Count Dooku runs the Gauntlet!

Started by Escape8110 pages
Escape81 Restricted
On the contrary, you're the one who doesn't get it. I have quoted word for word from the film what Yoda said about moving objects. When he commented to Palpatine about his rule, he was expressing an opinion (which turned out to be wrong) When he was tutoring Luke, he was stating facts, which he then proved to be right! If you mention the size of an object having relevence again, I will just ignore you, because you are only expressing your opinion, which means f*ck all compared to the 100% canon accuracy of the movie.

The size of an object, apparently, does have relevance! In ESB, Luke struggled to lift a larger object. I am stating that in this situation, Dooku had more difficulties lifting a smaller one than Sidious did a larger one. Several larger ones.

Ultimately, Dooku is no match for his master in the Force. Palpatine is simply better.

I quite agree. Infact, I agree entirely. Both had the other on the defensive at specific points, so I would agree that they are totally equals, neither is better than the other, one just happened to succeed. In a rematch (where plotline did not dictate the outcome) it could just as easily have gone to Yoda.

I'm glad you think so.

Because the point is, Dooku (unlike his master - which you just agreed to) WASN'T equal to Yoda.

🙂

Dooku's Force abilities may be inferior to Palpatine's, but, his saber technique is obviously superior.

Wait. Sidious's Force abilities may be superior, but Dooku's abilities are definately superior to Sidious's? That is crappy logic. Sidious is simply more powerful than his apprentice - get over it.

During his duel with Mace, Palpatine's motions were entirely predictable and readable.

You think so? Geez - must be because . . . he wasn't actively using the Force - other than to do a single flip off of his desk in the office.

Why not check out the Yoda vs. Sidious fight scene - where Sidious is as fast as Yoda, and as agile. The fight that, according to Lucas, he intentionally wanted to be fast paced.

Sidious uses a style similar to Ataru. He lacked the room to utilize his skills effectively against Mace, and still put up a hell of a fight for him. To top it off, the fight may (I'm going to say "may" so you don't freak out) have been a bit of a sham - but that's a different argument.

The bottom line is, Sidious put up a greater fight against Yoda than Mace. And Yoda is undisputed as Mace's superior.

As someone else pointed out, it was so slow it was laughable.

Yeah, and he was fast as hell during the fight scene with Yoda. 🙂

I ignored the rest of your comment as it was irrelevent.

ROFL? Irrelevent? Hardly . . .

Makes me wonder. If Dooku could kick Sidious's ass, why was he scared of him?

No. You deem it irrelevent because you don't wanna face the fact that Dooku was scared of his master. Y'know, the guy you think he can defeat.

((The_Anomaly)) 2003 Super Senior Member

Good points 😮‍💨

Legion_of_Maul Cool Joe.

he dies at sids, not because he's better but theres not way he runs through mace, and then turns around and fights sids, and wins. (he is old y'know)

Rampant ox Senior Member

Dooku gets healed after each fight Legion of Maul.

Lord Bryan LOOK AT SIG.

Sids>Dooku

Rampant ox Senior Member
Originally posted by Lord Bryan
Sids>Dooku

Im not disputing that, and I doubt anyone else is either. All im saying is that Sids is not leagues above Dooku, and that on some occasions Dooku would win. However the location would need to be heavily in the Counts favor etc.

Pyro Tyrannus "Nerd maker funner of-er"

Sidious uses a style similar to Ataru. He lacked the room to utilize his skills effectively against Mace, and still put up a hell of a fight for him. To top it off, the fight may (I'm going to say "may" so you don't freak out) have been a bit of a sham - but that's a different argument.

Directly from SW.COM, Mace had already defeated Sidious, when Skywalker arrived. Dooku beat Mace, Mace beat Sidious, Sidious stalemated Yoda as did Dooku. . .

DE Luke Senior Member

Dooku beat Mace BEFORE Mace made/mastered Vaapad,It's in the NEC.

overlord OD'd

Yeah, someone fighting with an incomplete form wich might have more flaws than actual completed forms can maybe be more easy to overcome. Just a thought..
Maybe that whole "WHOA DOOKU HAS BEATEN MACE A LONG TIME AGO" argument is useless?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im not disputing that, and I doubt anyone else is either. All im saying is that Sids is not leagues above Dooku, and that on some occasions Dooku would win. However the location would need to be heavily in the Counts favor etc.

haha! Nice try but:

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Escape81
The size of an object, apparently, does have relevance! In ESB, Luke struggled to lift a larger object.

He struggled not because of the size of the object, but because of the limitiations he was putting on himself. Stop trying to dispute what Master Yoda actually said. Even when Yoda raised the X-Wing, Luke said that he didn't believe it (that he didn't think it was possible) and Yoda quite clearly said "That is why you fail." The reason for Luke's failure was not the size of the object, but himself.

Originally posted by Escape81
Ultimately, Dooku is no match for his master in the Force. Palpatine is simply better.

Palpatine is not a better swordsman than Dooku.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm glad you think so.

Because the point is, Dooku (unlike his master - which you just agreed to) [B]WASN'T equal to Yoda.

🙂
[/B]


In AotC, Dooku and Yoda's Force abilities were shown as equal, but Yoda was shown to have marginally better duelling skills than Dooku, but certainly not by much. I did say that Yoda and Palpatine were equals, but, having re-watched the scene, at the end of their contest, Palpatine was actually the more concerned by the Force Lightning that Yoda was absorbing, so Yoda's Force abilities are marginally better than Palpatine's (again, not by much). The only reason Palpatine won (plot necessity) was that when he fell, he fell against a railing he could use as a grip to pull himself up, but Yoda fell against a totally smooth surface, so was not able to pull himself up. Yoda then chose to simply retreat rather than continue the fight, something Dooku told Grievous to do, and had probably been told by Yoda.

Originally posted by Escape81
Wait. Sidious's Force abilities may be superior, but Dooku's abilities are definately superior to Sidious's? That is crappy logic. Sidious is simply more powerful than his apprentice - get over it.

My apologies, it was a figure of speech, and you are also distorting the 'equasion'. Allow me to clarify:
Palpatine's Force ablilities may be superior to Dooku's (re-watching the duel between Palpatine and Yoda has made me re-evaluate Yoda's Force abilities) Dooku's saber abilities are definitely superior to Palpatine's. Palpatine did not disarm Yoda with his lightsaber (for some reason, he just stopped using it, and started chucking the pods around) The times when he was seen using his saber (against Mace and even Yoda) his abilities were not as good as those against Dooku (who also fought Yoda on screen)

Originally posted by Escape81
You think so? Geez - must be because . . . he wasn't actively using the Force - other than to do a single flip off of his desk in the office.

Neither Mace nor Palpatine were using the Force during their duel, so that cannot be used as an explanation. When relying on purely physical skills with a saber, Palpatine's moves were obvious and readable.

Originally posted by Escape81
Why not check out the Yoda vs. Sidious fight scene - where Sidious is as fast as Yoda, and as agile. The fight that, according to Lucas, he intentionally wanted to be fast paced.

Just watched it again (actually stopped writing to do so to check a point) I don't disagree with what you've said (in this paragraph) but the outcome of the contest was one solely dictated by luck (or in reality, plot necessity)

Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious uses a style similar to Ataru. He lacked the room to utilize his skills effectively against Mace, and still put up a hell of a fight for him. To top it off, the fight may (I'm going to say "may" so you don't freak out) have been a bit of a sham - but that's a different argument.

I know what you mean, but, at that point, Palpatine did not know for certain that Anakin was going to turn up and intervene on his behalf, so I think it's safe to say that he was fighting against Mace to the full extent permitted by the geography of the setting.

Originally posted by Escape81
The bottom line is, Sidious put up a greater fight against Yoda than Mace.

Yes and no. Yoda fought differently to Mace, so Palpatine adapted to fight in the same style (making it faster) however, that does not necessarily mean he fought harder against Yoda than he did against Mace. It might have been more challenging, but the intent was still the same.

Originally posted by Escape81
Yeah, and he was fast as hell during the fight scene with Yoda. 🙂
Not when they began the duel. It only 'got fast' when they were simply trading blow for blow rather than standing off against each other between attacks. As I said above, it's a different style of fighting, so cannot be judged by the standards of a different style.

Originally posted by Escape81
ROFL? Irrelevent? Hardly . . .

Yes, Irrelevent.

Originally posted by Escape81
Makes me wonder. If Dooku could kick Sidious's ass, why was he scared of him?

I don't know. Having re-evaluated the powers of those involved in the equasion, the only reason I can think of is plot necessity.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. You deem it irrelevent because you don't wanna face the fact that Dooku was scared of his master. Y'know, the guy you think he can defeat.

Anakin was also scared of Dooku. That did not stop him from beating him.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Anakin is never shown as scared of Dooku and Yoda is outright stated to be high above Dooku

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Anakin is never shown as scared of Dooku

Count DookuI sense great fear in you Skywalker!

Seems pretty definitive to me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda is outright stated to be high above Dooku

Where?

Lightsnake Senior Member

AOTC novelization, comic adaption, commentary, Dark rendevous...Let me put it this way: Dooku fought Yoda when Yoda was distracted by heavy darkside presence, saving people Dooku'd just tossed out a window with the force and was lowering them and dueling Dooku with a saber and defeated him SOUNDLY

And there were also, what's the terms...hate and anger...and the moment Anakin used them, poor ol' Dooku was outclassed

Captain REX Networking

And Dooku knew he'd be outclassed if Yoda did the same Anakin did...

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
AOTC novelization, comic adaption, commentary, Dark rendevous...Let me put it this way: Dooku fought Yoda when Yoda was distracted by heavy darkside presence, saving people Dooku'd just tossed out a window with the force and was lowering them and dueling Dooku with a saber and defeated him SOUNDLY

And that equals the canon of the AotC movie how, precicely? In the movie of AotC (highest form of canon) Yoda stalemated Dooku's Force abilities, but did not exceed them himself (when he sent the lightning back towards Dooku, the Count deflected it as well) When they then duelled, it was to a standstill (and Yoda was the one bouncing around the hangar to avoid a lightsaber, not Dooku) I agree that Yoda is above Dooku, but not by much. We are not talking about Yoda=10 Dooku=8, but Yoda=10 Dooku=9.5.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And there were also, what's the terms...hate and anger...and the moment Anakin used them, poor ol' Dooku was outclassed

When was Dooku outclassed or outduelled by Anakin? How many of Anakin's saber swings actually hit Dooku? Did Anakin cut off Dooku's hands before or after Anakin grabbed him (preventing him using his lightsaber defensively)

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Originally posted by Darth Vious
And that equals the canon of the AotC movie how, precicely? In the movie of AotC (highest form of canon) Yoda stalemated Dooku's Force abilities, but did not exceed them himself (when he sent the lightning back towards Dooku, the Count deflected it as well) When they then duelled, it was to a standstill (and Yoda was the one bouncing around the hangar to avoid a lightsaber, not Dooku) I agree that Yoda is above Dooku, but not by much. We are not talking about Yoda=10 Dooku=8, but Yoda=10 Dooku=9.5.

When was Dooku outclassed or outduelled by Anakin? How many of Anakin's saber swings actually hit Dooku? Did Anakin cut off Dooku's hands before or after Anakin grabbed him (preventing him using his lightsaber defensively)

Yoda did not put any effort in the force lightning, that is very visible. If you're arguing that Obi and Ani both put much effort from the beginning of the fight vs Dooku just by looking at them, I'm pretty sure I can do it as well. Yoda's comment is very clear that Dooku was not a match for Yoda, "much to learn you still have". When parrying and sending back the lightning, Yoda was barley serious....
When Dooku attacked, Yoda fended it all of easily. He did not even push it back because he does not attack with the force. If he did, Dooku would easily be overwhealmed. Dooku was impressive with the force, but against Yoda, he has no chance. He could not break through, even when Yoda wasn't that serious....

Yoda's style is to jump around, it requires much space. Dooku was the one barley hanging on, there is a reason he escaped after 20-30 seconds of fighting. It is shown once again in Dark Rendevous that Yoda could outmatch Dooku, even when busy with other stuff, and Dooku having the advantage of area and surprise.....

About the "I sense great fear in you Skywalker". He didn't say, "I sense much fear of me from you Skywalker", he only said fear. Anakin feared the death of Padme and his friends more than anything, Anakin was not yet in control of his emotions. It was this fear he sensed....
He even said the same to Assaj Ventress, she was not scared of him for a second, she even though he was a defenceless old man which knew nothing of the dark side.

Captain REX Networking

Dooku IS the second most powerful swordsman in the Jedi Order before he leaves, Vious, so that's not hard to believe. However, Yoda is still better than Dooku is. I don't see a stalemate in the movie, I see Dooku being a coward and running off before it goes any further. With the Force, I just see Yoda shunting off Dooku's attacks, not a stalemate. Yoda repelled the lightning and Dooku deflected it easily, yes, but Dooku DOES have more experience with lightning and whatnot, being a Sith...

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

I don't see Dooku deflecting it easily, you can see his expression while doing it, and he could only parry it, not absorb it....

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
Yoda did not put any effort in the force lightning, that is very visible. If you're arguing that Obi and Ani both put much effort from the beginning of the fight vs Dooku just by looking at them, I'm pretty sure I can do it as well. Yoda's comment is very clear that Dooku was not a match for Yoda, "much to learn you still have". When parrying and sending back the lightning, Yoda was barley serious....
When Dooku attacked, Yoda fended it all of easily. He did not even push it back because he does not attack with the force. If he did, Dooku would easily be overwhealmed. Dooku was impressive with the force, but against Yoda, he has no chance. He could not break through, even when Yoda wasn't that serious....

Yoda's style is to jump around, it requires much space. Dooku was the one barley hanging on, there is a reason he escaped after 20-30 seconds of fighting. It is shown once again in Dark Rendevous that Yoda could outmatch Dooku, even when busy with other stuff, and Dooku having the advantage of area and surprise.....


Sorry, but I don't agree with your analysis. Yes, Yoda is more powerful than Dooku, I don't despute that. But not by much Examples from novels cannot overrule examples from the movies. Yoda might have commented that Dooku still had much to learn, but, the duel was not so in Yoda's favor, and when they got into the saber lock, he said "Fought well you have, my old padawan"

Originally posted by kamikz
About the "I sense great fear in you Skywalker". He didn't say, "I sense much fear of me from you Skywalker", he only said fear.

Don't try splitting hairs, it's obvious that he was refering to the duel, as the last time Anakin and Dooku crossed swords, Anakin had his arm cut off, and that would have been seriously weighing on Anakin's mind.

Originally posted by kamikz
Anakin feared the death of Padme and his friends more than anything,

No. At that point, Anakin had not had his premenitions of Padme's death, so he would not have been concerned about her safety. As for Obi-Wan, he had already been taken out of the battle, so Anakin would not have been scared that Obi-Wan was going to get hurt (he already had been) he would have been angry about that, and Dooku said that Anakin had hate and anger (towards him for hurting Ob-Wan) but was not using them.

Originally posted by kamikz
He even said the same to Assaj Ventress, she was not scared of him for a second, she even though he was a defenceless old man which knew nothing of the dark side.

She actually said foolish old man, but what the heck... Either way, Dooku responded by chuckling in amusement and then opening up a can of Forcelightning whoopass on her, proving her wrong about his knowledge of the Dark Side 😉

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Sorry, but I don't agree with your analysis. Yes, Yoda is more powerful than Dooku, I don't despute that. But not by much Examples from novels cannot overrule examples from the movies. Yoda might have commented that Dooku still had much to learn, but, the duel was not so in Yoda's favor, and when they got into the saber lock, he said "Fought well you have, my old padawan"

Don't try splitting hairs, it's obvious that he was refering to the duel, as the last time Anakin and Dooku crossed swords, Anakin had his arm cut off, and that would have been seriously weighing on Anakin's mind.

No. At that point, Anakin had not had his premenitions of Padme's death, so he would not have been concerned about her safety. As for Obi-Wan, he had already been taken out of the battle, so Anakin would not have been scared that Obi-Wan was going to get hurt (he already had been) he would have been angry about that, and Dooku said that Anakin had hate and anger (towards him for hurting Ob-Wan) but was not using them.

She actually said foolish old man, but what the heck... Either way, Dooku responded by chuckling in amusement and then opening up a can of Forcelightning whoopass on her, proving her wrong about his knowledge of the Dark Side 😉

Sorry, I don't agree either. To me it's pretty obvious that Yoda was very much ahead of Dooku in the force, and the saber battle, well, the only thing is that it takes a long time for Yoda to finish someone off in a saber duel. And I think the novel describes it the way I saw the duel in the film, so your opinion isn't law since I saw it in a different way, so it shouldn't be considerd that the novel contradict the movie, since it doesn't appear that way to everyone.
Well, the only thing is that it takes a long time for Yoda to finish someone off in a saber duel. Dooku's good, and pretty close, but he cannot beat Yoda...

No, it's not obvious. Sith often talk about fears, and as I proved with the Assaj case he wasn't talking about him personally injecting fear to her. He sensed fear in Skywalker, so did Yoda. Does that mean Anakin fears Yoda?
Anakin must not see a vision about Padme dying before he can be concerned about her saftey. There had been previous assassination attempts on her, she was never safe actually. And Obi, he didn't even know if Obi was alive. He was concerned for him, maybe he couldn't breath under that thing as far as Anakin knew. He had fears, because a sith mentions it it doesn't mean that he fears him.

And this even proves my case. So she didn't belive he was powerful or knew anything about the dark side, he proved her wrong. This proves that she thought he was a denceless old man, and that a simple saber cut would finish him off. Apparently, Dooku wasn't talking about her fear for him....