But God had higher purposes for us than for us to submit to the sinful nature. God made us the way we are and understands that sometimes we stumble, but that is why he forgives us. This is the grace of God. Without it we would have no hope.
Guilt trip? I think you should feel guilty for killing someone or committing other sins until you repent. Read my last post. God frees us from guilt after we repent. I would say not feeling guilt is a bad thing because guilt is a part of what compels us to be better people.
Originally posted by NellinatorWe learn from our mistakes and grow from them.....We don't need forgivness because there is no hell....It's fictional, so what is god gonna save us from??
But God had higher purposes for us than for us to submit to the sinful nature. God made us the way we are and understands that sometimes we stumble, but that is why he forgives us. This is the grace of God. Without it we would have no hope.
Guilt trip? I think you should feel guilty for killing someone or committing other sins until you repent. Read my last post. God frees us from guilt after we repent. I would say not feeling guilt is a bad thing because guilt is a part of what compels us to be better people.
Yet we know our mistakes from its fruits (ie. pain and therefore guilt). Can you honestly tell me that you never feel guilt? You believe that there is no hell. This is your choice. Forgiveness is needed by those who believe there is a hell. Also, feeling forgiven is theurapeutic whether God is real or not.
Originally posted by NellinatorSure I feel bad when I've caused others pain, but no need to ask forgivness anyway, doesn't the bible say god knows even before you ask??
Yet we know our mistakes from its fruits (ie. pain and therefore guilt). Can you honestly tell me that you never feel guilt? You believe that there is no hell. This is your choice. Forgiveness is needed by those who believe there is a hell. Also, feeling forgiven is theurapeutic whether God is real or not.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Doesn't the bible say god knows even before you ask??
Besides hell only means death of the body...not torment...
But yet asking is for forgiveness shows humility and surrender which God desires from us.
And where do get this assumption that hell does not include torment?
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment" Matthew 25:46. It is pretty clear.
"In hell, where he was in TORMENT.....because I am in agony in this fire" Luke 16:24. Even more clear.
"The cords of death entangled me, the ANGUISH of Sheol came upon me: I was overcome by trouble and sorrow" Psalm 116:3. Doesn't sound pleasant even in the OT.
"Because you will not ABANDON me to Sheol" Psalm 16:10. Heaven is quite obviously a better place even according to the OT.
I have never understood your position on hell.
Originally posted by Nellinator""Sheol" is a Hebrew word used for the abode of the dead. It is thought of as a place situated below the ground (e.g. Ezek. 31:15), a place of darkness, silence and forgetfulness (Job 10:21; Ps. 94:17, 88:12). Although the dead in sheol are apparently cut off from God (Ps. 88:3-5), he is not absent (Ps. 139:8), and is able to deliver souls from sheol (Ps. 16:10). It is sometimes translated as "hell"; however, it is not seen as a place of eternal punishment, and its use in the New Testament (e.g. Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:27) suggests a meaning relating simply to the power of death."
But yet asking is for forgiveness shows humility and surrender which God desires from us.
And where do get this assumption that hell does not include torment?
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment" Matthew 25:46. It is pretty clear.
"In hell, where he was in TORMENT.....because I am in agony in this fire" Luke 16:24. Even more clear."The cords of death entangled me, the ANGUISH of Sheol came upon me: I was overcome by trouble and sorrow" Psalm 116:3. Doesn't sound pleasant even in the OT.
"Because you will not ABANDON me to Sheol" Psalm 16:10. Heaven is quite obviously a better place even according to the OT.I have never understood your position on hell.
Valley of Gehenna
Hebrew.
"The word translated as "hell" in the New Testament comes from the Hebrew word "Gehenna". Gehenna meant "the valley of Hinnom", and was originally a particular valley outside Jerusalem, where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch (2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chron. 28:3;Jer. 32:35). In later Jewish literature Gehenna came to be associated with a place of torment and unquenchable fire that was to be the punishment for sinners. It was thought by many that lesser sinners might eventually be delivered from the fires of Gehenna, but by New Testament times punishment for sinners was deemed to be eternal."
Hades
Greek.
"Hades was the son of Cronos, and therefore the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. When the world was divided between the three brothers, the underworld and hell fell to Hades, while Zeus took the heavens and Poseidon, the sea.
He was formiddable in battle and took part in the fight against the Titans. Hades ruled the dead, assisted by demons over whom he had authority. He forbade his subjects to leave his domain and became enraged when anyone tried to steal his prey from him. Among mortals, he was the most hated of the gods, and gods themselves had an abhorrence of him (Iliad, XX, 61).
He was also known as Pluto. "
Hell
History of Hell
"The Teutonic Goddess of the Dead and daughter of Loki was named Hel, a Pagan god of torture and punishment. Another "L" was added when the books of the Old Testament were formulated4. The prophets who wrote the Bible did not know the word "Hell"; they used the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades, which meant the grave; also the Greek Tartaros, which was the abode of fallen angels, the underworld (inside the earth), and Gehenna, which was a valley near Jerusalem where Moloch reigned and garbage was dumped and burned. It is from this that the Christian Church has evolved the idea of "fire and brimstone" in Hell.
The Protestant Hell and the Catholic Hell are places of eternal punishment; however, the Catholics also believe there is a "Purgatory" where all souls go for a time, and a "Limbo" where unbaptized souls go. The Buddhist Hell is divided into eight sections, the first seven of which can be expiated. The ecclesiastical description of Hell is that of a horrible place of fire and torment; in Dante's Inferno, and in northern climates, it was thought to be an icy cold region, a giant refrigerator."
From The Satanic Bible Book of Lucifer 4
"A word which appears to have come from the Old English hel meaning 'concealed' (and, some suggest, 'dark hole'😉. Hell as a place of everlasting torment appears to have been an invention of the early Christians, perhaps a misunderstanding of the esoteric ABYSS which figures in Qabalistic texts and in the ancient mystery wisdom. The near equivalent to Hell in classical times was HADES, which was more of a post-mortem shadow land (where there was no torment, though gnashing of teeth) than the place of torture visualized in the modern European concept of Hell. The Hebraic Sheol has been translated in biblical texts as meaning Hell, but this translation is inaccurate."
From "Hell" in the Dictionary of Demonology by Fred Gettings
Egyptian, 2400BCE
"The pyramid texts composed by the priests of Heliopolis for the tombs of the V Dynasty c.2400 BC show [were first historical record of an idea of heaven and hell] This invention of the hell/heaven sanction by the Egyptians has been of the highest significance in subsequent moral control, and in Egypt, as with most other societies, its function was to support the monarchy"
"A History of Sin" by Oliver Thomson, Hardback Edition, Canongate Press, 1993, page 66
Sheol
Hebrew, Jewish, and therefore one of the primary sources of Christian mythology.
""Sheol" is a Hebrew word used for the abode of the dead. It is thought of as a place situated below the ground (e.g. Ezek. 31:15), a place of darkness, silence and forgetfulness (Job 10:21; Ps. 94:17, 88:12). Although the dead in sheol are apparently cut off from God (Ps. 88:3-5), he is not absent (Ps. 139:8), and is able to deliver souls from sheol (Ps. 16:10). It is sometimes translated as "hell"; however, it is not seen as a place of eternal punishment, and its use in the New Testament (e.g. Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:27) suggests a meaning relating simply to the power of death."
"Bible Facts", Heaven and Hell in the Bible, by Jenny Roberts
Sheol is the place where the dead go. There has been very little or no usage of Sheol in Satanic imagery, but it forms part of the prehistory of Hell.
Valley of Gehenna
Hebrew.
"The word translated as "hell" in the New Testament comes from the Hebrew word "Gehenna". Gehenna meant "the valley of Hinnom", and was originally a particular valley outside Jerusalem, where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch (2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chron. 28:3;Jer. 32:35). In later Jewish literature Gehenna came to be associated with a place of torment and unquenchable fire that was to be the punishment for sinners. It was thought by many that lesser sinners might eventually be delivered from the fires of Gehenna, but by New Testament times punishment for sinners was deemed to be eternal."
"Bible Facts", Heaven and Hell in the Bible, by Jenny Roberts
Hades
Greek.
"Hades was the son of Cronos, and therefore the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. When the world was divided between the three brothers, the underworld and hell fell to Hades, while Zeus took the heavens and Poseidon, the sea.
[...]
He was formiddable in battle and took part in the fight against the Titans. Hades ruled the dead, assisted by demons over whom he had authority. He forbade his subjects to leave his domain and became enraged when anyone tried to steal his prey from him. Among mortals, he was the most hated of the gods, and gods themselves had an abhorrence of him (Iliad, XX, 61).
[...]
He was also known as Pluto. "
Wordsworth Dictionary of Mythology 1994 edition
This is similar to Sheol in that all the dead go to Hades, not just sinners or saints. Afterdeath is itself separated into areas, and delivery to some of these areas is dependent on actions during ones life.
Tartaros
Greek.
"Tartaros. In Greek mythology this was a place, supposed to be as far below HADES as Heaven was above Hell, in which the Titans who had rebelled against the gods were kept prisoners. By Roman times, however, the place was sometimes equated with Hades and even used as a name for the ruler of Hades, often called PLUTO."
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Folks, if there is one thing that you all should no about me is that God did not call me to argue or debate with anyone or even attempt to prove anything.This is not my assignment from the Father. My mission is simply to TEACH AND PREACH THE WORD OF GOD AND THE GOSPEL (good news).
As far as trying to present a case, rationality and all that other stuff, I will leave that to someone else. The bottom line is this: at some point in our discussion you will have to concede that what I am saying is based on the fact the GOD SAID IT IN HIS WORD AND NOT ON ANYTHING ELSE. This is the crux of the whole antagonism that goes on on this forum. However, I am not complaining, merely stating my point of view as I see it.
Again, I am not called to PROVE THE BIBLE, THAT JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED, OR ANYTHING ELSE. This is God's responsibility not mine.
The world we live in is a rational and intelligent one with good reason. Any argument you present that is divorced from such things is doomed to failure. because it is no better than that of a child saying that the Universe is run by giant marshmellows.
You give no reason to believe what you say other than that you say that the Bible is God's work. And don't try saying that it is not you saying that, it is God, because that is just what you say, and in of itself it has no more basis than the marshmellows.
As there is no rationality, reason or intelligence behind any of your points, what you say above is wrong. At no point will anyone concede any of what you say. Why? Because without foundation, it is only gibberish.
You have failed, you are failing. You will never succeed. In fact, the only effect you are having is increasing the contempt of people for your viewpoint- and it is a well deserved contempt.
You are harming your cause. I recommend you look at your motives and your mission.
And if you are not interested in debate, I also recommend you keep the number of threads you create down. They are all on a similar subject and if you do not want to argue the toss, creating lots of them is simply spam.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The world we live in is a rational and intelligent one with good reason. Any argument you present that is divorced from such things is doomed to failure. because it is no better than that of a child saying that the Universe is run by giant marshmellows.You give no reason to believe what you say other than that you say that the Bible is God's work. And don't try saying that it is not you saying that, it is God, because that is just what you say, and in of itself it has no more basis than the marshmellows.
As there is no rationality, reason or intelligence behind any of your points, what you say above is wrong. At no point will anyone concede any of what you say. Why? Because without foundation, it is only gibberish.
You have failed, you are failing. You will never succeed. In fact, the only effect you are having is increasing the contempt of people for your viewpoint- and it is a well deserved contempt.
You are harming your cause. I recommend you look at your motives and your mission.
And if you are not interested in debate, I also recommend you keep the number of threads you create down. They are all on a similar subject and if you do not want to argue the toss, creating lots of them is simply spam.
There is no intelligence behind any of my points. Really? First off I never said that the Bible was God's "work" I said that it is God's WORD. Secondly, there is rationality, reason, and intelligence behind ALL of my points--you just have to be clued-in Ushgarak to understand them. Third, my foundation is God's Word; how many times do I have to write that. Your foundation is perhaps something else, but I DO HAVE a foundation. Like I said before you have to respect my foundation because it is based on faith just as yours is probably based on something else. Stop attacking my foundation because the Word of the Lord is forever settled in Heaven anyway whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. Finally, I have NOT failed, I am NOT failing, and I have, am, and do succeed already. I have sown God's Word into more hearts on this forum alone than I have at any other time since becoming saved. (hundreds of people have read my posts). My job is to sow the seed of God's Word into as many hearts as is efficiently feasible. And you know what? I HAVE with the Lord's help! This fact alone excites me because I know that another true Christian will water the seeds that I have sown AND GOD WILL GIVE THE INCREASE! Contempt? I don't care about folks having contempt for me I couldn't care less. I know, that I know, that my know knows--that I am doing the Lord's will. You all thought that I was just another debater, jumping on this forum to argue with folk. Nope, this couldn't be further from the truth. I am however, here to engage others in verbal exchange. I see nowhere on this forum where there is some type of mandate that each one of us debate or argue other folk as a requirement for creating and replying to posts. This is simply a religion forum where everyone is free to post whatever they wish--AS LONG AS IT IS OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE. This forum is not dubbed, "The Debate/Argue Forum." So, in conclusion Ushgarak lighten up a little dude and direct your frustrations elsewhere. I am not your enemy and you are not mine. It just amazes me that you wasted all of that time pointing me out from all of the other people that post messages. Man, I must be pretty important (although being important is NOT my aim).
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There is no intelligence behind any of my points. Really? First off I never said that the Bible was God's "work" I said that it is God's WORD. Secondly, there is rationality, reason, and intelligence behind ALL of my points--you just have to be clued-in Ushgarak to understand them. Third, my foundation is God's Word; how many times do I have to write that. Your foundation is perhaps something else, but I DO HAVE a foundation. Like I said before you have to respect my foundation because it is based on faith just as yours is probably based on something else. Stop attacking my foundation because the Word of the Lord is forever settled in Heaven anyway whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. Finally, I have NOT failed, I am NOT failing, and I have, am, and do succeed already. I have sown God's Word into more hearts on this forum alone than I have at any other time since becoming saved. (hundreds of people have read my posts). My job is to sow the seed of God's Word into as many hearts as is efficiently feasible. And you know what? I HAVE with the Lord's help! This fact alone excites me because I know that another true Christian will water the seeds that I have sown AND GOD WILL GIVE THE INCREASE! Contempt? I don't care about folks having contempt for me I couldn't care less. I know, that I know, that my know knows--that I am doing the Lord's will. You all thought that I was just another debater, jumping on this forum to argue with folk. Nope, this couldn't be further from the truth. I am however, here to engage others in verbal exchange. I see nowhere on this forum where there is some type of mandate that each one of us debate or argue other folk as a requirement for creating and replying to posts. This is simply a religion forum where everyone is free to post whatever they wish--AS LONG AS IT IS OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE. This forum is not dubbed, "The Debate/Argue Forum." So, in conclusion Ushgarak lighten up a little dude and direct your frustrations elsewhere. I am not your enemy and you are not mine. It just amazes me that you wasted all of that time pointing me out from all of the other people that post messages. Man, I must be pretty important (although being important is NOT my aim).
You are the one who needs to be less sensitive to the ways of other people. You cannot change someone else; you can only change yourself. If your faith was strong then you would not care what other people say, about you and your religion. A house build of solid rock can withstand the Earth shaking. What you have written leads me to believe that your foundation is week.
Week faith is not worth having.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveSomebody should have really added a section that explains paragraphs in the Bible...bored
There is no intelligence behind any of my points. Really? First off I never said that the Bible was God's "work" I said that it is God's WORD. Secondly, there is rationality, reason, and intelligence behind ALL of my points--you just have to be clued-in Ushgarak to understand them. Third, my foundation is God's Word; how many times do I have to write that. Your foundation is perhaps something else, but I DO HAVE a foundation. Like I said before you have to respect my foundation because it is based on faith just as yours is probably based on something else. Stop attacking my foundation because the Word of the Lord is forever settled in Heaven anyway whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. Finally, I have NOT failed, I am NOT failing, and I have, am, and do succeed already. I have sown God's Word into more hearts on this forum alone than I have at any other time since becoming saved. (hundreds of people have read my posts). My job is to sow the seed of God's Word into as many hearts as is efficiently feasible. And you know what? I HAVE with the Lord's help! This fact alone excites me because I know that another true Christian will water the seeds that I have sown AND GOD WILL GIVE THE INCREASE! Contempt? I don't care about folks having contempt for me I couldn't care less. I know, that I know, that my know knows--that I am doing the Lord's will. You all thought that I was just another debater, jumping on this forum to argue with folk. Nope, this couldn't be further from the truth. I am however, here to engage others in verbal exchange. I see nowhere on this forum where there is some type of mandate that each one of us debate or argue other folk as a requirement for creating and replying to posts. This is simply a religion forum where everyone is free to post whatever they wish--AS LONG AS IT IS OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE. This forum is not dubbed, "The Debate/Argue Forum." So, in conclusion Ushgarak lighten up a little dude and direct your frustrations elsewhere. I am not your enemy and you are not mine. It just amazes me that you wasted all of that time pointing me out from all of the other people that post messages. Man, I must be pretty important (although being important is NOT my aim).