DE Sidious Vs Marka Ragnos

I'll be with you in a moment, Nai, old on:
Oh, for God's sake, Darth sexy, just shut up, you're embarrassing yourself.
1. DE Luke is described as incredibly powerful in the force and the saber and a 'twin divinity' to Sidious and a lightside Titan. He brings WAR MACHINES to the ground with a gesture.
2. The authros of LFL have been known to say that quote applied to 5000 years before Sidious was born in the Ancient Empire! The NOW HE IS DEAD is sort of an indication, are you just incapable of reading? Or do you think you know better than Ragnos's creator? I've cited several examples of Sidious's raw power, you've yet to give me anything

Now, Nai:
Kar drew power from the jungle though, On Haruun Kal, he was at his peak.

The problem is: A sith is going to kill his apprentice if he has to. Palpatine was more than ready to see Maul dead at any moment. And we don't know if Palpatine was lying or not.

Then it just establishes Mace is an elite to another level than the 'average' elite.

Alright, let's go through survivors: We know Palpatine trained numerous force sensitives, Jedi younglings and some captured Jedi as Dark Jedi...on average, Vader killed a lot, and few died to stormies...some survived. Palpatine's kill count could be as low as five to ten and not offset the number, but we know quite a few Jedi survived the Purge.

It's not like there weren't Lightsaber battles with the new Jedi...a lot of Jedi turned dark, the Trhyssian Sun Guard, the Mercosa, Kibh Jeen, the Prophets, Volfe Karkko, Nikko Tyrris...te average Jedi wouldn't really be involved in this, of course, but the top guys like Yoda had undoubtedly had some Dark Jedi confrontations.

Veitch said that, and Anderson rated Sidious as 'stronger' with Kun on whatever scale he uses. Veitch says he sees said knowledge as the true power of the Sith, along with Palpatine learning the secrets of the ancients and adding some of his own.

Why does it have to be 'based' in anything? It's something Sidious invented, instant and with all his power. Unlike the wall of light thing, Sidious doesn't fire a blast at someone, he attacks them through the force, through the dark side instantaneously. If we're saying Ragnos gets his, we can give Palpatine some amulets of his own as he had enough ancient indestructible Sith amulets to give them to his top servants. They're what was under Vader's gloves. Ragnos won't know the technique and it s designed to, unlike the wall of light, kill the attacked instantaneously. Even if it won't kill him, it's going to tip the fight in Sidious's favor seriously.

Lightsnake, when you make the same arguments that have embarassed you for months upon months, don't tell me i'm embarassing myself. You can provide nothing but "Well he said this and I have no proof". So please stop trying so hard, it's laughable at best.. I don't really need to add more since you keep saying these people keep saying this that and that, and are looking like a complete fool by not providing the proof.

I;m gonna say this so even you can understand it:
I've posted the emails before here and at Janus's forums. Nai's seen it, too, why else do you think we've hit this?

Lightsnake has embarrassed himself for moths? No, that is why he is said by many to be one of the greatest debators here....

And goddamn, he has given you places to look into this fact, these scans from Kevin. Why don't you check that out instead?

Veitch actually, the scan from Kevin-which I think got purged in my inbox- was posted at EoD...It might still be there

Sexy is a sock. Probably TDTD...

Link me. Nebaris stop riding other people's arguments because you can't create one of your own..

Dude, I am convinced that yo are TDTD.

Know where Janus's site is? Search there.

And look through DE Sidious vs. MArka Ragnos, the first scan's there. Find it yourself

Whats Janus' username? Not to mention Ive seen plenty of DE Sidious vs. Ancient sith threads here, all with Sidious going down.

....Janus?

I obviously need the username to search his info to see where his site is, it's a lot more efficient than searching blindly.

Yep

btw, I think the post Borbarad made sums it up very well, I have nothing to add to it.. And I don't see how you can argue with it unless you start using the ambiguous text argument

Originally posted by Borbarad
Of course...because anybody would ask Anderson about his opinion, right ? In fact Anderson himself contradicts the statement that Sidious was the most powerful because he himself thinks it's not possible to determine who's the more powerful out of two people until they have fought each other.

And again...This is simply nonsense. Anderson himself said that it's impossible to determine who's more powerful until you have a direct confrontation between two characters. Did we see "Ragnos vs Kun" anywhere ? No ? So Anderson has no basis to put Kun above other people than the ones Kun did actually fought and defeated - according to his own rules.
Not to mention that this was Anderson's answer on the question if Sidious or Kun would be more powerful (given the circumstances under which said question was asked) and it's pretty stupid to conclude anything else out of it.

Aside of this I pretty much love the way people keep "debating" things here. Let's just try to downplay the other character as much as we can and ignore the finer comments given in the original sources. 100 % "I win" guarantee in every debate. For example we can take the Dark Side Sourcebook that labels Sidious force storm "the possibly greatest use of the Dark Side" forget the "possibly" ignore the fact that we've seen possibly greater usage of the Dark Side in sources released after the Dark Side sourcebook (e.g. Nihilus draining a planet empty) et voilà: Sidious must be the most powerful Sith ever. Or we simply take the NEC comment that "Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever" ignore the ambigious nature of the word "powerful" and then state that this comment wouldn't have been given if Anderson hasn't agreed with it - when we see Anderson obviously not agreeing with it. And again we've created another nice "fact". Way to go...

Ragnos ruled the Ancient Sith Empire in it's "Golden Age" (so the absolute high point of Sith magic and Sith alchemy) basically undefeated and with an "iron fist" (which hints to some conflicts at least). We know that almost any Dark Side power we've seen in use so far comes from that ancient time period including force storms (see TOTJ companion), various life-drain and force-drain techniques including large scale instakills (see KotoR 2), force lightning, force choke and so on. We have this nice statement that Sidious knows all that stuff (of course he never uses it because of some mystical reason) so let's assume this is the truth. Do you think it's quite possible that the Dark Lord of the Sith ruling the Sith Empire in it's golden age would have knowledge about all this stuff too or even more knowledge since he lives at the high point of the Sith "culture" ? I think so. Can it be that the guy with access to all this knowledge and several centuries to study + entire groups of people who had access to the same stuff and wanted his position might possess more refined knowledge about said stuff than the guy who just studied it for a century with almost no need to ever use it ? Hmm...

And at this point were reaching the funny "Ragnos is overrated" paradoxon. We have two people here that were the "top products" of their respective "Sith culture". We know that both had very similar knowledge (Sith magic, Sith alchemy, Jedi powers). So how can we "overrate" one of the characters and try to downplay the other in the same moment. Answer: It doesn't work because we can't declare the very same knowledge "not useful" for person A and then say it's "priceless" when person B has it.

It's even getting more hilarious when we introduce Anderson's statement here. Anderson himself is not sure who will win a battle between Kun and Sidious. Kun ? Anderson himself limited Kun's dark side knowledge to:

a) a very high amount of knowledge coming from Sadow
b) some bits of knowledge coming from other source but still with the "ancient Sith" as the main source

And now we can deceide ourselves if:

a)
Anderson is so in love with his own creation that he estimates Kun can master every bit of Sith knowledge not only better than the originators of said knowledge - no - he should be able to do this more than 100 times faster than the ancient Sith. This would not only require an impossible amount of intelligence (for fast learning) - he must have had an almost impossible amount of potential too as we have seen that even Anakin, the guy with the most potential ever wasn't able to overpower his own master Obi-Wan force wise.

b)
Anderson didn't even think about the ancient Sith when giving this comment to Lightsnake because the original question was if Kun would be able to beat Sidious - or who of them is the most powerful. And in this case the "Anderson thinks Kun is more powerful than Ragnos point" is quite mood. Oh no...wait...this statement is already pointless because if Kun is more powerful than Ragnos and more powerful than Sidious there is no way to conclude who would be stronger between Sidious and Ragnos here.

So while we don't have any concrete base to compare Sidious and Ragnos except that there knowledge was very possibly quite similar (in which case they would "neutralize" each other) there are some hints that Ragnos would be more likely to win a physical confrontation.

a) Thanks to all that nice retcons in the ancient time period we now have some nice proof that lightsabers were known to the ancient Sith but they prefered their Sith swords. Why ? As it seems, the swords were more powerful weapon otherwise they wouldn't have been used.

b) Ragnos is more impressive physically than Sidious.

And really people...what would it give to Sidious that he can use force storms. I'm pretty sure he won't archieve victory by crushing Ragnos and himself with said ability or teleport both of them into oblivion. And Ragnos might be able to pull the same stuff off. So what ? Stalemate through death of both participants ? Or can it be that some people that accuse others of "overrating" Ragnos constantly are now "underrating" him ?

Btw, I've already taken care of that post in a debate with Borbarad

I've read your post Lightsnake. That is why I reposed his argument.

You didn't read carefully enough, then. Nai even conceded some of the points. Especially since I posted the Veitch stuff

that post seemed to be the most accurate one out of the 9 pages. I'm about to go to your link to see if you have anything to add to the various text.

Translation: "I only read what supported me."

This coming from someone who claims he's always right and that he doesn't lose Sidious debates on a regular basis? Hypocrite would be a great term.