not started that way, for them to end up "full of themselves" would suggest that over time they had gone through a de-evolution of sorts. Rather than needing to "evolve", they simply needed to return to their roots. The Jedi were not always "blinded by their arrogance" and they needed to return to that mentality.
Qui-Gon is an example of this. In all the prequels, I believe he's the only one to mention following the Will of the Force. When Obi-Wan reminds Qui-Gon that he should be mindful of the future, Qui-Gon is the one to remind him “but not at the expense of the moment.” While the Jedi Council is fearful to train Anakin because of what might happen, Qui-Gon is more concerned with the fact that right now Anakin is a good person who has an incredible amount of potential and needs training. In this case, Qui-Gon was the one listening to the Will of the Force, while the Jedi Council sought to ignore the decision to train Anakin until after the Sith were revealed for sure and they felt they had no choice.
Part of the Council’s hesitation, IMO, is that they did not hear the Will of the Force as clearly as Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon tells Anakin that when Anakin learns to quiet his mind, he will be able to hear the Will of the Force. I think this is one aspect to how Palpatine took over. He kept the Jedi so busy and caught up in fighting a war, that they were unable to take a moment to evaluate everything and to hear the Will of the Force. He was able to use the same strategy to turn Anakin … keep Anakin running around and keep him stressed out with emotion so that he’s unable to clear his mind and hear the Will of the Force. Anakin was so worried about a possible future (Padme dying) that he was unable to fully realize what was going on in the present.
Also, until I see Lucas describe Qui-Gon was 'better able to connect to the Living Force through the Whills knmowledge, I won’t accept that theory. IMO, retaining one’s essence within the Force should be more than just a parlor trick. Saying that Qui-Gon was able to, and later Obi-Wan and Yoda, just because he knew the proper procedure greatly devalues the entire thing. Qui-Gon, IMO, was able to retain his identity because of his servitude to the Will of the Force … he understood it better and heard it better than the other Jedi, who had grown complacent. Qui-Gon died in the service of the Force, having dedicated his life to the Will of the Force.
The Jedi Council/Order, on the other hand as we saw, had devoted itself to the Republic, but not necessarily the Will of the Force. They were serving a political body, who’s goals may not always mirror the interests of the Force. Obi-Wan’s comment in ROTS exemplifies the problem: “Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to Democracy!”
Can you picture Qui-Gon saying the same thing? Or would he say his allegiance was to the Will of the Force? Qui-Gon was willing to disobey the Council (“I will do what I must, Obi-Wan”) because he recognized the Will of the Force as the ultimate authority. In this way being able to become a Force Spirit actually represents something ... not just a thorough knowledge and understanding of the Force, but also a clear and strong devotion to it and what it stands for.
Long, but I like the first sentance...so 👆
(Dont forget that Mace is one of the leaders for the Jedi order, therfore he bears a lot of the blame)