Count Dooku runs the Gauntlet!

Originally posted by kamikz
So the weakest jedi in history could move a planet if he wanted to? I've seen multiple occasions where a jedi has been to weak to move something even though they wanted to...

Originally posted by kamikz
Just because it was a line in the movies doesn't mean it's right

Originally posted by kamikz
Was Anakin better than Mace Windu in AOTC because he said so?

WTF. Try to get what I'm saying. You say that because it was a line in the movie it must be that way. I show you that just because someone said it in the movie doesn't mean it's canon. The movie itself might be reliable, but the persons in it must not always be right.... Answere that instead.

He'll die either at Qui-Gon or Mace.

Originally posted by kamikz
WTF. Try to get what I'm saying. You say that because it was a line in the movie it must be that way. I show you that just because someone said it in the movie doesn't mean it's canon. The movie itself might be reliable, but the persons in it must not always be right.... Answere that instead.

Originally posted by kamikz
You say that because it was a line in the movie it must be that way.

Originally posted by kamikz
I show you that just because someone said it in the movie doesn't mean it's canon. The movie itself might be reliable, but the persons in it must not always be right.... Answere that instead.

...Yoda was wrong in ROTS.

- At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was.
And Yoda clearly underestimated Sidious to, another mistake from the "all knowing jedi master".

And still Lucas put Anakin's line there, was it wrong? Yes, of course it was. Was it still put there? Yes it was.

Tell me, why would Yoda have to use more of his force strenght to lift a pillar that is really big, and less when he is lifting a rock or something smaller? Tell me that instead, give me proof....

Originally posted by kamikz
...Yoda was wrong in ROTS.

- At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was.
And Yoda clearly underestimated Sidious to, another mistake from the "all knowing jedi master".

Originally posted by kamikz

And still Lucas put Anakin's line there, was it wrong? Yes, of course it was. Was it still put there? Yes it was.

Originally posted by kamikz
Tell me, why would Yoda have to use more of his force strenght to lift a pillar that is really big, and less when he is lifting a rock or something smaller? Tell me that instead, give me proof....

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Yoda was wrong because of plot necessity (he had to lose) He did not have to be wrong when he was training Luke.

What line? I don't recall Anakin ever saying he was better than Mace.

If I recall, Luke tried to raise the X-Wing, and when it went back under, said "It's too big." Yoda then said "Size matters not. Judge me by my size do you?" I forget if he then said something else... but he then lifted the X-Wing, to which Luke said "I don't believe it!" and Yoda replied "That is why you failed." Yoda was not at that point refering to the size of the object (which he had already said did not matter) but then refering to the fact that Luke failed because he did not believe what he was trying to do was possible, and was held back by his own view of what was and what was not possible.

Yeah, so? This shows that the "all knowing" Yoda can be wrong to. Just because he didn't have to be wrong doesn't mean he can't be wrong....

Here...

"Obi-Wan is as powerful as master Windu, and as wise as master Yoda, and still I'm beyond him"

Yeah, Luke said it was impossible AFTER it sunk. Maybe he could have tried again and succeeded, or maybe the same thing would have happened. Thing is that Luke did not disbelive it before he saw that he failed. The flaw with Luke that Yoda saw directly when he confronted him was that he always doubted things, always turned away from what needed to be done. This was the perfect lesson to show Luke how to control the force and belive that anything was possible. Still, that doesn't mean that any jedi can lift anything in the galxay, just that you should never doubt yourself....

Many martial artists say the same thing, "anything is possible". It is clear that anything is not possible, but it is a way to keep up hope, beliving. It makes you stronger indeed, and makes you try harder. That's what I think. But maybe you and I just have to agree to disagree?

Originally posted by kamikz
Yeah, so? This shows that the "all knowing" Yoda can be wrong to. Just because he didn't have to be wrong doesn't mean he can't be wrong....

Originally posted by kamikz

"Obi-Wan is as powerful as master Windu, and as wise as master Yoda, and still I'm beyond him"

Originally posted by kamikz

Yeah, Luke said it was impossible AFTER it sunk. Maybe he could have tried again and succeeded, or maybe the same thing would have happened. Thing is that Luke did not disbelive it before he saw that he failed.

Luke:
Master, moving stones around is one thing, this is totally different...

Yoda:
No! No different! Only different in your mind! You must unlearn what you have learned

Luke:
Alright, I'll give it a try...

Yoda:
No! Try not! Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Luke:
I can't. It's too big.

Yoda:
Size matters not.

Luke:
I don't... I don't believe it!!!

Yoda:
That, is why you fail.

Originally posted by kamikz
Many martial artists say the same thing, "anything is possible". It is clear that anything is not possible, but it is a way to keep up hope, beliving. It makes you stronger indeed, and makes you try harder. That's what I think. But maybe you and I just have to agree to disagree?

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Okay, whatever...

Ahh, the line to Padme in her room... He was saying that he was ahead of Obi-Wan, not Mace or Yoda, and in all honesty, that was just typical Anakin arrogance to impress Padme (which didn't really work). He was however, regardless of his opinion, not beyond Obi-Wan, as RotS and ANH both showed...

Precicely. Luke did not think he could do it to begin with, (even if he actually could have done) which is why he failed. I've just checked the scene on YouTube, here're the exact quotes:

*Luke then attempts (unsuccessfully) to raise the X-Wing*

*Yoda then raises the X-Wing (not really struggling either, simply focussing his concentration)*

I agree with your point there, that a positive mental attitude is required to succeed, but, that could equally apply to telekenetics, and that unless someone thinks (or knows) they can do something, they cannot.

In that line he was saying that Obi was equal to Mace, and that Anakin was beyond Obi. Thus in his mind Obi = Mace, Anakin > Obi which means Anakin > Mace. But apparently that is wrong....

Oh yeah, I had also forgotten the whole line. Yoda was wise and knew much about the force, at this I agree. But still, it does not mean he means a jedi can move anything if they want to. You need potential and midichlorians to move something that is HUGE, not many could have done what Yoda did in AOTC, and Yoda showed that it was very heavy, even for him, to do... So I think that line was only to mentally boost Luke, to make him belive in himself. He knew how high Luke's potential was, if he belived in himself he could almost do anything he wanted to. But that does not go for any jedi....

I think ROTS Vader could (human) could take Mace. . .

Originally posted by kamikz
In that line he was saying that Obi was equal to Mace, and that Anakin was beyond Obi. Thus in his mind Obi = Mace, Anakin > Obi which means Anakin > Mace. But apparently that is wrong....

Originally posted by kamikz
Oh yeah, I had also forgotten the whole line. Yoda was wise and knew much about the force, at this I agree. But still, it does not mean he means a jedi can move anything if they want to. You need potential and midichlorians to move something that is HUGE, not many could have done what Yoda did in AOTC, and Yoda showed that it was very heavy, even for him, to do... So I think that line was only to mentally boost Luke, to make him belive in himself. He knew how high Luke's potential was, if he belived in himself he could almost do anything he wanted to. But that does not go for any jedi....

Originally posted by Darth Vious
I don't think he was using that kind of logic, but simply making comparisons to people both Padme and the audience were familiar with. He could've just said Obi-Wan was wise and powerful, but he was giving examples, and it was just ego massage, I don't think he was meaning it as such a literal comparison, as he would have said "I'm above them", not "I'm above him" so just refering to Obi-Wan.

But Yoda was not struggling to lift the X-Wing. He gathered his thoughts and focus, then did it, and was totally at ease while doing so. To be honest, I think Luke's 'skills', are as hyped up and exagerated as Anakin's. I didn't see him doing anything in RotJ that Zet Jukassa couldn't do, infact, there was one point where Zet's skills are clearly superior to Luke's.

I think he was. He said that Obi-Wan was AS powerful as master Windu and as wise as master Yoda. He was comparing them, he could just have said that Obi was very powerful and wise, but instead he compared him to them. Why would he say them when he was talking about Obi? And in the ROTS novelisation Anakin indeed says "I'm stronger than any of you". It was ego, but he was wrong. The point is that not everyone is right in the films, just because they say something doesn't mean it's true.....

But the X-Wing was much lighter than the tube in AOTC. Also, it doesn't make sense how anyone could lift anything. Jedi are limited to their potential. Actually, almost the only proof we have to Yoda being powerful is that he lifts different stuff, and that is indeed impressive. If an object is to heavy then a jedi can't lift it, it is that simple. It has been shown that when lifting a rock and lifting a building there is a difference...

Originally posted by kamikz
I think he was. He said that Obi-Wan was AS powerful as master Windu and as wise as master Yoda. He was comparing them, he could just have said that Obi was very powerful and wise, but instead he compared him to them. Why would he say them when he was talking about Obi?

Originally posted by kamikz
And in the ROTS novelisation Anakin indeed says "I'm stronger than any of you".

Originally posted by kamikz
The point is that not everyone is right in the films, just because they say something doesn't mean it's true.....

Originally posted by kamikz
But the X-Wing was much lighter than the tube in AOTC.

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, almost the only proof we have to Yoda being powerful is that he lifts different stuff

Originally posted by kamikz
It has been shown that when lifting a rock and lifting a building there is a difference...

Luke:
Master, moving stones around is one thing, this is totally different...

Yoda:
No! No different! Only different in your mind! You must unlearn what you have learned

Luke:
I can't. It's too big.

Yoda:
Size matters not.

Luke:
I don't... I don't believe it!!!

Yoda:
That, is why you fail.

It does not get any clearer than that.

You just don't get it, do you?

Palpatine is Yoda's equal. He was able to overpower and put Yoda on the defensive at specific points in the duel, unlike Count Dooku. Furthermore, as I have already stated - and Lightsnake has supported - Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda on Vjun, a planet steeped in the Dark Side of the Force.

To top it off, Yoda was distracted trying to save a woman from plunging to her death when Dooku attacked him. And he still, in the end, managed to force Dooku to flee Vjun - despite it being under Confederacy control.

If Yoda were Dooku's equal, then Dooku would have overcame his former master with so many advantages at his disposal. But he didn't.

Face it. Dooku would be unable to defeat Yoda in a fight, and he would be unable to defeat his Master.

Y'know, the only person in the galaxy that Dooku is scared of? Why the hell would Count Dooku - the guy who has no fear about facing Yoda, Anakin, or Obi-Wan - be afraid of Sidious if he is able to defeat him?

None.

Dooku is inferior to Sidious, and would die facing him in combat.

Furthermore, Vious -

A single repulsorpod is roughly twice as large as one of the generators that Dooku threw at Yoda. He struggled to rip those free - as well as the debris from the roof of the hangar.

Sidious tossed three or four repulsorpods with ease at Yoda. To top it off, he was able to do something Dooku couldn't in his duel in AotC. He managed to force Yoda on the defensive at various points in their lightsaber duel, managed to strike him, managed to disarm him, and caused a stalemate.

He forced Yoda to flee.

The point is, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in the force. His skills with a saber aren't exactly sub-par, either, combine the two - and he would defeat his apprentice.

He dies at seven. That's the bottom line.

Originally posted by Escape81
Furthermore, Vious -

A single repulsorpod is roughly twice as large as one of the generators that Dooku threw at Yoda. He struggled to rip those free - as well as the debris from the roof of the hangar.

Sidious tossed three or four repulsorpods with ease at Yoda. To top it off, he was able to do something Dooku couldn't in his duel in AotC. He managed to force Yoda on the defensive at various points in their lightsaber duel, managed to strike him, managed to disarm him, and caused a stalemate.

He forced Yoda to flee.

The point is, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in the force. His skills with a saber aren't exactly sub-par, either, combine the two - and he would defeat his apprentice.

He dies at seven. That's the bottom line.

Dooku is inferior to Yoda. I am not arguing that, im just saying its not by some massive margin. If Yoda was leagues above Dooku he would have won in AOTC, but he couldnt. And Dooku would also lose to Sids, but again not by some huge margin. IMO Dooku has better lightsaber skills than Sids but is way behind him in terms of force ability.

Originally posted by Escape81
Furthermore, Vious -

A single repulsorpod is roughly twice as large as one of the generators that Dooku threw at Yoda. He struggled to rip those free - as well as the debris from the roof of the hangar.

Sidious tossed three or four repulsorpods with ease at Yoda. To top it off, he was able to do something Dooku couldn't in his duel in AotC. He managed to force Yoda on the defensive at various points in their lightsaber duel, managed to strike him, managed to disarm him, and caused a stalemate.

He forced Yoda to flee.

The point is, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in the force. His skills with a saber aren't exactly sub-par, either, combine the two - and he would defeat his apprentice.

He dies at seven. That's the bottom line.

A quote that will blow your argument out of the water?

Yoda: Size matters not. . .

Yoda: Judge me by my size, you should not. . .

This was to Vious point. (I'm a slow writer)

So you basically say that a jedi can move anything in the galaxy with their mind alone? Why didn't anyone but Yoda do such things? A jedi cannot move a planet, tell me, where is the proof that a jedi can do anything just if he wants to except for Yoda's quote? Tell me, where is the proof? Prove to me that he wasn't just encouraging Luke.... You see, people is fascinated by Luke Skywalker's feats, like ripping out an engine from a space ship or tripping AT-AT's with the force. But if all those things and their size were insignificant to the force, then why is he ALMOST the only one to have done such feats and why is it incredible?

Why would he need to? Anakin didn't need to make a comparison, and it doesn't even matter, Anakin was wrong, he was not above Obi-Wan either so my point still stands....

Yes it was when he was not selected as a master.

So when Luke says, "No, it's impossible" when Vader tells him that he is his father, it is impossible?

Yoda only mentioned size, not weight. If something weights incredibly much then that is what is keeping Yoda from lifting it directly. For example, if the size or weight doesn't matter then why would Yoda have more trouble catching that big tube than catching one of those pods in the senate chamber? That pod had even MORE force behind it, Dooku just let that big object fall, Sidious tossed this pod against Yoda. If it truly didn't matter then Yoda would have just tossed it away as easily as if someone tried to knock him over by tossing a stone.

Originally posted by kamikz
So you basically say that a jedi can move anything in the galaxy with their mind alone? Why didn't anyone but Yoda do such things? A jedi cannot move a planet, tell me, where is the proof that a jedi can do anything just if he wants to except for Yoda's quote? Tell me, where is the proof? Prove to me that he wasn't just encouraging Luke.... You see, people is fascinated by Luke Skywalker's feats, like ripping out an engine from a space ship or tripping AT-AT's with the force. But if all those things and their size were insignificant to the force, then why is he ALMOST the only one to have done such feats and why is it incredible?

Why would he need to? Anakin didn't need to make a comparison, and it doesn't even matter, Anakin was wrong, he was not above Obi-Wan either so my point still stands....

Yes it was when he was not selected as a master.

So when Luke says, "No, it's impossible" when Vader tells him that he is his father, it is impossible?

Yoda only mentioned size, not weight. If something weights incredibly much then that is what is keeping Yoda from lifting it directly. For example, if the size or weight doesn't matter then why would Yoda have more trouble catching that big tube than catching one of those pods in the senate chamber? That pod had even MORE force behind it, Dooku just let that big object fall, Sidious tossed this pod against Yoda. If it truly didn't matter then Yoda would have just tossed it away as easily as if someone tried to knock him over by tossing a stone.

That is why Yoda is Yoda. It depends on the potential and the skill to do so. Dooku to the potential he had and became one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith.

A quote that will blow your argument out of the water?

Yoda: Size matters not. . .

Yoda: Judge me by my size, you should not. . .

Oh yes. . . that just rips up my argument.

Maybe you just don't understand.

Dooku had more difficulty chucking a smaller object than Sidious, who chucked three or four repulsorpods - one of which, by the way - was bigger than Dooku's "generator".

So, no. It doesn't do anything to my argument.

Sidious is better than his apprentice. Better than Dooku. Dooku dies at seven.