Originally posted by kamikzThe laughing means he's overconfident, it doesn't mean God deemed him uber.
Desann couldn't kill the dark jedi in 2.1 seconds either. It takes time to kill a jedi, even for Desann in JO. They could just have made it 6 jedi coming if they wanted to. And Desann still laughed during their saber fight....
I just played that level again, and the fight does change. I saved it right before I enter the ship's door and watched that fight like 5 times. First time, Luke falls once and Desann's saber passes straight through Luke and out the other side, then proceeds to travel back through Luke and into Desann's waiting hand. Smoke and sparks everwhere. And Luke is undamaged as we later see him performing a very large jump and standing with his shoulders squared and looking quite unphased by the whole event. By the rationale of a few people, that means Desann felt Luke was an honourable enough fighter to use his wtfpwning powers of immortality he gained from the Valley on Luke in hopes he'd be able to fight him in more elaborate circumstances.
The game mechanics in the cutscenes can be changed, even without the user's consent. I've played that game enough to see it happen, and no, not on the same computer. Desann chokes Kyle canonically, though in mine, Kyle once remained on the ground, almost out of sight. The game is fallible, and Luke and Desann's duel does not have a set canonical procedure like the falling pillar or the choke are. That fight means nothing, it was used as way to keep Luke from joining Kyle in the Doomgiver. It can be said as well that Desann knew Luke was too much for him, as he ran after bringing down the floor, which Luke easily dodged. Luke was fine after the fight, and Desann ran... who sounds more powerful know?
And just because Luke couldn't sense Desann coming, doesn't mean Desann's better than him. There have been quite a few people in SW that are immune to being sensed, or have used the Force to mask their presensce. Who's to say Desann can't do that, if he's as good as he's being made out to be?
Originally posted by Tangible God
The laughing means he's overconfident, it doesn't mean God deemed him uber.I just played that level again, and the fight does change. I saved it right before I enter the ship's door and watched that fight like 5 times. First time, Luke falls once and Desann's saber passes straight through Luke and out the other side, then proceeds to travel back through Luke and into Desann's waiting hand. Smoke and sparks everwhere. And Luke is undamaged as we later see him performing a very large jump and standing with his shoulders squared and looking quite unphased by the whole event. By the rationale of a few people, that means Desann felt Luke was an honourable enough fighter to use his wtfpwning powers of immortality he gained from the Valley on Luke in hopes he'd be able to fight him in more elaborate circumstances.
The game mechanics in the cutscenes can be changed, even without the user's consent. I've played that game enough to see it happen, and no, not on the same computer. Desann chokes Kyle canonically, though in mine, Kyle once remained on the ground, almost out of sight. The game is fallible, and Luke and Desann's duel does not have a set canonical procedure like the falling pillar or the choke are. That fight means nothing, it was used as way to keep Luke from joining Kyle in the Doomgiver. It can be said as well that Desann knew Luke was too much for him, as he ran after bringing down the floor, which Luke easily dodged. Luke was fine after the fight, and Desann ran... who sounds more powerful know?
And just because Luke couldn't sense Desann coming, doesn't mean Desann's better than him. There have been quite a few people in SW that are immune to being sensed, or have used the Force to mask their presensce. Who's to say Desann can't do that, if he's as good as he's being made out to be?
You don't laugh during a saber fight if you are loosing it....
Ok so then why is Desann the greater bot? Why did Luke himself say he didn't want to fight him alone and commented his powers? Why did Luke explain to Kyle why he faced him alone if he was able to beat him?
And Luke shaking his head means as much as Desann laughing while the duel is over, it could simply have meant that Luke was sad because he failed to defeat Desann (this does not indicate that Luke would have done it, you can be sad because you loose even if someone is more powerful).
The fight does mean something, Desann stood up to Luke and made it out alive. He didn't flee from the fight, he pushed Luke away then he collapsed the roof on him, that was a smart move, there was nothing to even indicate that he was loosing. And Luke did not easily dodge it, he barley moved when it came down on him, it simply missed. Still, Desann did not see that Luke survived until after, actually, he never sees Luke coming back. Desann had to go into the off going ship, and he was laughing while he was running into it....
And WTF. I have never said that he couldn't feel him thus that makes him more powerful, I said that is the reason Luke fought him. It was not his own choice, he couldn't even sense him....
As I have said above I think Luke would take it in an "ultimate showdown". And to tell the truth I only belive this because of Luke's other accomplishments, there is really nothing to indicate that he is stronger than Desann, but it is a feeling I have that he would have taken it if the galaxy hung upon both of their shoulders....
Originally posted by kamikzI just wanna point out that Desann laughs multiple times, before, during, and in one strange instance, after the fight. He even laughed WHILE I was putting the kill move on him. This is why I often turn the volume off. It's just something the creators put in. The laughing, grunting, gasping, it doesn't mean much. Laughing while he's running into the ship could imply numerous things
You don't laugh during a saber fight if you are loosing it....Ok so then why is Desann the greater bot? Why did Luke himself say he didn't want to fight him alone and commented his powers? Why did Luke explain to Kyle why he faced him alone if he was able to beat him?
And Luke shaking his head means as much as Desann laughing while the duel is over, it could simply have meant that Luke was sad because he failed to defeat Desann (this does not indicate that Luke would have done it, you can be sad because you loose even if someone is more powerful).The fight does mean something, Desann stood up to Luke and made it out alive. He didn't flee from the fight, he pushed Luke away then he collapsed the roof on him, that was a smart move, there was nothing to even indicate that he was loosing. And Luke did not easily dodge it, he barley moved when it came down on him, it simply missed. Still, Desann did not see that Luke survived until after, actually, he never sees Luke coming back. Desann had to go into the off going ship, and he was laughing while he was running into it....
And WTF. I have never said that he couldn't feel him thus that makes him more powerful, I said that is the reason Luke fought him. It was not his own choice, he couldn't even sense him....
As I have said above I think Luke would take it in an "ultimate showdown". And to tell the truth I only belive this because of Luke's other accomplishments, there is really nothing to indicate that he is stronger than Desann, but it is a feeling I have that he would have taken it if the galaxy hung upon both of their shoulders....
Honestly, do you really believe Luke is the type of man who would jeopordize the sake of the galaxy, simply because he's wary of his enemy. If Desann was too tough for Luke defeat, then Luke would've wanted Kyle and him to find the Doomgiver together. It's not in his character to take those kinds of gambles.
And do you really think that if Desann is as powerful as he is, that he wouldn't sense Luke still alive after bringing the floor down? He knew he was alive, he distracted him, and made his escape. The ship would not depart without the leader of the invasion force. In Grievous-esquese fashion, he may have knew he wouldn't win, and decided to book it outta there. Even if he didn't you've admitted yourself Luke is the more powerful. There's only hypothetical speculation for his running, and we can't assume either way.
Also, (and I'm no expert in comparing Luke to Kyle) Kyle defeating Desann at the end of the game would place Kyle, seemingly above Luke, that is if Luke wasn't as powerful as Desann. I believe I've heard over the year that this isn't so, but again, I'm no expert on that subject.
Finally, Luke's no fool. He knows that if Desann succeeds, he'll bring about a new Empire, which was Hethrir's plan. I think that's knowledge enough to kill Desann then and there, there's no need for an ultimate showdown.
Originally posted by The Overmaster
What you gotta ask yourself is whats more powerful the Star Forge or the Valley of the Jedi? The Star Forge did devour an ENTIRE race of FORCE USERS, while the Valley has a few thousand Jedi.Anyways,I say Malak.
Imagine a Valley enhanced Revan with the added powers of the Star Forge! YAY!
Does it say anywhere that the Star Forge amplified Malak's power? I'm not saying that it didn't . . . but I don't recall, specifically, where it said that.
I dont remember the exact line, all I remember was Malak telling Revan that if Revan had been the one to discovered the power of the Star Forge he couldve been truly invincible.
I remember him saying that because I always wondered if Revan truly didnt know about that power, considering he was smarter and wiser than Malak. I think Revan knew about, but didnt want to risk being consumed/destroyed by it or something to that effect.
Originally posted by The Overmaster
I dont remember the exact line, all I remember was Malak telling Revan that if Revan had been the one to discovered the power of the Star Forge he couldve been truly invincible.I remember him saying that because I always wondered if Revan truly didnt know about that power, considering he was smarter and wiser than Malak. I think Revan knew about, but didnt want to risk being consumed/destroyed by it or something to that effect.
Aah . . . perhaps it wasn't referring to Force power. In A New Hope, the Imperial Governors share a similar theory regarding the Death Star. That, whomever controlled the station would be "the ultimate power in the universe!"
In both cases, the claims were false.
And, as I recall, Malak was forced to rely on the people in the "pods" that he used to drain their health. One would think that, if the Star Forge augmented his Force powers, he wouldn't need it.
Thus, I submit to you, that he was not "augmented" by the Star Forge.
Remember when you fight DS Bastila aboard the Star Forge? She kept on getting power boost from the Star Forge. Even Malak said it himself, something like this, "I sense your fear Bastila (or my apprentice, not sure), but it is unfounded. With the power of the Star Forge you will defeat my old master (or something like that)."
Its kinda sad, but Malak didnt really believe Bastila could beat Revan.
Anyways, you actually see some red lighting thing hit Bastila bringing her back to full health, and making her a little more resistant to your force powers (at least it seemed like to me that she became more resistant) and possibly making her force powers harder to save against. So, naturally, I assumed the same thing was fueling Malak, but they didnt show the 'red lightning'. But the proof that it had enhancing effects was there, when you fight Bassy.
I suppose Malak was subtling being fueled by the Star Forge than Ms. Lightshow overthere.
I think the SF was powering Malak like it was Bassy, but i'm not sure. Anyhoo, exactly what is meant by the "Power of the Star Forge!" is anyone's guess.
And those Jedi did serve another purpose, they were also enhancing Malak's powers.
Im not sure about the exact quote but i know it starts off like this, "See the bodies? You should recognize them from the academy. Theses were Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference. I have not let them become one with the force. (i dont know what is said after this, but i know how it ends) And when you are beaten I will do the same to you!"
Srry, i was trying to edit this into my last comment but ran outta time.
He says, "and once you are beaten, I will do the same to you. Your power feling me as I complete my conquest of the Core world!"
Something like that. If you interpret it from the right angle, then yes, it could be said that the SF allows these bodies to die, but the soul doesn't join the Force, instead, the powers of that sould feed and empower the master of the Star Forge, making them stronger.
Originally posted by Tangible God
I just wanna point out that Desann laughs multiple times, before, during, and in one strange instance, after the fight. He even laughed WHILE I was putting the kill move on him. This is why I often turn the volume off. It's just something the creators put in. The laughing, grunting, gasping, it doesn't mean much. Laughing while he's running into the ship could imply numerous thingsHonestly, do you really believe Luke is the type of man who would jeopordize the sake of the galaxy, simply because he's wary of his enemy. If Desann was too tough for Luke defeat, then Luke would've wanted Kyle and him to find the Doomgiver together. It's not in his character to take those kinds of gambles.
And do you really think that if Desann is as powerful as he is, that he wouldn't sense Luke still alive after bringing the floor down? He knew he was alive, he distracted him, and made his escape. The ship would not depart without the leader of the invasion force. In Grievous-esquese fashion, he may have knew he wouldn't win, and decided to book it outta there. Even if he didn't you've admitted yourself Luke is the more powerful. There's only hypothetical speculation for his running, and we can't assume either way.
Also, (and I'm no expert in comparing Luke to Kyle) Kyle defeating Desann at the end of the game would place Kyle, seemingly above Luke, that is if Luke wasn't as powerful as Desann. I believe I've heard over the year that this isn't so, but again, I'm no expert on that subject.
Finally, Luke's no fool. He knows that if Desann succeeds, he'll bring about a new Empire, which was Hethrir's plan. I think that's knowledge enough to kill Desann then and there, there's no need for an ultimate showdown.
You always talk about what YOU do during the fight, but that doesn't mean anything. Once in Zelda I used a normal bottle to deflect Ganondorf's powerful blasts then defeated him with a hammer, when the master sword is the only weapon that actually can.....
Desann is set to talk and to laugh during the duel with Kyle, with Luke he ONLY laughs (never says his typicall taunts) and he does it always at the same places.....
They would have gone together, but there was to much for either of them to do and they didn't have time to go together. Besides, they didn't actually plan to find Desann personally here. It was not Luke's choice to fight Desann, so you can't say that he confronted him,, rather he was forced to as he said himself. And killing Desann was not the only way of stopping the future Empire. By destroying the Doomgiver Kyle pretty much stopped the invasion from succeeding...
There are alot of things that happened here. Sidious didn't feel that Vader would kill him when he was frying Luke, Maul didn't sense Obi's plan to jump on him, Anakin didn't sense Obi-Wan still being alive under that big balcony.....
And Desann was about to go down to destroy the jedi temple, he had a job to do. Either he thought that Luke was dead (hence the laughing) and he went into the ship. I mean, common, what would he have to do for us NOT to belive he escaped? Stand there and just look silly?
And fleeing doesn't mean your loosing either, Dooku and Mace is an example. Dooku didn't want to take any risks with Mace thus he escaped. Besides, Desann pretty much had the better of Luke at that fight......
I know, but Luke wanted Kyle to go with him, I don't really think you can say that he was fully prepared for this kind of fight. I don't know how to describe it, but the only thing that keeps me from saying that Desann is better than Luke is Luke's earlier accomplishments and "the way of thinking so highly about Desann". I've always thought he was kind of bad (after listening to all the earlier KMC members), but now I'm actually realising he ain't that bad, not at all......
Well the fact that after 1 hour practising with the force (after not having it at all for 9 years) he is able to grip Desann's most powerful dark jedi student, defeat her in saber combat, and lots of other thugs, dark jedi, stormtroopers. He was able to bring down the inside members of the doomgiver by himself. His powers grew ridicilousley fast. I don't think he is above Luke, I think his duel with Desann was won with a thanks to his quick wits as we have witnessed earlier and in other games. (Kyle very possible used that beam or crushed a pillar on him, as I said before, a pillar that used to stand in the background is crushed during the ending scene). His powers only helped him against Desann's, and his saber skills could hold out against Desann's.....
Originally posted by kamikzI'm not saying my version is the be all end all. I'm explaining to you that the game is falible, and susceptible to unintentional alterations.
You always talk about what YOU do during the fight, but that doesn't mean anything. Once in Zelda I used a normal bottle to deflect Ganondorf's powerful blasts then defeated him with a hammer, when the master sword is the only weapon that actually can.....
Desann is set to talk and to laugh during the duel with Kyle, with Luke he ONLY laughs (never says his typicall taunts) and he does it always at the same places.....They would have gone together, but there was to much for either of them to do and they didn't have time to go together. Besides, they didn't actually plan to find Desann personally here. It was not Luke's choice to fight Desann, so you can't say that he confronted him,, rather he was forced to as he said himself. And killing Desann was not the only way of stopping the future Empire. By destroying the Doomgiver Kyle pretty much stopped the invasion from succeeding...
There are alot of things that happened here. Sidious didn't feel that Vader would kill him when he was frying Luke, Maul didn't sense Obi's plan to jump on him, Anakin didn't sense Obi-Wan still being alive under that big balcony.....
And Desann was about to go down to destroy the jedi temple, he had a job to do. Either he thought that Luke was dead (hence the laughing) and he went into the ship. I mean, common, what would he have to do for us NOT to belive he escaped? Stand there and just look silly?
And fleeing doesn't mean your loosing either, Dooku and Mace is an example. Dooku didn't want to take any risks with Mace thus he escaped. Besides, Desann pretty much had the better of Luke at that fight......I know, but Luke wanted Kyle to go with him, I don't really think you can say that he was fully prepared for this kind of fight. I don't know how to describe it, but the only thing that keeps me from saying that Desann is better than Luke is Luke's earlier accomplishments and "the way of thinking so highly about Desann". I've always thought he was kind of bad (after listening to all the earlier KMC members), but now I'm actually realising he ain't that bad, not at all......
Well the fact that after 1 hour practising with the force (after not having it at all for 9 years) he is able to grip Desann's most powerful dark jedi student, defeat her in saber combat, and lots of other thugs, dark jedi, stormtroopers. He was able to bring down the inside members of the doomgiver by himself. His powers grew ridicilousley fast. I don't think he is above Luke, I think his duel with Desann was won with a thanks to his quick wits as we have witnessed earlier and in other games. (Kyle very possible used that beam or crushed a pillar on him, as I said before, a pillar that used to stand in the background is crushed during the ending scene). His powers only helped him against Desann's, and his saber skills could hold out against Desann's.....
I may be mistaken, but what's the quote from the game that states Luke wanted Kyle to go with him?
As leader of the Reborn, and virtual second in command next to Hethrir, why would Luke put Desann as second priority? He was a trained Dark Jedi where as the Reborn had like what, a few months of training and artificial abilities? Even Vandar, a wise Jedi Master, put stopping Malak above destroying the Star Forge. Yoda put stopping Dooku above winning the raging battle going on around him. You cut off the head, the body tends to die. Why Luke would think otherwise I have no idea.
I'm talking about sensing if someone's alive or not, I'm talking about sensing intentions. Sidious was too focused to sense Vader's intentions. Maul didn't sense Obi-Wan's intention. Anakin was rather caught up fighting Dooku. Not to mention there's no way to tell what Anakin sensed, as it is never stated. If Desann is as powerful as you, and I too, think he is, why would he not be able to sense if Luke was dead or not?
And if Desann had the better of Luke in that fight, and if he was about to embark on a job to erradicate the Jedi, why didn't he finish off their Leader and top Master, when he had the chance? i.e the dead head=dead body idea.
As to Kyle's ridiculous powers: He had been cut off for about 2 years actually. If this is about 9 or 10 years after Endor, then yes, 2 to 3. He also received a helpful kick-start from the Valley. And the Reborn were undisciplened, barely trained, and artificially enfused with the Force. I'm not sure if it's quite canon or not, but Kyle also uses several Dark Side attacks, as does Desann. In a side note, as Luke doesn't use any Dark Side moves, it's quite something that he fought Desann for as long as he did, and lived, despite the fact that Kyle had to use them. Tavion was the apprentice to Kyle's equal, and she had not had the amount of training Kyle had. These reasons help explain the carnage Kyle leaves in the game.
Originally posted by Tangible God
I'm not saying my version is the be all end all. I'm explaining to you that the game is falible, and susceptible to unintentional alterations.I may be mistaken, but what's the quote from the game that states Luke wanted Kyle to go with him?
As leader of the Reborn, and virtual second in command next to Hethrir, why would Luke put Desann as second priority? He was a trained Dark Jedi where as the Reborn had like what, a few months of training and artificial abilities? Even Vandar, a wise Jedi Master, put stopping Malak above destroying the Star Forge. Yoda put stopping Dooku above winning the raging battle going on around him. You cut off the head, the body tends to die. Why Luke would think otherwise I have no idea.
I'm talking about sensing if someone's alive or not, I'm talking about sensing intentions. Sidious was too focused to sense Vader's intentions. Maul didn't sense Obi-Wan's intention. Anakin was rather caught up fighting Dooku. Not to mention there's no way to tell what Anakin sensed, as it is never stated. If Desann is as powerful as you, and I too, think he is, why would he not be able to sense if Luke was dead or not?
And if Desann had the better of Luke in that fight, and if he was about to embark on a job to erradicate the Jedi, why didn't he finish off their Leader and top Master, when he had the chance? i.e the dead head=dead body idea.
As to Kyle's ridiculous powers: He had been cut off for about 2 years actually. If this is about 9 or 10 years after Endor, then yes, 2 to 3. He also received a helpful kick-start from the Valley. And the Reborn were undisciplened, barely trained, and artificially enfused with the Force. I'm not sure if it's quite canon or not, but Kyle also uses several Dark Side attacks, as does Desann. In a side note, as Luke doesn't use any Dark Side moves, it's quite something that he fought Desann for as long as he did, and lived, despite the fact that Kyle had to use them. Tavion was the apprentice to Kyle's equal, and she had not had the amount of training Kyle had. These reasons help explain the carnage Kyle leaves in the game.
Fair enough.
He told him that neither should take him on alone, not that he wanted Kyle to go with him, but IF they confronted him they should be 2 on 1.
Ok so that proves Luke was not holding back.... But there are still factors, like stopping the Doomgiver, stopping Admiral Fyyar, stopping the dark jedi from attacking. Killing Desann alone wouldn't solve it....
I thought you just recently said that masking there precense does not indicate power.... Luke could not be sensed in the force if I remember it right, he could at least mask himself in the force.....
As I said, he thought he was dead. And Rouge Squardon was incoming against the Doomgiver, and other rebellion/republic armies where heading this way. Desann had to speed up on destroying the jedi academy, even when he did it the fastest he could it was to slow....
Yes this is basically what I meant. Kyle got even more power than before from the valley, actually a ridicilouse amount of power. Desann stated that he was above his state when he defeated Jerec, who without the valleys power could wave his hand and crash a ship and a landing doc, and by raising his hand immobilize a powerful jedi master while the jedi was fighting...... (Vader did this, but it was against a little kid with not near as much experience).
And Desann laughs because he is made to, and at similar places (like the end).