Originally posted by Escape81
Not to be rude, Nai, but this is beautiful.You have outright evidence stating that Sidious > Ragnos. So, now that your argument has been, quite frankly, blown to hell, you're going to argue that Ragnos wins because "the most powerful does not always win!!111!11".
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
Hard.
LOL Escape.
Wanna play the arrogant b**** now ?
Read the post I've type down here before Lightsnake came up with Veitch direct statement and you mind find out that still the author's don't have any permission to give "official" statements about the power of certain persons because said "persons" are the property of LFL and LFL doesn't give statements like that.
So to make it clear: I could just stay with my opinion and say Ragnos is the most powerful until Lucas himself shows up and says Sidious is the most powerful - and even then I could site Lucas own quote how he "doesn't get involved too much in the EU" and declare his opinion baseless.
There is virtually no way to install something at the absolute and undeniable truth - not in the real world, not in the SW universe. I've already told you why this is the case and I'm still impressed by your complete inability to accept this.
Aside of this it's nice how "changing an opinion" now is a "fall" or some kind of "weakness". Unless this board is part of some political system in which dumb people never change their opinions even if you smack them with the hardest evidence contradicting their opinion and see their own idiocy and ignorance as strength - I don't see what's so wrong with changing opinions. You might try to explain this to me hovering around in your cloud of imagined superiority. If you want some philosophical smackdown just ask for it instead of giving some underhand comments like this, dude. Because as far as I've seen you've exactly done nothing here except to cling to Lightsnake coat-tails.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
[B]A bit more from Veitch:
I think that with the Sith, knowledge and darkside "wisdom" are more important than "strength". Their greatest power lies in being able to seduce their enemies (and friends) to the dark side -- not use physical force against them. Palpatine was one of the best ever at that. Comparatively, Exar Kun was a rather minor adept with an overblown idea of his own importance. ;-)I have the feeling someone doesn't like Exar...
Of course Veitch doesn't like Exar. What do you expect from the guy that stated that Anderson "wasted" his characters in the Sith War ?
In all seriousness though, we've proven Palpatine has the edge and removed some utterly ridiculous restraints. Nai is absolutely right: Power doesn't guarantee a victory, it gives an edge and now we know Ragnos won't be taking on Palpatine, Luke and Yoda at once...Honestly, this's what I've been trying to show all along. There's nothing saying Exar'd beat Marka 100 percent of the time, or PAlpatine beating them. We know for certain they're stronger, but there are other factors.
Meh...in all seriousness: Who did ever honestly argue that Ragnos on his own would defeat DE Sidious, NJO / DN Luke and Yoda all at once in direct confrontation ?
In fact I can remember that I once stated that Yoda on his own might be able to take Ragnos (or virtually any Ancient Sith) down on his own because of a single line in the ROTS novel talking about a "change in philosophy" among the Sith with the result that if you use the light against them the result is that their darkness gets stronger (or something like that). And I still remember that fights like "NJO Luke vs Ragnos" or similar topics where debates that required some long breath of all participants.
Nai, I remember quite clearly you saying you didn't see Ragnos losing a fight against Shimrra, DN Luke AND Exar at once...
But yes, glad we're seeing where the other is coming from. However, bearing all this in mind, until we get something else, I think it'd be fair, in power at least to put Ragnos below Palpatine and Exar, given his own creator's feelings and toughts on the subject. This is, of course, subject to change if LFL should decide, of course. I will agree that Exar had nowhere near as much Dark Side knowledge that Palp and Marka did, but apparently he's stronger than the latter
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nai, I remember quite clearly you saying you didn't see Ragnos losing a fight against Shimrra, DN Luke AND Exar at once...
Huh ? Where did we ever had a thread about this. If I said this it was clearly not meant seriously.
But yes, glad we're seeing where the other is coming from. However, bearing all this in mind, until we get something else, I think it'd be fair, in power at least to put Ragnos below Palpatine and Exar, given his own creator's feelings and toughts on the subject. This is, of course, subject to change if LFL should decide, of course. I will agree that Exar had nowhere near as much Dark Side knowledge that Palp and Marka did, but apparently he's stronger than the latter
We'll always reach the same deadlock in argumentation by limiting everything to such things as "strength" and "power".
Power, strength, potential, experience aren't enough to determine the outcome of a fight.
We've seen less experienced people winning (Anakin vs Dooku), we've seen less powerful people winning (Mace vs Sidious), we've seen people with less knowledge winning (Luke vs Sidious in DE) and we've seen people with less potential winning (Obi-Wan vs Anakin).
Bottom line: Narrative causality doesn't help in versus fights.
And in this case. What is it that makes Sidious the "most powerful" (by whatever margin) ? Following Veitchs comments it's the fact that he has a larger amount of knowledge. Then he doesn't necisserily need more potential (or raw power) than the others to be the "most powerful" - just a knowledge advantage. The Jedi are a good analogy here. Yoda is said to be the most powerful Jedi while Anakin's raw power clearly exceeded his (as stated in TPM).
When we know get back to the original topic. Sidious has the advantage of having more knowledge (proven now) but he doesn't necessirily more potential. Ragnos clearly has more experience in fighting other Dark Siders (as Sidious precisely just fought Maul as far as we know), more melee combat experience and more force combat experience. Who wins ? If there's just a small gap between both individuals in terms of power (at least the source material and Veitch's comments hint this) Ragnos might still defeat him due to a greater experience in direct confrontations.
Originally posted by kamikz
I thought Ragnos was unchallenged, shouldn't that mean he never fought anyone during his reign? The only fight we know is Simus isn't it?
Even if he didn't fight anybody "during his reign" (which is still an assumption): He possibly had more than a century (or several centuries) before his reign to do so. It's very unlikely that he even reached the position to battle with Simus for the DLotS title without prior duels or wars in a society were everyone and their mothers were given the titles of "warriors" and "warlords" by the narrator.
It was a while back, Nai, aqnd considering the general debate we were involved in, I'm not exactly sure you're recalling it correctly...hell, I saw people on this board once claiming Ragnos could take Luke, Palp AND Exar at once!
Well, it's probably a given Sidious and Plagueis fought sometimes, even if not to the death-setup like how Sidious and Maul did so- and Palpatine held his own rather well with Yoda and Mace for a time, even if his saber skills didn't exceed theirs. While I admit Palpatine loved to set things up so he didn't have to fight, he still kept himself ready to and when he had to or wanted to, he focused mainly on tactical ability. And in DE, his physical and saber abilities have been enhanced, both artificially and thanks to his young, healthy body when it's not ravaged completely. Sure Ragnos MIGHT still defeat Sidious, but Sidious could also defeat Ragnos. It's likely Ragnos had fought his share of fights, readily given...however, AFTER he became Dark Lord, before his death, it could've been over a decade, or even most of the span of a century since he truly fought a battle.
Since knowledge in the Dark Side, would generally translate to power and abilities...Ragnos may have more experiences in a fight, but that is certainly not the deciding factor in a fight between them.
And we now know that around three hundred constitutes a 'ripe old age' for a Sith
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was a while back, Nai, aqnd considering the general debate we were involved in, I'm not exactly sure you're recalling it correctly...hell, I saw people on this board once claiming Ragnos could take Luke, Palp AND Exar at once!
Wasn't that in this funny thread when we had all of them standing on the top of the Himalaya on different mountains ? You don't really expect serious comments in threads like this, do you ?
Well, it's probably a given Sidious and Plagueis fought sometimes, even if not to the death-setup like how Sidious and Maul did so- and Palpatine held his own rather well with Yoda and Mace for a time, even if his saber skills didn't exceed theirs.
Sidious still had to murder his master while he was sleeping and Maul wasn't a worthy opponent exactly. While Yoda and Mace both (Mace proven, Yoda hinted) disarmed him.
And as I said: Ragnos is a monster in terms of physical shape at least as he appears in the sources.
While I admit Palpatine loved to set things up so he didn't have to fight, he still kept himself ready to and when he had to or wanted to, he focused mainly on tactical ability.
Do you really think his tactical abilities would exceed those of the guy who kept an Empire with at least 10 quite powerful Sith Lord under his belt for more than a century. Not to mention that raw channeled agression with the needed amount of muscles behind it often enoughs "trumps" the more "refined" ways of fighting (Luke vs Vader, Anakin vs Dooku)
And in DE, his physical and saber abilities have been enhanced, both artificially and thanks to his young, healthy body when it's not ravaged completely. Sure Ragnos MIGHT still defeat Sidious, but Sidious could also defeat Ragnos. It's likely Ragnos had fought his share of fights, readily given...however, AFTER he became Dark Lord, before his death, it could've been over a decade, or even most of the span of a century since he truly fought a battle.
Well...Sidious last lightsaber action as far as we know happened 3 decades before DE and (ROTS + DE) he was losing 3 out of 4 lightsaber fights.
Since knowledge in the Dark Side, would generally translate to power and abilities...Ragnos may have more experiences in a fight, but that is certainly not the deciding factor in a fight between them.
Certainly ? All we have seen mattering in a melee fight concerning force powers either happens on an "unconcious" level (reaction) or is very basic use of the force (enchanced speed or strength). Given two opponents with very close force knowledge / power I have to give a melee confrontation (!) to the guy who has the greater natural physical strength and more melee combat experience - in this case Ragnos.
Even if you take a fight like Dooku vs Anakin + Obi-Wan in ROTS we see that Dooku outclasses them both by far in enchancing his natural phyiscal abilties. He's physically weaker, has less potential (or raw power) than Anakin and still manages to block Anakin's two handed strike + an attack of Kenobi at once using just one hand. And the only reason I see for this is that he's more experienced in melee combat than both of them.
And we now know that around three hundred constitutes a 'ripe old age' for a Sith
Yes. But what's the "equivalent" in terms of human age ? Sadow must be well over 100 years old in GAotS/FotSE and he seems to be in his "best years" so they might get 200-250 years old giving Ragnos 100-150 years of experience before starting his reign. Maybe even 200.
And well. What would you consider a "ripe old age" for a human ? 100 years ? As we've seen people coming from considerable powerful blood-lines (forcewise) can easily become twice as old (Vima-Da-Boda) which would make it at least possible that Ragnos was 300, 400 or even 500 years old when he died.
The debate was going rather seriously for a bit, and you certainly didn't seem to be joking...
Yeah, but so were Shimrra, Kar Vastor, Uda-Khalid...physical size and strength alone means little to Jedi...hell, Obi-wan killed a freaking rancor on his own. And Palpatine killed Plagueis the way he did because he viewed it as more ironic and humiliating for Plagueis
Tactical abilities in an actual duel? We've never seen Ragnos fight and since I doubt formal duels between Sith Lords are are anything other than even ground...the most tactics we saw from that empire was Naga chucking stone blocks. And Palpatine's mastered all seven forms, so he could likely be adept to counter anything fierce and unrefined...hell, look at Yoda.
We know Palpatine had duels in the interim between the PT and OT. He only kept his personal trophies in his room on Byss and he had quite a few of them. And in the interim, there wasn't a day where Palpatine didn't spend trying to further himself in some way.
The idea for Dooku being able to do that is before that, Kenobi and Skywalker are holding back to trick him. When Anakin goes off on him, Dooku falls. And once again: Palpatine was able to square off with people in the golden age of saber dueling and attained mastery of the seven forms. And this is DE, where he'd certainly improved his swordsmanship AND is in an artifically strengthened, youmg, healthy body, without most of his old disadvantages.
I doubt Sadow's much older than a century, given what we know now. It's probable he was quite young when he saw Simus fall to Marka. And Adas was an extremely powerful Sith Lord, and was considered ancient at three hundred. Jedi themselves have been shown to have the ability to live longer, but there's no hint of proof a Sith could do that. No matter how old Ragnos really is, he still served under another Dark Lord at another point in his life-one he did not kill- and isn't the oldest Sith or Dark Jedi we've heard of. Hell, volfe Karkko was anywhere from 1000 to 2000 and got bisected by Quin vos in a melee fight
LOL Escape.
Wanna play the arrogant b**** now ?
No, lol. As I've already told you, the vast majority of the people here believe that to be your title. I wouldn't want to compete with the reigning champion.
Read the post I've type down here before Lightsnake came up with Veitch direct statement and you mind find out that still the author's don't have any permission to give "official" statements about the power of certain persons because said "persons" are the property of LFL and LFL doesn't give statements like that.
They are the creations of these specific authors. Meaning that, while LFL surely has the legal power to revoke and retcon statements made by those authors in relation to their characters, it has yet to happen, making the authors "the supreme authority" so far on topics related to their characters.
Meaning your opinion is much like mine and Lightsnake's, and anyone else's on the subject.
Worthless.
So to make it clear: I could just stay with my opinion and say Ragnos is the most powerful until Lucas himself shows up and says Sidious is the most powerful - and even then I could site Lucas own quote how he "doesn't get involved too much in the EU" and declare his opinion baseless.
Of course you could. You've always kept your opinions, Nai. But, as we've seen - on a lot of topics regarding Palpatine - you've been quite wrong. As I told you, I remember the "Dooku pwns his master!" campaign that you used to promote quite actively. And we proved that wrong, didn't we?
Read above. Your opinion (mine included, as well) is absolutely nothing in the wake of a statement of a higher authority.
Aside of this it's nice how "changing an opinion" now is a "fall" or some kind of "weakness".
It is, for someone such as yourself who has a notorious reputation for passing off his opinion as fact. If that were true, you wouldn't need to change it.
Unless this board is part of some political system in which dumb people never change their opinions even if you smack them with the hardest evidence contradicting their opinion and see their own idiocy and ignorance as strength - I don't see what's so wrong with changing opinions.
There's nothing wrong with changing opinions. I myself do it all the time. Hell, I used to think that Ragnos pwned all too. But, the difference is, I don't pass myself off as "an authority", like you do.
You might try to explain this to me hovering around in your cloud of imagined superiority.
Imagined superiority? Lol, Nai, I believe I've said, time and time and time again that - in vast cases - you are my superior. Maybe you'd like me to fetch some quotes of me actually saying this?
If you want some philosophical smackdown just ask for it instead of giving some underhand comments like this, dude. Because as far as I've seen you've exactly done nothing here except to cling to Lightsnake coat-tails.
Most - if not all - of the credit goes to Lightsnake for his work here. Again, I'm not like you Nai. I try not to be arrogant. But, in all fairness, I was helping to lay the foundations several of the Revan, Ragnos, and Sidious campaigns - insofar as accurate depictions of their power - before Lightsnake even got here.
But, he is undeniably the source of the destruction of these misguided beliefs. And kudos to him.
Originally posted by Escape81
No, lol. As I've already told you, the vast majority of the people here believe that to be your title. I wouldn't want to compete with the reigning champion.
The "vast majority" ? The "vast majority" is a group of people which IQ is equal to the IQ of the dumbest devided through the number of the "vast majorities" members. I thought I've explained some things to you via PM - obviously you are just ignorant.
They are the creations of these specific authors. Meaning that, while LFL surely has the legal power to revoke and retcon statements made by those authors in relation to their characters, it has yet to happen, making the authors "the supreme authority" so far on topics related to their characters.Meaning your opinion is much like mine and Lightsnake's, and anyone else's on the subject.
Worthless.
And again you are ignorant. If Lucas steps in and hands some people pages filled with material concerning ancient Sith, their possibly abilities and so on - who did design the Ancient Sith there. Hell...is Veitch or Lucas himself the ultimate source of knowledge when it comes to Palpatine ?
Of course you could. You've always kept your opinions, Nai. But, as we've seen - on a lot of topics regarding Palpatine - you've been quite wrong. As I told you, I remember the "Dooku pwns his master!" campaign that you used to promote quite actively. And we proved that wrong, didn't we?
Wow. The blatant master of lies is on the road again. I've changed my opinion quite often even during a single thread. Nice how you didn't notice it. Can you tell me why I should waste my time with somebody who has a large problem with his own cognition ? No ?
And wow...I'm still pretty sure Dooku would take down Sidious in a lightsaber fight. Anything to proof me wrong ? No ? Damn it. So I can still be write ? It's nice how you try to fight my opinions without knowing what this opinions are based on - and without even care about it.
Read above. Your opinion (mine included, as well) is absolutely nothing in the wake of a statement of a higher authority.
I guess you get yourself some dictionary and look up the difference between "opinion" and "fact". Higher authority ? Where does the higher authority of, let's say, Anderson come from to judge Sidious ? Did he create Sidious ? Did he even write about Sidious ? No. But he's a "higher authority" on the topic than, let's say, Lightsnake ?
Authority has to be based on something and if there is no base there is no authority. Simple as that. If an author himself admits that something is just his personal opinion than it's exactly his personal opinion and nothing more. The single fact that some person did write something about a certain universe doesn't equate some "higher authority" considering this universe. And it's getting especially funny when said "higher authorities" say themselves they really can't give educated comments on certain topics.
The only "higher authority" concerning SW issues is Lucas. And that's it. Not Anderson, not Veitch, not Wallace, not random-author-number 2392. Lucas.
It is, for someone such as yourself who has a notorious reputation for passing off his opinion as fact. If that were true, you wouldn't need to change it.
Your level of ignorance tops everything I've seen so far. Check the last PM I sent and if you chose to ignore my words anyways why you try to discuss with me ? Either my personal philosophy concerning debates is clearly beyond that what you can perceive and understand or you plain and simply chose to be an ignorant. In both cases I don't see any reason to waste my precious free-time with you.
There's nothing wrong with changing opinions. I myself do it all the time. Hell, I used to think that Ragnos pwned all too. But, the difference is, I don't pass myself off as "an authority", like you do.
No ? You are just arrogant enough to think yourself to be able to look into my head and have inside into my thinking process. But that's no arrogance or "pass yourself of as an authority". I'd like to point out that I've answered the same bullshit just before - why didn't you read the answer ?
Imagined superiority? Lol, Nai, I believe I've said, time and time and time again that - in vast cases - you are my superior. Maybe you'd like me to fetch some quotes of me actually saying this?
Did I ever b**** you because I owned your sorry ass in some dabate ? Did you ever see me coming in here "Hey, Escape. Your opinion was wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong *masturbates*" ? No ? Did you ever see me digging up months old topics and nail a "Look how wrong you were" on your forehead ? No ? Hell...then why do you think you have to do something like that ?
Again, I'm not like you Nai. I try not to be arrogant. But, in all fairness, I was helping to lay the foundations several of the Revan, Ragnos, and Sidious campaigns - insofar as accurate depictions of their power - before Lightsnake even got here.
No. You are not like me. I'm an actor and act arrogant in search for knowledge - Socrates reversed, Advocatus Diaboli. You - unlikely me - think you know something and if some "higher authority" comes and confirms it you have to act arrogant because you - unlike me - are in fact arrogant. And sorry. I can't be arrogant. If you say I'm superior to you yourself than I'm not "arrogant" just realistic.
And of course in contrary to you I don't have to claim to have inside to your process of thinking - otherwise I would have to say that you are on some personal vendetta against me, digging up some 6 month old topic to "proof that I was wrong". That, my friend, is a sure sign of an weak-willed, pathetic character on search for acknowledgement of his own capabilities by try to belittle others. But of course I can't know that because I can't look into your head, right ?
If you want to go on with making a fool out of yourself you can always count on my assistance. Without being rude, of course. Lmao.
One thing: Lucas collaborated on several issues, and on DE as well...he certainly designed Darth Bane and the NSE 1000 years prior to the PT...however, on the Ancient Empire, according to Veitch, they only mgot the basics...that there WAS an ancient Empire, what they could and couldn't do and Anderson filled in the blanks
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The debate was going rather seriously for a bit, and you certainly didn't seem to be joking...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advocatus_Diaboli
Read and be enlightened...Maybe you get it into your head as your friend Escape seems to be unable to do it.
Yeah, but so were Shimrra, Kar Vastor, Uda-Khalid...physical size and strength alone means little to Jedi...hell, Obi-wan killed a freaking rancor on his own. And Palpatine killed Plagueis the way he did because he viewed it as more ironic and humiliating for Plagueis
You can't compare a Rancor to somebody who is either a powerful force user (Kar, Ragnos) or completely immune to force attacks. Kar pretty much wiped the floor with Mace and Shimrra essentially did the same with Luke.
And "humiliating" for Plagueis. If you can give me a reason for "humiliating" dead people I will believe that he did it because of that. For all we know he was just to weak (at this certain point) to kill his master in a "normal" fight.
Tactical abilities in an actual duel? We've never seen Ragnos fight and since I doubt formal duels between Sith Lords are are anything other than even ground...the most tactics we saw from that empire was Naga chucking stone blocks. And Palpatine's mastered all seven forms, so he could likely be adept to counter anything fierce and unrefined...hell, look at Yoda.
What "tactical abilities" did we see from Sidious ? That Yoda forced him to take some positions of advantage that he might or might not have reached casually (like the middle of the Chancellors pod which he reached because he was closer to it than Yoda when they started their duel) ?
We know Palpatine had duels in the interim between the PT and OT. He only kept his personal trophies in his room on Byss and he had quite a few of them. And in the interim, there wasn't a day where Palpatine didn't spend trying to further himself in some way.
Not this again. We don't know under which circumstances (if he even did it) Sidious fought the Jedi and considering he had the "more important" figures all killed already there couldn't have been much contest left for him.
The idea for Dooku being able to do that is before that, Kenobi and Skywalker are holding back to trick him. When Anakin goes off on him, Dooku falls.
He still doesn't overpower Dooku by sheer strength and I've stated multiple times that's outright dumb to "hold back" facing an opponent like Dooku. Not to mention the fact that Anakin gives him a quite angry look and Obi-Wan doens't look confortable too while this attack is done.
And once again: Palpatine was able to square off with people in the golden age of saber dueling and attained mastery of the seven forms. And this is DE, where he'd certainly improved his swordsmanship AND is in an artifically strengthened, youmg, healthy body, without most of his old disadvantages.
What "golden age of saber dueling" are you talking about ? Lucas once mentioned the "Golden Age of the Jedi" but that doesn't mean "saber duelling" - more likely the exact opposite given the fact that they had no reason to practice saber vs saber fighting and hence the art of Makashi declined.
And Adas was an extremely powerful Sith Lord, and was considered ancient at three hundred. Jedi themselves have been shown to have the ability to live longer, but there's no hint of proof a Sith could do that. No matter how old Ragnos really is, he still served under another Dark Lord at another point in his life-one he did not kill- and isn't the oldest Sith or Dark Jedi we've heard of. Hell, volfe Karkko was anywhere from 1000 to 2000 and got bisected by Quin vos in a melee fight
Meh. Adas was a "pure" Sith - Ragnos wasn't. Jedi blood...you remember ? He's a "combination" of a species with some very large life-span and people that could archieve very large lightspans because of their force attunement.
And it doesn't matter if he is the oldest. It just matter how old he was or might have been compared to Sidious.
Two things: Mace was having some serious disadvantages and was in Kar's territory...Luke wasn't using the Force to enhance himself and was just plain exhausted after clearing out Shimrra's ship practically on his own. Recall, both Shimrra and Kar ended up on the ground one way or the other. And Palpatine killed Plagueis tere apparently because that was the one time Plagueis was weak and vulnerable, the one time he never saw it coming. That the great, wise, Plagueis fell asleep and that was his undoing. Palpatine vowed never to sleep himself and make Plagueis's error...hell, we know things were extremely tense between the two. We know Palpatine murdered Plagueis, it doesn't mean he HAD to.
Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin, three of the Jedi Order's best warriors ever could probably attest to Sidious's tactical abilities...
He called them skilled duelists himself. He only kept the trophies of conquests he was directly porud of from the Purge. We know he personally took their sabers when he faced them. It was rare, but we know he fought.
Well, that's what happened. they planned to trick Dooku and then slam him when he got arrogant. Anakin certainly did overpower Dooku when he sent him reeling and then grabbed him.
I'm rather certain saber abilities were in their top, considering the three greatest saber duelists the Jedi order lived there...Mace, Yoda, Dooku...Jedi as a whole may not've had the best abilities, but the elites, especially Yoda...
three hundred is still described as extremely old for the Sith whose alchemy kept them alive...this is the closest bit to any evidence we have. And remember...Ludo was apparently around as old as Naga, showing the hybrids don't age that much differently. Hell, we saw a PT Jedi kill a millenia old Dark Jedi who'd learned a great deal from the Sith arts with a move of his saber.
About Dooku versus Anakin, Anakin won because Dooku was toying with him and restraining from killing him as it seemed that he and Palpatine had plans in turning him to the dark side (the game confirms this). He showed earlier in that same duel that he was able to easily duel with both Kenobi and Obi-Wan at the same time, but simply underestimated him and did not realise that Anakin's power could increase to such an uncontrollable amount in a instance. Other factors that aided Anakin in defeating Dooku was that his style, Schien was able to counter Dooku's Makashi, he was lucky and he was the chosen one.