Originally posted by Lightsnake
Two things: Mace was having some serious disadvantages and was in Kar's territory...Luke wasn't using the Force to enhance himself and was just plain exhausted after clearing out Shimrra's ship practically on his own. Recall, both Shimrra and Kar ended up on the ground one way or the other.
Serious disadvantages ? Mace had by far more actual training than Kar in force use, armed and unarmed combat. We're talking about one year in a jungle VS 50 years in the Jedi temple. Still Vastor pwned Mace in unarmed combat.
Luke might have been exhausted but even an exhausted Luke shouldn't have that much problems with another warrior considering his fighting skills. And where did you get the idea from that Luke didn't use the force to enchance himself ? Because it wasn't told ?
And Palpatine killed Plagueis tere apparently because that was the one time Plagueis was weak and vulnerable, the one time he never saw it coming. That the great, wise, Plagueis fell asleep and that was his undoing.
That reasoning is somehow stupid. Aren't Sith Lords not allowed to sleep any longer because their apprentices could murder them ? The point is Sidious didn't surpass his master at the point he murdered him - possibly not even by ROTS listening to his words.
Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin, three of the Jedi Order's best warriors ever could probably attest to Sidious's tactical abilities...
You really call that "tactic" ? And since when are Agen, Kit and Saesee some of the Jedi order's best warriors ever ?
He called them skilled duelists himself. He only kept the trophies of conquests he was directly porud of from the Purge. We know he personally took their sabers when he faced them. It was rare, but we know he fought.
And again: The entire Jedi council was wiped out (or hiding) and the people with most "front-line" action as well as the weapon instructors were all killed. So...what who would be left to be a "threat" for Sidious ?
Well, that's what happened. they planned to trick Dooku and then slam him when he got arrogant. Anakin certainly did overpower Dooku when he sent him reeling and then grabbed him.
The movie tells a different story 🙄
I'm rather certain saber abilities were in their top, considering the three greatest saber duelists the Jedi order lived there...Mace, Yoda, Dooku...Jedi as a whole may not've had the best abilities, but the elites, especially Yoda...
What about Revan, Malak, Kavar, Vrook, Exar, Ulic, Vodo, Hoth and so on. The simply point is that the Jedi in the PT didn't even expect saber to saber confrontation hence Dooku as almost only Makashi practioneer could defeat Jedi Masters and certain council Members without any use of the force.
In time periods were they had more fights against Sith they did have a greater need to exercise lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. Imagine entire temples filled with people like Dooku. If there is a golden age of lightsaber combat among the Jedi it's either the time after the Sith War or the time period of the New Sith Empire.
In "overall" lightsaber abilities the PT people might be better than former generations but I doubt they're better in lightsaber to lightsaber confrontation in general.
three hundred is still described as extremely old for the Sith whose alchemy kept them alive...this is the closest bit to any evidence we have. And remember...Ludo was apparently around as old as Naga, showing the hybrids don't age that much differently. Hell, we saw a PT Jedi kill a millenia old Dark Jedi who'd learned a great deal from the Sith arts with a move of his saber.
Err...Ludo and Naga were both "hybrids" so how does this show that Sith and "hybrids" don't age differently. Sadow does just have more Jedi blood if I remember correctly.
Also think about the following fact. When the "normal" age to become a Dark Lord was 100 years (most likely 120, 130...whatever Sadows / Kresshs age is) then Ragnos was most likely in the same age and did rule more than a century after this which would make him 200-250 years old most likely. I just wanted to say that the time Ragnos lived before becoming a Dark Lord (so where he could gain some knowledge in direct confrontation for sure) already exceeds Sidious entire lifetime.
The "vast majority" ? The "vast majority" is a group of people which IQ is equal to the IQ of the dumbest devided through the number of the "vast majorities" members. I thought I've explained some things to you via PM - obviously you are just ignorant.
Another Nai tactic. When he's losing, he breaks out the insults. Cute.
And, I wouldn't call people such as Janus an idiot, especially when he is easily your equal in terms of debating ability.
And again you are ignorant. If Lucas steps in and hands some people pages filled with material concerning ancient Sith, their possibly abilities and so on - who did design the Ancient Sith there. Hell...is Veitch or Lucas himself the ultimate source of knowledge when it comes to Palpatine ?
Well, as you yourself said, Lucas does not bother with the EU. So, I'd have to say that Lucas is the ultimate authority on Palpatine when it comes to the movies, and most likely Veitch has the most "knowledge" on EU Palpatine. But Lucas's authority overrules him.
Again, just an opinion.
Wow. The blatant master of lies is on the road again. I've changed my opinion quite often even during a single thread. Nice how you didn't notice it. Can you tell me why I should waste my time with somebody who has a large problem with his own cognition ? No ?
I'm not a liar, Nai. I have no reason to lie.
Like I said before, you pass your opinions off as fact. Even when you change your opinion. This has been said and observed time and time again. Perhaps you need to understand that you aren't always right. Which is why I did this. You need to see that Nai can be quite wrong, and be beaten in an argument by even someone who is, quite frankly, your inferior. Someone like me.
And wow...I'm still pretty sure Dooku would take down Sidious in a lightsaber fight. Anything to proof me wrong ? No ? Damn it. So I can still be write ? It's nice how you try to fight my opinions without knowing what this opinions are based on - and without even care about it.
I never denied that Dooku's lightsaber abilities are equal or superior to Sidious's own. But, to be fair, you were the one who stated, at one time, that Dooku was "more powerful", and that he could defeat Sidious in an all out fight.
I provided the source that dismissed both. Dooku is not more powerful than Sidious, according to Lucas, and he never even had the potential to be.
When I sent you that message, I sent it simply to end the argument once and for all. Kind've like the final blow. But your arrogant response stirred another argument.
I guess you get yourself some dictionary and look up the difference between "opinion" and "fact". Higher authority ? Where does the higher authority of, let's say, Anderson come from to judge Sidious ? Did he create Sidious ? Did he even write about Sidious ? No. But he's a "higher authority" on the topic than, let's say, Lightsnake ?
They are authors who receive approval and such from LFL to write the novels on their own characters and Lucas's own. So, yes, I consider them a higher authority to you, Lightsnake, and myself.
Authority has to be based on something and if there is no base there is no authority. Simple as that. If an author himself admits that something is just his personal opinion than it's exactly his personal opinion and nothing more. The single fact that some person did write something about a certain universe doesn't equate some "higher authority" considering this universe. And it's getting especially funny when said "higher authorities" say themselves they really can't give educated comments on certain topics.
On certain topics.
The only "higher authority" concerning SW issues is Lucas. And that's it. Not Anderson, not Veitch, not Wallace, not random-author-number 2392. Lucas.
No, he would be the highest authority.
Your level of ignorance tops everything I've seen so far. Check the last PM I sent and if you chose to ignore my words anyways why you try to discuss with me ? Either my personal philosophy concerning debates is clearly beyond that what you can perceive and understand or you plain and simply chose to be an ignorant. In both cases I don't see any reason to waste my precious free-time with you.
Why not go back and read statements like these before you accuse me of arrogance. I never pass off my statements and opinions as irrefutable law or fact. I even make a regular habit of putting a "disclaimer" in my arguments as to that I am most likely wrong in them.
No ? You are just arrogant enough to think yourself to be able to look into my head and have inside into my thinking process. But that's no arrogance or "pass yourself of as an authority". I'd like to point out that I've answered the same bullshit just before - why didn't you read the answer ?
My friend, you are the one who tells us what Lucas says on a regular basis. I recall certain statements such as:
(on the subject of Yoda and Mace being able to compete with Palpatine, and Dooku not mentioned) "Lucas wasn't thinking of Dooku. Period."
(on the subject of Yoda holding up his hands trying to block Palpatine's Force lightning) "Yoda was trying to cover his eyes!"
(on the subject of Palpatine possibly restraining himself against Mace, in order to bring Anakin to the Dark Side) "Mace WTFpwned Sidious. Period."
Don't accuse me of arrogance, when you are the poster-boy for it.
Did I ever b**** you because I owned your sorry ass in some dabate ? Did you ever see me coming in here "Hey, Escape. Your opinion was wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong *masturbates*" ? No ? Did you ever see me digging up months old topics and nail a "Look how wrong you were" on your forehead ? No ? Hell...then why do you think you have to do something like that ?
Because I don't perceive myself as the world or law of Star Wars, like you do.
No. You are not like me. I'm an actor and act arrogant in search for knowledge - Socrates reversed, Advocatus Diaboli. You - unlikely me - think you know something and if some "higher authority" comes and confirms it you have to act arrogant because you - unlike me - are in fact arrogant. And sorry. I can't be arrogant. If you say I'm superior to you yourself than I'm not "arrogant" just realistic.
Like some statements above, why not re-read this, and then tell me, again, that you're not arrogant.
And of course in contrary to you I don't have to claim to have inside to your process of thinking - otherwise I would have to say that you are on some personal vendetta against me, digging up some 6 month old topic to "proof that I was wrong". That, my friend, is a sure sign of an weak-willed, pathetic character on search for acknowledgement of his own capabilities by try to belittle others. But of course I can't know that because I can't look into your head, right ?
No, but you can see into Lucas's.
If you want to go on with making a fool out of yourself you can always count on my assistance. Without being rude, of course. Lmao.
Of course not. Because you've been so absolutely polite here, now haven't you?
he didn't pwn him, they were fighting equally for a bit, and may I remind you Mace had just been through absolute hell and was fighting Kar friggin' Vastor in a jungle?
Luke believed he could've gone further if he was using the force to enhance himself, too...and no matter WHO you are, fighting through two armies is going to bring your energy down...and he was still going with Shimrra more than evenly.
Right, because we can count Palpatine's words to Anakin as direct and complete truth. By the same token, if Plageuis was having issues with Palpatine, he should've killed his unruly apprentice who he was tense with. Palpatine exploited a weakness he saw rather than risk a fight and humiliated Plagueis in the process. Why risk a fight when you can kill someone so easily?
Killing three men, called in the ROTS novelization three of the best duelists the Jedi'd produced, either means you're a damn good duelist, or a damn smart one.
Some of the several hundred Jedi who escaped Order 66 and were purged in the Clone Wars that Vader and the Inquisitorius were in charge of and some who Palpatine dealt with himself?
Except it doesn't. Anakin knocked Dooku back, sending him tumbling forward and then grabbed his saber and severed his hands. anakin overpowered and outdueled him. and Dooku is arrogant from the start, then after he blocks the two of them, what happens? He realizes their facade and the danger he's really in.
Tholme, T'ra Saa and Shaak Ti were almost certainly Makashi practioners and there were still numerous Form V and IV users and skilled warriors...and Yoda's pretty much the best Jedi duelist, with Mace and Dooku not far behind of duelists the order produced. During a golden age of the Jedi and dueling-according to Lucas, I believe- I'd set the best fighters of a golden age above others.
At the time of death, Sidious is nearly a hundred years old. And for the last time: Age. Does not. Matter. Especially as we've now established Palpatine has more raw power and more knowledge than Marka. And Ludo was a pureblood Sith...any Jedi blood he may've had was long, long drowned in the Sith blood. the comic says as much given the centuries of his ancestors interbreeding with just Sith.
and given that Sidious's knowledge exceeds Ragnos's, with what he's already invented himself, including his personal instakill that Ragnos would never even know about...
Originally posted by Escape81
Another Nai tactic. When he's losing, he breaks out the insults. Cute.And, I wouldn't call people such as Janus an idiot, especially when he is easily your equal in terms of debating ability.
I love how you are unable to understand that an "appeal to majority" doesn't become more valid when said "majority" includes people like Janus. If you want to hand in your opinion than give me your opinion and not that of some random "majority" as a virtual authority behind you.
Well, as you yourself said, Lucas does not bother with the EU. So, I'd have to say that Lucas is the ultimate authority on Palpatine when it comes to the movies, and most likely Veitch has the most "knowledge" on EU Palpatine. But Lucas's authority overrules him.Again, just an opinion.
I don't know how you are able to understand a certain concept, say it's correct and then chose to ignore is. The point is that the EU Palpatine as Veitch created him was created before Lucas has fully developed the concept of the movie Palpatine. Do you really think that a guy that could at least hold his own against the most skilled lightsaber combatants of (at least) the last centuries of the Jedi order should get defeated by a mere farmboy with almost no training and knowledge in a lightsaber fight ? Would Veitch write the exact same story after ROTS ? Probably not.
And that's the problem of the SW universe: Interdependancy of various sources created by different authors. Can Anderson keep the concept of powerful Sith spirits (Kun) after we have a mere Padawan defeating the probably most powerful Dark Lord the Ancient Sith Empire had seen ? This various sources and various authors created contradictions and because of this we can just "interprete" things but not "determine" them.
Like I said before, you pass your opinions off as fact. Even when you change your opinion. This has been said and observed time and time again. Perhaps you need to understand that you aren't always right. Which is why I did this. You need to see that Nai can be quite wrong, and be beaten in an argument by even someone who is, quite frankly, your inferior. Someone like me.
How often do I have to kick certain things against your head until they finally get in ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advocatus_Diaboli
There you can find the basic reason for my "style" of debating. I'm not trying to "pass my opinions off as fact". I already told you that this would destroy the entire need for a debate and I wouldn't waste my precious time to do something like this. Even more obviously I wouldn't even change my opinions if I would threat them as "facts" myself.
I toss my current view in (or something things even contradicting my own opinion to see if I can fight it myself when somebody else posts something similar to my opinion) and then I try to smash everything put in against it - not to convince you that I am right (bloody stupid way to get famous on the internet) but for the reason to develop my own opinion further. I could do it the other way around and start with "Scio me nihil scire" (I know that I know nothing) and ask questions until a reach a result that pleases me.
So. I can't be wrong because I don't insist to be right and you can't "beat" me in a debate (does somebody here mistake "sophism" for "debate"😉 because I don't even want to win.
I never denied that Dooku's lightsaber abilities are equal or superior to Sidious's own. But, to be fair, you were the one who stated, at one time, that Dooku was "more powerful", and that he could defeat Sidious in an all out fight.
See above. And yes...if he has equal or superior lightsaber abilities he can defeat Sidious in an "all out" fight unless Sidious (and I'm talking about ROTS Sidious) is able to crush him with his force powers which I pretty much doubt.
I provided the source that dismissed both. Dooku is not more powerful than Sidious, according to Lucas, and he never even had the potential to be.
Yes. You dismissed arguments I didn't even use - petitio principii. For me it only matters that you fail to present a convincing argument for Sidious winning a force battle with Dooku in his ROTS state and you fail even more to make me believe Sidious would be able to win a lightsaber fight against Dooku.
When I sent you that message, I sent it simply to end the argument once and for all. Kind've like the final blow. But your arrogant response stirred another argument.
So you admit that your entire reason was arrogance ? Because of the single reason that you wanted to give me the final blow ? And then - ups - you failed to do so. And you tried it again in this thread and - let's face it - you've failed again. To be honest: This will always be the case as long as your entire motivation is to satisfy an ambition (which seems to be the case).
They are authors who receive approval and such from LFL to write the novels on their own characters and Lucas's own. So, yes, I consider them a higher authority to you, Lightsnake, and myself.
We are still talking about some stories here that are more than a decade old. Lucas opinion on certain topics can change in the matter of hours (somebody in the ROTS commentary called that Lucas' usual way of working) and this opinion changes affect everything else - especially the EU.
On certain topics.
What "certain" topics would that be ? Comparing the power of some characters inside the universe ? On what base ? A single author would be limited to determine the power of his own creation X to his own creation Y unless nothing did change in their story (meaning they being used by other authors).
For example Anderson can give an accurate statement how powerful Ragnos is in GAotS or DLotS - he can't give an accurate statement how powerful Ragnos was in JK:JA compared to that. And this gets especially tricky when characters are developed further by different authors. In some situations characters (illogically) appear to be less powerful than their own prior versions. Compare Vader in Purge or RoDV with the guy we've seen in the movies. Or DE Luke to JA Luke (NJO Luke to DN Luke).
The "storywriters" of KotoR 2 for example might really have thought that Ragnos would be able to crush people like Sadow, Kressh, Revan or Kun rather easily due to things mentioned about him after Anderson wrote his comics (e.g. Luke's comment that it would take the power of the entire academy to defeat a living Ragnos). Who is right now ? Anderson who imagined Kun to be more powerful than Ragnos or LFL who allowed the game designers to use statements like we've seen in KotoR 2 and JK:JA ?
No, he would be the highest authority.
No. The only one when it comes to determine things in the SW universe and not just interprete them. See...the authors are just interpreting things without any power or right to determine them. For Anderson Kun might be on Sidious level (rather close) - for Lucas Sidious might be able to crush Kun rather easily. Hence Lucas opinion is the only that matters - everything else is just a matter of interpretation.
Why not go back and read statements like these before you accuse me of arrogance. I never pass off my statements and opinions as irrefutable law or fact. I even make a regular habit of putting a "disclaimer" in my arguments as to that I am most likely wrong in them.
You mean aside from judging other people's characters when you know virtually nothing about them ? Did you or did you not try to hand me the "fact" that I'm arrogant and see myself "unbeatable" in debates ? Hm ? You did and you were wrong as I've tried to explain to you SIX times now...
Don't accuse me of arrogance, when you are the poster-boy for it.
Isn't it dumb to make the same mistake over and over again ? I'd say it's rather boring...
Because I don't perceive myself as the world or law of Star Wars, like you do.
Look. And again the great Escape gives us "facts" about my personality. Will he figure out one day what is his mistake ? Maybe. All it takes is to do one click on a link and read it. Will he manage to do so ? Read more in the next Episode of "I'm so arrogant that I've to accuse other people of arrogance to feel better".
Like some statements above, why not re-read this, and then tell me, again, that you're not arrogant.
Read Schopenhauers "The Art of Controversy" or even better read what I write instead of applying your own vision of my words coming from your imagination over what I've really written.
"Hey Nai. You are superior to me" - "Yes. Ok. If you say so." - "What ? You arrogant son of a...." Hilarious.
No, but you can see into Lucas's.
I love how I'm interpreting Lucas words by using other comments of the same person on the same topic + what he shows us with his work and you come up with "you look into Lucas head". No, I don't. I just state my opinion on what the guy might have wanted to tell us - and Lightsnake and yourself did the same in several "Mace vs Sidious" debates. Want to accuse me of something you do yourself and site this as a proof for my "arrogance" ? Then welcome to the club, buddy.
Of course not. Because you've been so absolutely polite here, now haven't you?
Excuse me. Did I start the game here with something similar to "Without being rude but....BWHAHAHA you're pwned you arrogant dumbass. Bwhahahaha." ? When you decide to piss in the wind you shouldn't wonder about smelling in the end, dude.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
he didn't pwn him, they were fighting equally for a bit, and may I remind you Mace had just been through absolute hell and was fighting Kar friggin' Vastor in a jungle?
Would Mace defeat him if he's in top shape and the fight happens on Coruscant ?
Right, because we can count Palpatine's words to Anakin as direct and complete truth. By the same token, if Plageuis was having issues with Palpatine, he should've killed his unruly apprentice who he was tense with. Palpatine exploited a weakness he saw rather than risk a fight and humiliated Plagueis in the process. Why risk a fight when you can kill someone so easily?
Excuse me. Why would Plagueis kill his apprentice if the entire philosophy he's living is based on the fact that the apprentice must once surpass and kill the master ?
Killing three men, called in the ROTS novelization three of the best duelists the Jedi'd produced, either means you're a damn good duelist, or a damn smart one.
Or the author is a great Sidious fan. By the mere fact that all 3 get cut down rather quick compared to Windu later puts Windu quite leagues above them - making the former statement pretty much invalid.
Some of the several hundred Jedi who escaped Order 66 and were purged in the Clone Wars that Vader and the Inquisitorius were in charge of and some who Palpatine dealt with himself?
The last time I checked Leland Chee's comments on the Holocron page he said that between 30 and 100 Jedi (out of 10,000) survived the war and the Purge later. Given the fact how many Vader manhandled on his own there wasn't much left to fight for Sidious. And, as I said, those people would have been rather far away from his own power or those of the "most powerful" Jedi of the PT era.
Except it doesn't. Anakin knocked Dooku back, sending him tumbling forward and then grabbed his saber and severed his hands. anakin overpowered and outdueled him. and Dooku is arrogant from the start, then after he blocks the two of them, what happens? He realizes their facade and the danger he's really in.
And again: Interpretation of Stover by an earlier script. Dooku almost easily controlled them until Obi-Wan is out of the fight. That doesn't happen if the people you fight are really a match for you. And nobody would be dumb enough to "fake" something until his advantage is lost.
Tholme, T'ra Saa and Shaak Ti were almost certainly Makashi practioners and there were still numerous Form V and IV users and skilled warriors...and Yoda's pretty much the best Jedi duelist, with Mace and Dooku not far behind of duelists the order produced. During a golden age of the Jedi and dueling-according to Lucas, I believe- I'd set the best fighters of a golden age above others.
Again. The only "Golden Age" statement Lucas gives is on the AotC DVD (or some online special ?) and he just says "Golden Age of the Jedi" without mentioning "duelling abilities". And the fact that certain individuals have a special skill doesn't mean that the era they lived in was the "Golden Age" of the certain skill. I wouldn't call Tulak Hords time the "Golden Age of Sith combat" even if he's sited at the best Sith lightsaber duellist ever.
At the time of death, Sidious is nearly a hundred years old. And for the last time: Age. Does not. Matter. Especially as we've now established Palpatine has more raw power and more knowledge than Marka.
I could swear that I've already argued Sidious didn't necessarily need to have more "raw power" then Marka because "more knowledge" is still enough to make him "more powerful".
And Ludo was a pureblood Sith...any Jedi blood he may've had was long, long drowned in the Sith blood. the comic says as much given the centuries of his ancestors interbreeding with just Sith.
To be precise the comics also call Sadow a "pure Sith blood" and then Sadow says about Kressh that he "whines like the weakest of downtrodden underlings. The blood of many Sith slaves must run in his veins." Eh...I don't want to draw conclusions out of that.
and given that Sidious's knowledge exceeds Ragnos's, with what he's already invented himself, including his personal instakill that Ragnos would never even know about...
...and he still might be able to block since it's based on knowledge Sidious received prior to invent it...the force fight remains undetermined.
Outside of the jungle, in a cold sterile environment with Mace using his saber, the fight would indeed go differently. Outside of then jungle, I doubt Vastor'd walk away.
Plagueis was already planning Sidious's replacement and there was extreme tension between the two. Two quotes:
on Darth Maul: "A master would rather the apprentice fall than teach a weakling the ways of the Sith
From Dooku: "Very often, it is the Apprentice who dies."
No, it really doesn't. Stover, if anything, is a Mace fan. Don't declare something invalid simply because you don't like it.
It doesn't change the fact that Sidious still killed some, at the very least. And we know of quite a few Vader killed, so the figure is likely closer to the '100' mark
Dooku realized Obi-wan was a serious threat and got rid of him when he took the chance.
I'm rather certain Lucas mentioned saber dueling as well...
Well, since Sidious, one way or another is 'more powerful', according to however KJA measures it, which, given his tossing Kun so high up...
I don't recall the comic calling Sadow a true blood Sith, just that he still bears true Jedi Blood...Ludo's been called a full blood Sith and that his ancestors interbred with the Sith. Naga was being callously insulting to Ludo with that comment, but Ludo's Jedi blood was minimal or nonexistant,
What knowledge? Sidious's apparent attack is instant, unknown to Marka and something Sidious himself created....he only taught it to Luke.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Of course...because anybody would ask Anderson about his opinion, right ? In fact Anderson himself contradicts the statement that Sidious was the most powerful because he himself thinks it's not possible to determine who's the more powerful out of two people until they have fought each other.And again...This is simply nonsense. Anderson himself said that it's impossible to determine who's more powerful until you have a direct confrontation between two characters. Did we see "Ragnos vs Kun" anywhere ? No ? So Anderson has no basis to put Kun above other people than the ones Kun did actually fought and defeated - according to his own rules.
Not to mention that this was Anderson's answer on the question if Sidious or Kun would be more powerful (given the circumstances under which said question was asked) and it's pretty stupid to conclude anything else out of it.Aside of this I pretty much love the way people keep "debating" things here. Let's just try to downplay the other character as much as we can and ignore the finer comments given in the original sources. 100 % "I win" guarantee in every debate. For example we can take the Dark Side Sourcebook that labels Sidious force storm "the possibly greatest use of the Dark Side" forget the "possibly" ignore the fact that we've seen possibly greater usage of the Dark Side in sources released after the Dark Side sourcebook (e.g. Nihilus draining a planet empty) et voilà: Sidious must be the most powerful Sith ever. Or we simply take the NEC comment that "Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever" ignore the ambigious nature of the word "powerful" and then state that this comment wouldn't have been given if Anderson hasn't agreed with it - when we see Anderson obviously not agreeing with it. And again we've created another nice "fact". Way to go...
Ragnos ruled the Ancient Sith Empire in it's "Golden Age" (so the absolute high point of Sith magic and Sith alchemy) basically undefeated and with an "iron fist" (which hints to some conflicts at least). We know that almost any Dark Side power we've seen in use so far comes from that ancient time period including force storms (see TOTJ companion), various life-drain and force-drain techniques including large scale instakills (see KotoR 2), force lightning, force choke and so on. We have this nice statement that Sidious knows all that stuff (of course he never uses it because of some mystical reason) so let's assume this is the truth. Do you think it's quite possible that the Dark Lord of the Sith ruling the Sith Empire in it's golden age would have knowledge about all this stuff too or even more knowledge since he lives at the high point of the Sith "culture" ? I think so. Can it be that the guy with access to all this knowledge and several centuries to study + entire groups of people who had access to the same stuff and wanted his position might possess more refined knowledge about said stuff than the guy who just studied it for a century with almost no need to ever use it ? Hmm...
And at this point were reaching the funny "Ragnos is overrated" paradoxon. We have two people here that were the "top products" of their respective "Sith culture". We know that both had very similar knowledge (Sith magic, Sith alchemy, Jedi powers). So how can we "overrate" one of the characters and try to downplay the other in the same moment. Answer: It doesn't work because we can't declare the very same knowledge "not useful" for person A and then say it's "priceless" when person B has it.
It's even getting more hilarious when we introduce Anderson's statement here. Anderson himself is not sure who will win a battle between Kun and Sidious. Kun ? Anderson himself limited Kun's dark side knowledge to:
a) a very high amount of knowledge coming from Sadow
b) some bits of knowledge coming from other source but still with the "ancient Sith" as the main sourceAnd now we can deceide ourselves if:
a)
Anderson is so in love with his own creation that he estimates Kun can master every bit of Sith knowledge not only better than the originators of said knowledge - no - he should be able to do this more than 100 times faster than the ancient Sith. This would not only require an impossible amount of intelligence (for fast learning) - he must have had an almost impossible amount of potential too as we have seen that even Anakin, the guy with the most potential ever wasn't able to overpower his own master Obi-Wan force wise.b)
Anderson didn't even think about the ancient Sith when giving this comment to Lightsnake because the original question was if Kun would be able to beat Sidious - or who of them is the most powerful. And in this case the "Anderson thinks Kun is more powerful than Ragnos point" is quite mood. Oh no...wait...this statement is already pointless because if Kun is more powerful than Ragnos and more powerful than Sidious there is no way to conclude who would be stronger between Sidious and Ragnos here.So while we don't have any concrete base to compare Sidious and Ragnos except that there knowledge was very possibly quite similar (in which case they would "neutralize" each other) there are some hints that Ragnos would be more likely to win a physical confrontation.
a) Thanks to all that nice retcons in the ancient time period we now have some nice proof that lightsabers were known to the ancient Sith but they prefered their Sith swords. Why ? As it seems, the swords were more powerful weapon otherwise they wouldn't have been used.
b) Ragnos is more impressive physically than Sidious.
And really people...what would it give to Sidious that he can use force storms. I'm pretty sure he won't archieve victory by crushing Ragnos and himself with said ability or teleport both of them into oblivion. And Ragnos might be able to pull the same stuff off. So what ? Stalemate through death of both participants ? Or can it be that some people that accuse others of "overrating" Ragnos constantly are now "underrating" him ?
Well put Borbarad. I have absolutely nothing to add to that nor refute your statement. I've noticed a lot of the people on this forum are big fans of Sidious and more importantly are anti TOTJ for whatever reason, which would explain their logic in terms of known SW character vs. Comic Book character. Let me also add that Palpatine's life draining technique and force storm were derived from the ancient sith, just like Nihilus and Traya's force drain. This can be found in the TOTJ companion FYI.
I never asked KJA about Kun vs. Sidious at all, actually...just who the strongest was and defined the parameters there.
And for the last time, it says right in print lightsaber use faded over time to tradition and that the Sith preferred the swords because of the visceral feeling of steel cutting through flesh
Nebaris, back off. I think that you're upset that he actually presents evidence when he states his opinion, instead of arguing that "my opinion alone counts for something".
Found those quotes on Yoda and Mace, yet?
You too, Lightsnake. Don't make my mistake and let Nebaris's inability to provide facts and short patience level piss you off.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Is lightsnake the guy who posted a fake letter a long time ago, trying to boost his favorite character?
No.
When he makes these emails, he provides proof from them. Screenshots of the email and the response. Not forgeries. Don't discredit him for simply campaigning and promoting an idea or an opinion - or, in this case a fact - that you refuse to accept.