Originally posted by Escape81
You have absolutely NOTHING (emphasis on nothing) that accurately indicates Ragnos's power other than a single quote and that his contemporaries feared him.
This is so funny. Yours and Lightsnakes usage of logical reasoning seems to stop at a certain point where it becomes uncomfortable. So...the people "feared" Ragnos. What was the reason for this fear ? You simply ignore that question because you already know the answer.
When do people "fear" something ?
a) When they encounter something "unknown" to them. Something that possibly might be a threat for them. This is an irrational kind of fear that exists because of a "possibility".
b) When people know that there is a threat for them that they aren't able to counter or avoid. If you know there is a bomb next to you while you're bound on a chair and you know that you can't get away and the bomb will kill you - you develop fear for the moment of the explosion.
Now there is this very disturbing fact that Simus survived his fight with Ragnos. Simus knew exactly how powerful Ragnos was and, given that he was the mentor of Sadow, he could give an accurate judgement of how powerful Sadow is compared to Ragnos. Or Sadow could do that himself since he directly witnessed that fight (like Kressh) as it's told in GAotS.
And this point is important. Obviously all people have seen what Ragnos did to Simus and after that fight nobody challenged Ragnos. Why ? Because they just "feared" him ? Why would they ? They have seen him fighting for the Dark Lord title - they knew his strength considering force mastery and fighting skills. And the fact that he wasn't challenged by one of them is only a testament for the idea that none of them had the skills required to do so. And this means that he couldn't have defeated Simus with a "lucky hit" but must have pretty much wiped the floor with him - or Simus was much more stronger than all the other Sith Lords too.
So Ragnos hoovered above them all for more then a century and not because they feared him - because they knew that they couldn't beat him.
However, you (being arrogant and reluctant to believe it) want to argue the context of "power" in Sidious's case? Lol, see, I always considered that a pathetic attempt to downplay Sidious. Remember how you always accuse others of downplaying specific characters?
Excuse me. In contrary to you I see "powerful" as an ambigious statement no matter who is affected. In all prior debates concerning the topic all that I saw on this certain point was always the same:
People try to limit the comment about Ragnos ("only of his era", "only of the ancient Sith", "only in his time"😉 where no limitation is given while other limitations concerning Sidious own power are consequently ignored.
The force storm is a nice example for this. Lightsnake steps in and repeats his "Sidious mastered everything" sentence when Sidious own words in DE say that he wasn't able to completely control the last force storm he summoned which was what enabled Luke and Leia to turn the storm against him and make him lose control (Luke's own words in DE). Everything according to Lightsnakes means.
With the DS Sourcebook it's the same. The DS Sourcebook (watch the game stats - although I know they aren't canon) labels Ragnos more powerful than Sidious - it's self contradicting. Oh no. It's not because Lightsnake again did cut some part of the statement.
Quote from Lightsnake himself:
Dark side sourcebook. Outright says that Palpatine was the strongest Sith in Bane's order.
Ups. Of Bane's order ? Isn't it a pitty how this statement suddenly becomes worthless in this thread because Ragnos doesn't belong to Bane's order ?
Once again. This is the same argument with different people. You once argued that Dooku's fear of Sidious was irrelevent, and yet it was sufficient enough that Dooku didn't dare act against his master - and even had no trouble throwing himself into battle against Yoda (whom you believe to be a good ways above Sidious himself).
To create an analogy that actually fits: Imagine Dooku still being Yoda's apprentice. He watches a fight between Yoda and Sidious that Yoda loses - but Yoda stays alive. Now Dooku knows exactly what Sidious is able to do and he wants to defeat Sidious at any costs.
Ask yourself: If we wouldn't see Dooku challenging Sidious in this situation would it be out of "fear" that he might lose or because he has knowledge that he would 100 % surely lose the fight ?
Okay. Well, Veitch specifically called Palpatine "the most powerful Sith Lord ever" and Ragnos as "the most powerful of his time".
Oh wow. Now Veitch gave statements about Sidious and Ragnos ? Where, dude ?
When you can tell me for a FACT that he can do what Sidious can - and more - then I'll believe you.
Everything we saw Sidious using so far was ancient Sith knowledge: Force storms, force / life drain abilities, lightning, some alchemy. And now you can tell me how the ancient Dark Lord of the Sith would not possess knowledge about force techniques created before or in his era ?
It's simply irrelevant what Sidious learned, mastered or invented unless somebody is able to give a convincing argument for that stuff being more useful than ancient Sith knowledge which is quite unlikely because even Sidious himself used ancient Sith knowledge only when it came to direct confrontations.
Okay, so the Ancient sith would've known everything from 100,000 years from Adas's holocron when it was heavily restricted? why do you constantly ignore Palpatine was able to devise new techniques?
Or, that he invented the technique to 'reach out' with his anger and destroy someone by DE?
Oh, and Lucas said Dooku does not have the potential to be above Sidious.; And Dooku was terrified of Sidious. And Sidious is the most powerful practioner of the Sith arts in modern times. And the strongest Sith of Bane's order...Dooku falls into those categories.
Oh, and dear me! You're trying to use game stats to argue? Oooh, sorry, by that logic, Kun is weaker than Vader. And notice how you just IGNORE any evidence: Sidious had mastered everything, did you miss how the force storm was volatile and he controlled at least three just fine before he was bound by the light? Of course you did, that would hurt your argument.
And when you're Dark Lord, you're in for life. Sadow says he obeyed Ragnos because everyone must. Oh, and he was busy with his experiments and political issues. Ragnos was politically savvy, remember? Prove how Ragnos beat Simus. NOW. I want direct proof it wasn't a cheap shot or 'tactical'
You know what's especially sickening? How you keep trying to use one quote with Ragnos as gospel when it's very clear it was only talking about that era. Did you miss the 'Now he is dead.' Did you miss the 'was'? Notice how it only applies to that time and Dan Wallace clarified as much? Oh, wait! Nai knows more than any author at LFL who makes Star Wars his job! Funny how LFL has let all this stuff about Sidious slip if it was so contradictory...man, clinging to that quote is just plain desperation. You even ignore how KJA considers Kun to be above those characters and considering he wrote about them himself...Wow, just plain desperation. I think his opinion on the subject firmly overrides yours. Especially given how he, y'know, wrote that little statement about Ragnos. And Golden Age. And Fall
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Give me a break...Tavion called him back long before we saw him at Korriban according to Evil Never Dies. When was the scepter even mentioned?
Ah...now the sceptre is written "out of existance" because it's not mentioned in Evil Never Dies. I'm awafully sorry if some authors are completely inable to keep informations handed to them in line.
How about: When we see practically every user of a certain weapon fall to a wielder of another weapon, it's safe to assume some superiority. Especially when you put a guy with a blaster against a guy with a saber...on average, the guy with a saber's victories tend to number in the...hundreds?
No. It's save to assume superiority of the duellist - not of the weapon.
Oh, give it a rest! Anderson said one thing very clearly. Anderson is given credit for the Ancients. You have NOTHING but an interpretation of a quote that came about before Anderson took over TOTJ completely!
No. Anderson didn't say anything clearly - you just think he did. Did he clearly state that Kun is more powerful than Ragnos, Simus, Sadow or Kressh ? No ? What a pitty.
And interpretation of a quote ? That "quotes" are coming from Anderson after the release of GAotS so he already "took over" the series and he directly say that Veitch and him did work together on Dark Lords (plural dude) and even Kun. And this totally destroys his ability to give accurate guesses on their force powers - he didn't create them alone, he can't judge them alone.
oooh, and sorry, **** your opinion! The canon says 'everything'...making it 'everything.
The "canon" in this case contradicts the actual source material as well as basic logic. "**** reality" would be a better statement from you.
Great, Veitch helped. Who wrote them in the stories? Anderson.
Irrelevant missdirection. Writing a story about something (or descriping something) doesn't equal creating something. Did Einstein "create" the fundamental rules of the universe ?
Whose name is on the credits? Anderson. Who built up the culture? Anderson.
Irrelevant missdirections again. Anderson himself contradicts the credits. And the culture ? You mean the same culture we've already seen descriped in DLotS when Veitch and Anderson collaborated ? The same "culture" which entire background story was invented by George Lucas according to Veitch and Anderson ?
Who has more a say than you? Anderson.
Print that statement out and pin it on your monitor.
Anderson: "I didn't create the Ancients on my own !"
Lightsnake: "He's giving credit for the Ancients so he did create them !!!!"
Huh ?
who considers Ragnos to be inferior to his creation and Sidious? Anderson.
No.No.No. Who considers that Anderson considers Ragnos to be inferior to Kun ? Lightsnake. Did give Anderson a direct statement like this ? No.
And sorry, but he has right to say that's that, considering he wrote the damn comic. Man, even if Veitch went up to you and said Ragnos is weaker than Darth Sidious, you'd still find a way to wiggle out of it.
No. He doesn't have the write because the characters don't belong to him and even they would do he himself said that he can't determine the strength of different characters from different eras. Does Ragnos come from another era than Kun ? Yes ?
So if Anderson says he can't determine something - why should we estimate he can. Much more: Why should we even accept Anderson's opinion on topic X when he contradicts what we believe to be the truth on topic Y ? Double-standarts much ?
Mechu-Deru's hardly ancient. It was based on Ancient alchemy, but the technique was invented by the NSE. Oh, and where did the Leviathan 'infuse the dead?' It stole souls, that's hardly the same thing.
Unfortunatelly mechu-deru is directly refered to be an ancient Sith technique which descripes the process to infuse mechanical objects with the Dark Side of the force. And this was even used by the Rakata so it's hardly a "new invention".
Except you can know forgotten techniques because you discover and learn them. Says he did, your opinion means nothing.
If I wipe a certain amount of knowledge (X) from existance gained over - let's say - 20,000 years. How high is the chance that a being (or even several beings) would be able not only completely regain the entire amount X in just 1,000 years but invent new knowledge (Y) that was not contained in X before ?
Once more: hell with your opinion. Ragnos was beaten by a pre-teen and Kun was driven away by Padawans and toddlers.
And Sidious had his ass handed to crippled ex-Jedi in life-support systems.
...species don't survive immediate decapitation
Hilarious. Species also don't survive as a head in a yar for more than a century. Usually species surviving their own death are very rarely seen. Do you have any smart-ass reason why Simus just kept his head alive instead of his entire body if he wasn't beheaded. "I'd rather be a helpless head carried around by a slave than somebody who can walk on his own" ?
Dathka was Dark Lord before the Dark Jedi even arrived and was a full blooded Sith. Apparently he's been taken out of the 'DLOTS' category thanks to Abel.
Dathka is called "Dark Lord" and Abel made it clear that the first "Dark Lord" was one of the Dark Jedi that came to Korriban.
Tulak was likely one of the exiled Dark Jedi who went to the Sith worlds with Ajunta and the others. So, it's likely he had plenty of duels at the start of the empire.
It's getting more illogical the more I think about it. So...you have multiple people (as it seems entire armies) of people fighting for the title in the first place. Then...for some mysterious reason...they simply accept the rule of one Dark Lord and never question it.
Illogical point here: Given that the Dark Lords lived over centuries there is enough time for several generations to raise in power. Then: Why didn't the bloodline of the "first" Dark Lord (most likely the most powerful) kept dominating the Empire ? And why we suddenly just have two possible successors in every generation ?
Especially sincew his time frame is well before there was stability within the Empire.
When did the "stabilisation" of the Empire happen exactly ? Imagine the situation: You always have multiple people (and their heirs and so on) fighting for the Dark Lord title. Because of this every form of "stability" would basically end with every death of a prior Dark Lord. And given this atmosphere of concurrence for power while considering the nature of the Sith philosophy I find it very unlikely that all (or even a majority) of the Dark Lords died because of natural age.
And miss how Sadow's duel of succesion was interrupted and Kressh discovered he murdered Simus....especially as Sadow didn't become Dark Lord via orthodox means. And yeah, civil wars WERE quite common in the empire...after Adas died and before the Dark Jedi arrived, Evil never Dies explained that away. And Sadow pretty much said "Eh, let them do what they want."
Did you miss how Sadow was the first Sith Lord in a long time to break the orders and guidelines? Especially when Sadow says he only obeyed Marka because 'everyone' must obey the Dark Lord
Lightsnake: Kressh immediatly denied to follow Sadow's rule before he found out that Sadow killed Simus and manipulated all that stuff. Sadow was Dark Lord, Kressh ignored it. And now please give me a convincing argument why this shouldn't have happened in former generations among similar "arch-enemies". If you want power and somebody else takes it there is no way to supress things like envy or old conflicts between the new "ruler" and other people.
And Sadow maybe wanted to seem "cool". Technically Ragnos was dead and dead people aren't respected normally. And I'm almost sure they didn't have guidelines like "What to do if the former Dark Lord decides to come back from the grave".
In fact...show me a source that says Ragnos died to old age.
Both KotoR games as far as I remember. At least KotoR 2. Not to mention that if somebody would have killed him that person would have become the next Dark Lord automatically - and we would have received something in the comics if an action like that happened.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Okay, so the Ancient sith would've known everything from 100,000 years from Adas's holocron when it was heavily restricted? why do you constantly ignore Palpatine was able to devise new techniques?
Or, that he invented the technique to 'reach out' with his anger and destroy someone by DE?
Restricted even to the Dark Lord himself ?
And it doesn't matter that he deviced new techniques until we don't know what exactly he deviced and how useful it is. Yeah...reach out with the force and kill people...never happened before.
Oh, and Lucas said Dooku does not have the potential to be above Sidious.; And Dooku was terrified of Sidious. And Sidious is the most powerful practioner of the Sith arts in modern times. And the strongest Sith of Bane's order...Dooku falls into those categories.
And WTF has Dooku to do with Sidious VS Ragnos ? Nothing ? Great.
Oh, and dear me! You're trying to use game stats to argue? Oooh, sorry, by that logic, Kun is weaker than Vader. And notice how you just IGNORE any evidence: Sidious had mastered everything, did you miss how the force storm was volatile and he controlled at least three just fine before he was bound by the light? Of course you did, that would hurt your argument.
Did you miss how the last force storm is descriped to be more powerful than the others he used before ?
And when you're Dark Lord, you're in for life. Sadow says he obeyed Ragnos because everyone must. Oh, and he was busy with his experiments and political issues. Ragnos was politically savvy, remember? Prove how Ragnos beat Simus. NOW. I want direct proof it wasn't a cheap shot or 'tactical'
"I want to be the Dark Lord but I guess I'd rather do some experiments and care about some political issues instead of crushing the reigning Dark Lord". For the other stuff: See postings before.
You know what's especially sickening? How you keep trying to use one quote with Ragnos as gospel when it's very clear it was only talking about that era.
You know what's especially sickening? That you keep accusing me to use statements I didn't use in the entire thread and keep modeling quotes in a way that they fit your opinion. Let's turn "most powerful of Bane's order" into "most powerful ever".
Did you miss the 'Now he is dead.' Did you miss the 'was'? Notice how it only applies to that time and Dan Wallace clarified as much? Oh, wait! Nai knows more than any author at LFL who makes Star Wars his job! Funny how LFL has let all this stuff about Sidious slip if it was so contradictory...man, clinging to that quote is just plain desperation.
Isn't it nice how many time people can waste to counter arguments that were never given ?
You even ignore how KJA considers Kun to be above those characters and considering he wrote about them himself...Wow, just plain desperation. I think his opinion on the subject firmly overrides yours. Especially given how he, y'know, wrote that little statement about Ragnos. And Golden Age. And Fall
Let's again ignore what Anderson said about the Ancient Sith just to stay with our precious opinion. And let's keep Anderson as the ultimate source of knowledge which makes the NEC comment USELESS but we can also ignore this as long as we can stay with our precious opinion.
Let's cling to double-standarts and model statements as we like them just to win some debate. Hey...
Lightsnake: "This is an egg."
Anderson: "I don't know exactly."
Lightsnake: "But you created it."
Anderson: "No. I didn't."
Lightsnake: "Ok. And because you created the egg and say the egg might be more powerful than the chicken this must be the truth. But then I have another statement that the chicken is the most powerful thing ever. That contradicts your opinion. So you are wrong - so I can't thrust your judgements. But I will ignore that fact and keep handing your statement to others as long as it's useful for me, ok ?"
Anderson: "*rolleyes* OK...whatever"
...and so on...
Give me actual proof she used the scepter to summon Marka. Can you? No.
Hm, sith swords are proving remarkably superior, then...
Oh, give me a break! "If Kun and Sidious were to fight, we'd find out who the strongest was!" That leaves room for interpretation how? It doesn't. It's just you clinging to some outdated belief when someone who has authority on the matter shoots you the hell down. And he can't judge them alone? BULL! Veitch was GONE by the Sith war, Anderson claims full credit for the Ancients and what happened during the 5000 BBY stuff! You know what? He's more official than you. What'll it take, Tom Veitch walking to your house? First it's 'But Wallace isn't official!' Then, it's 'But KJA can't judge them alone!' Kun was created BEFORE he was put in DLOTS, so don't even try that. They worked together, but who WROTE the story? Who designed the characters and gave them life? Veitch wasn't working on them anymore, remember? I trust KJA before I trust you.
Except it doesn't. Canon quotes>you. Sour grapes again, Nai! Find me something contradicting...wait, you can't! because an official source says 'everything'...making it 'everything!'
Except KJA did create Kun. And Ludo. And Naga's character. And Ragnos.
Really now, when in DLOTS are we shown Sith culture? OMG! A Holocron! A sith Sword! KORRIBAN! Didja forget that we saw in the ancient visions in DLOTS, spaceships flying around ina futuristic city, later retconned y KJA's work? Keep it coming...especially as GaoTS was billed as the first real look into the ancients. And where did GL invent the story? Oh, no...he didn't. He just defined the parameters of a DLOTS for them...
Anderson said himself that he considers the title of the strongest to be between Kun and Sidious and if they ever fought we'd find out who the strongest was. Just try wiggling out of that one, Nai. Just try telling me he meant different.
Except he created the characters so his opinion means more than yours. Oh, and you know what's hilarious? I defined what I meant by era and lumped Naga, Ludo, Kun and Ragnos into the same era...and he said Kun was the strongest of the time! Wow! There's no contradiction, just you refusing to accept.
Except it's not as the New Sith created it drawing upon ancient Sith alchemy. Try again! And Belia Darzu invented the process of converting creatures to techno beasts
And Kun was beaten by Toddlers...gthat 'cripple' was pound for pound able to lift starships and didja miss hwo Sidious was torturing Luke and using Battle Meditation simultaneously? Miss how Ragnos was beaten by a guy who was training for maybe a month? Or how Ludo was beaten by a dying ship by or your precious Kunny was chased off by Mara Jade?
Tell it to Celestrina. And yeah: Simus was cut down and used Sith magic to have his head transferred and had to be encased to be kept alive. Notice how dathka Graush used something similar to remove his own heart?
And Adas was called a Dark Lord originally. Dathka also lived a century before the Dark Jedi arrived. Meaning he was the reigning Jen'Ari.
Which is why it was said they had an ordered, rigid system and Naga was the first to break away from it in ages? When all that warring was referring to the times BEFORE the Dark Jedi arrived?
According to Evil Never Dies, the empire stabilized when the Dark Jedi arrived and interbred with the Sith. And your'e the only one throwing out this natural age stuff. For all you know, Ragnos was poisoned.
Could it be because Naga had just become Dark Lord in highly unorthodox manners and if done properly, Kressh wouldn't be ALIVE to question his rule? Naga KNEW Kressh wouldn't follow him. The reason this wouldn't have happened before is when those arch enemies fought, one of them wouldn't have a word to say about the other's rule due to being six feet under. Ludo refused to accept Naga as rightful Dark Lord, and that's rare due to the guy who normally would object meeting his end at the point of a sword in a duel.
And did you miss Naga Sadow telling off Ragnos and not doing what he expressly told them to do? Y'know, unity and all? Ragnos advised unity and stopped their duel. What was it Naga said..."Takes more than a ghost"? After Ludo proposed peace to him.
I want the source. I want the quote of ragnos dying of old age. For all YOU know, he died in an experiment gone sawry. When was it ever said "whoever kills the reigning Dark Lord becomes Dark Lord!"
when did it ever say the others were terrified of him? Admired, obeyed and respected, but Naga showed nothing but contempt for him. Ludo certainly didn't fear Naga...and isn't there a quote about Ragnos playing the Sith against one another to keep power?
Considering there was an appointed guardian to Adas's Holocron-Garu in this case, few had access to said holocron whatsoever.
Didja miss how he controlled it fine until his force powers were resticted? Yep.
More like "I can't do anything while Ragnos is alive and I'm continuously opposed by that damn Ludo Kressh!""
Give me a break, wanna talk about the DE sourcebook now? Where's 'Bane's order' mentioned there? Or the canonically accepted NEC? If you can disregard KJA's opinion, then hell with wallace's! He wrote it, so it's teh canon.
Now that's just a new level of esperation. Anderson says he can't give me a definite measurement on the strongest Sith, and says Kun was the strongest Sith Lord of the old era which is what allowed him to do so much- didja miss how I lumped the 'Ancient times' to be everything before Bane's order?- And then he says if Palpatine and Kun'd fight, we'd find out who the strongest Sith wa.s Game, set, match. You're being so hypocritical here, Nai. Nothing matters if it doesn't support your opinion, does it? Kevin J. andersonn himself put Kun AND Palpatine above the Ancients and he CLEARLY SAID
and where did he say Veitch created the Ancients? I'm sick of you throwing that out, PUT UP OR SHUT UP, Anderson only refers to the stuff PRIOR to the Sith War as Anderson gets FULL credit and never denied it! he wrote GAOTS and FSE exclusively, his name is on the products and his alone! Give me proof now, Nai! Something DEFINITE, something saying "Veitch created the ancients" because Veitch's version of them differed HEAVILY from what we actually saw!
What I'm especially tired of is the moment someone who actually created the setting gives a differing opinion, they're suddenly invalid.
Kevin said exactly that it was between Kun and Sidious. "If LFL put a comic featuring Palpatine against Sidious we'd find out!"
In DIRECT response to my asking who the strongest Sith was. He told me he didn't have a DEFINITE answer for me, but he gave me his opinion and what he thought would be the deciding factor.
If you don't accept this, too bad. Kevin wrote the comics and he's a lot more credible than you
Really, Lightsnake. Is it so hard to spot the obvious errors in your pretty arguments ? It's really easy:
"Anderson did create the entire Ancient Sith"
The mere fact you try to push this assertion through the debate as "truth" based on the single fact that only Anderson's name appears in the credits of GAotS and FotSE is either a testament for your stupidity or your blatant Sidious fanboyism. Let's have a look at the inconvenient facts
1)
The ancient Sith all appear far before Anderson even was involved in the series. Nadd (+his backstory including Sadow) were created by Veitch before and same with the DE series that introduced the idea of the Ancient Sith first.
The most important things here are the appearence of Ossus (Freedon Nadd uprising / Dark Empire) before DLotS was started and the appearance of Sadow and Nadd in DLotS.
When we see Ossus in the DE series it's said that this planet was destroyed by a Sith attack (supernova) which means that Veitch who created those stories on his own had the entire action of the Sith War which cumulated in the destruction of Ossus already in his mind.
We also see Sadow in an Anderson / Veitch cooperation and it's mentioned that he:
- was in oposition with the Dark Lord on Korriban / was Dark Lord himself
- was an enemy of the Republic forces
- tried to take over the Republic
- finally ended up on Yavin 4 with his Massassi slaves
2) You have to understand that Kun is just a "foreign character" put into an already existing storyline. Or as Anderson himself said in the interview:
"I asked him [Tom Veitch] if I could write a guest issue telling the origin of Exar Kun, but Tom was thinking much bigger. He said, "Let's do this grand epic where we pit your guy against my characters in a big war that wrecks half the galaxy." That certainly sounded more fun than a guest issue."
"In the comics, Tom Veitch and I have developed the life story of Exar Kun, a villainous Dark Lord of the Sith, whose spirit appears in my Jedi Academy books."
You have to understand the following thing here: Veitch had the story of the Sith War already in his mind and he had the antagonists needed (Satal, Aleema, Ulic, Nadd) to start a nice war which he needed because he already released the fact that Ossus (the former Jedi "headquarter"😉 was destroyed by a large-scale Sith supernova that hit the planet. Then Anderson came up with Kun. Anderson and Veitch did develop Kun's background together (see above) and the story of the Ancient Sith to a certain extend (see DLotS).
And all this was done under influence of Lucas. Read the "Fanmail" pages in FotSE #1. Somebody complains about the Sith being an alien race conquered by the Dark Jedi. The Editor replies with:
"Sorry you don't like the framework of the Sith and the Dark Jedi, but that background came directly to us from George Lucas. We're following his guidelines and building a story within the parameters he himself laid down."
Bing. And said "parametres" were laid down during the time of Anderson's and Veitch's cooperation and even before as both have directly stated.
Veitch (TOTJ #1):
"We had to prepare questionaires to explain what we wanted to do. Those were reviwed by George, because he wants to make sure ,if you're going to tell about the ancient Jedi,he wants to have imput on it.We have to write very carefully detailed questionaires and list the ideas we want to use. He reads them and gives approval or disapproval."
Anderson (interview on the Dark Horse page):
"Lucas said to make him [Exar Kun] a Dark Lord of the Sith; so then I had to ask what a Dark Lord of the Sith is. Tom Veitch and I gave him a two-page questionnaire about what Dark Lords of the Sith can or can't do and Lucas defined all the parameters for us."
Keep that stuff in mind.
"The credits, the SW universe and the entire rest"
Like all human beings that think of themself to know the truth, be it acquired from their ancestors, gained through personal revalation or prescriped by authority, you neither care about logic nor about the question if your fundamental assumptions are correct.
When three different authors are working on a certain topic (in this case: The backstory of the Sith) it's simply impossible to say that one of them is the absolute and ultimate authority on the topic. If you want to go by "credits" only then you are encountering the inconvenient fact that all credits of the DE / EE and the TOTJ series (before DLotS) are given to Veitch and only Veitch.
And what does the series include ? The most powerful version of Palpatine with the full extend of his knowledge and power. All TOTJ characters except Crado, Sylvar, Vodo and Kun.
And now we can play a funny game. Let's call it "M.A.P.O.P.P." (multiple authors personal opinion ping pong):
Wallace: "Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever."
Anderson: "To determine who is the most powerful Sith Lord ever we would need a fight between Sidious and Palpatine."
Veitch: "Anderson wasted some of my characters especially Ulic Quel-Droma".
Now let's play. Wallace contradicts Anderson's opinion when Anderson must be right here because he created Kun. But Kun's entire story contradicts the ideas of Tom Veitch who must be right because he created all TOTJ characters. That of course means that Anderson might overestimate the power of his beloved Kun. Does it matter ? No. Because Anderson compares Kun's power to that of Sidious which most powerful incarnation is a creation of...tatatata...Veitch. But when Veitch is the only person with complete knowledge about the powerlevel of his creation (DE Sidious) how can Anderson come up with a statement like this.
Do you now see the crux of the matter ? In an area where mutiple people are working on the same literaric topic you can simply take one of them out of the team and threat his personal opinion as absolute and undenyable canon because the only source for that stuff would be official LFL statements and Lucas own words. Both don't exist on the topic and will never exist because the fans are important to LFL and Lucas and they don't want to spoil things there.
Hence versus topics are the no-man's-land of the SW universe. If a fight didn't happen you can't determine the outcome. Hell...people here use to deny the outcome of a fight even if we saw it happen by throwing certain ideas in. You yourself did it when "Mace vs Sidious" was discussed here multiple times. We see Mace beating Sidious but because of some sidenotes we can assume that this won't happen every time they fight. I did the same thing multiple times when discussing "Dooku vs Anakin". We see Anakin beating Dooku but that's not enough (at least not for me) to say that everytime Dooku and Anakin fight Dooku will lose.
Now add the little fact that every work of an author in the SW universe directly becomes property of LFL when it's released. We can unleash a roundelay of author's personal opinions here without solving anything. Do you think that Veitch/Anderson would have allowed Ragnos spirit to get beaten by a mere Padawan when they've shown that the same spirit can simply interrupt a fight between (according to Anderson) one of the two most powerful Sith ever and his future apprentice and physically harm them (placing the marks on their foreheads) apparently without them having anything to defend themselves against it ? No.
And now imagine the same situation but with Ragnos appearing to kill Ulic and Kun. Would they have simply died there from the overwhelming power of their progenitor ? Would that cause a new line of power with Jaden Korr being more powerful than DE Sidious (Jaden > Ragnos spirit > Kun = Sidious) ? Wait. Is Jaden Korr already more powerful than all Ancient Sith in the Golden Age because he managed to defeat Ragnos spirit ?
Do you see now why clinging to the personal opinions of authors is pointless ? I guess if you'll ask the creators of Nihilus if Sidious would be able to beat him they would say no because the only person able to do it - according to them - would be the Exile because of his / her special and unique nature. Sidious wouldn't be the most powerful Sith Lord any longer since we would have a person able to defeat him. Or he would stay the "most powerful" but we would have to live with the fact that the amount of actual "power" (in terms of duelling capability and force knowledge + force potential) doesn't always determine the victor.
Or you can take Sion and put him against Kun with Kun not being able to brake Sions will (because this requires "background information" from Kreia). Would Sion win ?
cont...
...cont.
The entire point here is that all we have about Sidious is that he might be the most powerful Sith Lord ever (Anderson denies it) without any statement how much more powerful (if he is) he would be compared to Ragnos. We know that he learned and mastered every force technique available - yet we don't know which what grade of effectivity he would be able to use it against one of his most powerful progenitors in terms of Dark Side usage. We even don't know what amount of his knowledge would be useful in a direct confrontation.
And again...this is the question that matters. Take DNA as example. Some amphibic beings have 10,000 times more DNA material than humans have. The amount doesn't matter - what matters is the way it is used. Now in the figurative sense: Sidious has an amount of knowledge (A) that possibly exceeds Ragnos amount of knowledge (X). Then Sidious has an amount of knowledge (B) useable / important in a fight which we can't compare to the amount of knowledge (Y) Ragnos would have in the same area.
What we know is that Sidious offensive abilities are quite limited to stuff already known in Ragnos time. Force lightning (ROTJ, ROTS, DE), force storms (DE), force TK attacks (ROTS). And because of the fact that this was already known in Ragnos time, Ragnos will most likely have some knowledge to counter it. We already saw people deflecting force lightning, we already see people countering force TK and we did see that control about force storms can be lost. Technically all Ragnos has to do is disturb Sidious when he tries to use this ability. Or they both pull some instakill abilties of and wipe each other from existance.
The point is that we have two ridiculous powerful characters (the Sith Lord of the Ancient times and the Sith Lord of modern times) entering a duel and for me it's senseless to base the entire judgement who wins on two personal opinions handed in by two authors who are - to top everything else - contradicting each other. Especially when the fight happens in a universe were the "more powerful" doesn't necessarily win a fight. See Anakin vs Obi-Wan or Mace vs Sidious.
And by this you might ask yourself how much sense a debate makes without debating. "DE Sidious vs Nihilus" - "Hey Sidious wins because he's the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Case close."
Get it, Nai? I'm gonna scan this emai;l through, I'll post it right here:
Tom ****ing Veitch HIMSELF told me Anderson created Ragnos...and you know something? Anderson himself created Exar Kun and designed his history himself. I'm asking Tom even more and he's said that he just left the Ancient Empire in the background and let others fill in the blanks later! Moreover, he said Palpatine tapped into the ancient secrets and added some of his own to the mix.
Nice chap, uses
And the hypocrisy of you trying to throw that on Sidious when all of a sudden Ragnos is Mr. Extreme power who trounces everyone and wins all the time....the irony is not lost.
While I'm on the subject? Wallace's opinion is current and in print. Veitch told me it was a very difficult question and though there were very powerful Sith back then, Palpatine used their secrets and added his own. Anderson believes it;s between Kun and Palp...and you know something? Veitch himself just confirmed Ragnos is 'definitely Anderson's'
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Get it, Nai? I'm gonna scan this emai;l through, I'll post it right here:
Tom ****ing Veitch HIMSELF told me Anderson created Ragnos...and you know something? Anderson himself created Exar Kun and designed his history himself. I'm asking Tom even more and he's said that he just left the Ancient Empire in the background and let others fill in the blanks later! Moreover, he said Palpatine tapped into the ancient secrets and added some of his own to the mix.Nice chap, uses
And the hypocrisy of you trying to throw that on Sidious when all of a sudden Ragnos is Mr. Extreme power who trounces everyone and wins all the time....the irony is not lost.While I'm on the subject? Wallace's opinion is current and in print. Veitch told me it was a very difficult question and though there were very powerful Sith back then, Palpatine used their secrets and added his own. Anderson believes it;s between Kun and Palp...and you know something? Veitch himself just confirmed Ragnos is 'definitely Anderson's'
I love how you simply ignored the fact that the "most powerful" doesn't always win. May I again site Mace vs Sidious and Anakin vs Obi-Wan ?
So ok. Anderson created Ragnos. Anderson thinks Kun is more powerful than Ragnos. Veitch say Sidious is the most powerful. Perfectly ok. And when they clash we still can't determine the victor because of that single statement (see above).
But thanks for the new information.
Being more powerful helps. It certainly gives Palpatine the edge. And Anderson thinks Palpatine is stronger than Ragnos as well, let's not ignore that. And, while the strongest doesn't always win, there's still the detail that it would likely go to a force duel. Their knowledges are at the least equal
Like I said, being more powerful certainly helps. It also shows Ragnos won't be Wtfpwning anyone...and Veitch also says Sidious added 'some of his own' with the secrets of the Ancients. He said himself there were extremely powerful Sith Lords way back when, but I've never argued there weren't
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Being more powerful helps. It certainly gives Palpatine the edge. And Anderson thinks Palpatine is stronger than Ragnos as well, let's not ignore that. And, while the strongest doesn't always win, there's still the detail that it would likely go to a force duel. Their knowledges are at the least equal
Why would it go to a force duel ? If there amount of knowledge usable in a fight are almost or completely equal than I don't see anyone of them gaining the advantage in a force fight. And when it comes to melee combat I'd say Ragnos has some nice advantage there.
We see that happen in the duel between Yoda and Dooku (ends with lightsaber duel) and technically in the duel between Sidious and Yoda too. They first threw eachother through the room (lightning / push) then engage in a lightsaber fight and then we see a force battle happen again with Yoda being the - unlucky - loser.
Still...to win against Ragnos I still say Sidious needs some terrain advantage or something similar. On a flat area I guess they'd stalemate in a force contest and then Ragnos defeats Sidious in a saber fight.
Like I said, being more powerful certainly helps. It also shows Ragnos won't be Wtfpwning anyone...and Veitch also says Sidious added 'some of his own' with the secrets of the Ancients. He said himself there were extremely powerful Sith Lords way back when, but I've never argued there weren't
Ah...see...
I'm pretty sure I've never said Ragnos would "wtfpwn anyone else" outside of sarcastic comments. He would most likely win against anybody else (sometimes close) because he has most of the knowledge other people have (or at least most of what they did use in fights) but had far more time to develop this knowledge or fitting counter-measures. My point was that Sidious wouldn't "wtfpwn" anybody else just because he's "the most powerful".
Palpatine is stronger in the force than Ragnos and given that he knows both Jedi techniques and what he invented, he certainly has the edge. And Palpatine's no slouch with a swordsman, DE Sidious as a swordsman was quite effective. Palpatine is extremely smart with his tactics and would most certainly fight smart. In the force fight, which Sidious would most likely force, he has the edge however
The problem is now, Nai, we've finally made some progress to establish Marka is NOt the most powerful and as Kun and Luke have both proved, knowledge sometimes yields to potential and general power. It's not unheard of for someone to counter attacks instinctively.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine is stronger in the force than Ragnos and given that he knows both Jedi techniques and what he invented, he certainly has the edge.
Ragnos has Jedi knowledge too as his progenitors were Jedi.
And Palpatine's no slouch with a swordsman, DE Sidious as a swordsman was quite effective. Palpatine is extremely smart with his tactics and would most certainly fight smart. In the force fight, which Sidious would most likely force, he has the edge however
Ragnos is a freaking monster physically compareable to the likes of Vastor and Shimmra. And we've seen people able to outfight Sidious having some huge problems with that. The point is that given at least equal force knowledge there is not point in seeking victory via force contest. Sidious tried it against Yoda and just won because of Yoda's physical nature.
The problem is now, Nai, we've finally made some progress to establish Marka is NOt the most powerful and as Kun and Luke have both proved, knowledge sometimes yields to potential and general power. It's not unheard of for someone to counter attacks instinctively.
The problem here is that Ragnos lived in a surrounding were almost every being could drop force attacks on him and unlike Sidious he had to fight Dark Siders (and considerably powerful ones) before to receive his Dark Lord position and stay with it.
Sidious on the contrary choses manipulation over direct confrontation and while he's not exactly the weakest duellist he didn't have any need to focus on training melee combat or defending himself against force attacks where both skills were essentially needed to survive in Ragnos times.
Ragnos having Jedi knowledge, if he'd even want to bother with it is conjecture and he certainly wouldn't have Jedi techniques that focus primarily on the lightside that Sidious made use of, and were created later.
by DE, PAlpatine is physically fit as Luke, and we've never seen Ragnos in the flesh, I really doubt he's as physically strong as Shimrra who was practically eight feet tall with extreme strength already greater than twice that of a human enhanced to hell and back...if an older, exhausted Luke could match him blow for blow...Palpatine is capable of using the force to enhance his strength and speed and by DE, he did plenty. Physical strength isn't always the clincher.
Sidious also honed his skills religiously, since he had to just in case the Jedi ever converged on him. Power was his currency and he had to excel in it. Hell, Kaan lived in a time more turbulent than Ragnos's, so'd the Dark Underlord...both are on record to losing to Jedi-note, lose. Kaan survived the fight with Hoth. even if he didn't favor direct fights, this is Sidious post twenty six years and at his strongest and best, with at the very least equal knowledge, speed and an extreme power in the Dark Side. This certainly isn't open and shut anymore, and Palpatine certainly has a chance, and given his uperior raw power now, he could most certainly win.
A bit more from Veitch:
I think that with the Sith, knowledge and darkside "wisdom" are more important than "strength". Their greatest power lies in being able to seduce their enemies (and friends) to the dark side -- not use physical force against them. Palpatine was one of the best ever at that. Comparatively, Exar Kun was a rather minor adept with an overblown idea of his own importance. ;-)
I have the feeling someone doesn't like Exar...
In all seriousness though, we've proven Palpatine has the edge and removed some utterly ridiculous restraints. Nai is absolutely right: Power doesn't guarantee a victory, it gives an edge and now we know Ragnos won't be taking on Palpatine, Luke and Yoda at once...Honestly, this's what I've been trying to show all along. There's nothing saying Exar'd beat Marka 100 percent of the time, or PAlpatine beating them. We know for certain they're stronger, but there are other factors.
