Anti Monitor, Pre Crisis Superman, and Darkseid vs The Living Tribunal

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Living tribunal as strong as the strongest Spectre ? So the Living Tribunal is as strong as Spectre's Master (God) to which Spectre became one with ? 😬

I'm just going to quote what I posted on the Spectre respect thread :

If the Spectre would have God's full backing then he would become as strong as I posted above (he would practically merge with God) but in COIE he didn't thus why I wrote "One of the strongest versions of the Spectre"

Just to get a glimpse on how powerfull Spectre was during the COIE :

"The [b]ONE Force more powerfull than him"

So he was second only to God pre-Depowerment

"His power once limitless ..."

"Yours was the power omnipotent ... "

"The power to halt a Crisis on Infinite Worlds .. to preclude the epic struggle between heaven and hell"

"Your Power Omnipotent was so great, so all encompassing"

(That is God adressing him)

The Anti-Monitor also recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter Universe destroyed :

And he wiped the infinite Universes until only 5 remained.

And he stood up to Spectre who had the kind of power I just described.

...

He is seriously underrated on this board. There are some people who think he is only slightly above Galactus. [/B]

Spectre underrated on this board? ROFL. That's a new one.

You also fail to mention how Spectre got punished after the whole I.C. because he didn't properly use the energy he was given to kill off A.M. from the get-go.

The strongest Specter is not as strong as God, nothing is.

In the instances that the LT has been defeated you can argue that TOAA Himself choose to have him lose, hence he was not being "backed up" by Him, mirrors the times when the Specter was defeated. If TOAA wants something done its clear than the LT is not going to be able to stand in the way.

So, how far was "one of the strongest versions of Spectre" from the strongest? Can that even be answered, or is that simply hyperbole/assumption?

Are you serios with this question ? Or do you want me to prove that the version from COIE is weaker than when Spectre became God thus the COIE version isn't the strongest one?

That means what? We all know that DC's hierarchy reads Presence first and Spectre second. By that notion, he was jobbing to the AM, because a being second only to God should have treated the AM like the AM should have treated the heroes.

Just because Spectre was superior to AM doesn't mean he was that much stronger so that he would have treated AM like the AM should have treated the heroes. We know that Spectre was stronger and could have defeated the AM during COIE but he misused that power thus why he was punished but just the fact that AM was able to stand up to this version of Spectre, even without truly using his max, tells a lot.

We already know that he is second to God.

I would focus more on the "once" portion rather than the "limitless" portion.

This wasn't to show that Spectre is second to God but to show that he had limitless power. That was already proven in the first scan.

By saying "power omnipotent", are you not alluding to a jobbing? If he was truly omnipotent, he would not have been stalemated. If he was stalemated by the AM's power, the narration would have been wrong, and he would not have been omnipotent. The second line posted by you backs it up.

Once again, if his power was "omnipotent" and "all-encompassing", he would not have been stalemated. I could quote dozens of dictionaries on the definitions, but I think you understand the point.

Did you miss the part from the scans that says that Spectre didn't use his power wisely and that he could have defeated the AM ?

But still had trouble swatting top tiers away, getting poisoned by his shadows, hurt by DS etc? Forgive me for saying that there is a huge gap of logic here. Should a being that stalemated with the "omnipotent" spectre be trifling with such entities?

Let me summarise your logic.

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power.

Tell me if I am wrong here.

You missed the circumstances in which those things happened and I really hope that you are not suggesting that Anti-Monitor at the height of his powers can't defeat the heroes ? Or that Darkseid can stand up to him in a one on one fight ?

My logic ? I showed that Spectre, although not using his powers to the max, was stalemated by the Anti-Monitor when this is one of the most powerfull versions of the Spectre.

Not to mention that Anti-Monitor recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed, when it destroyed all the infinite Multiverse except the five remaining earths.

Spectre underrated on this board? ROFL. That's a new one.

Who said anything about Spectre being underrated ? I was talking about the Anti-Monitor. Try to comprehend what I'm talking about.

You also fail to mention how Spectre got punished after the whole I.C. because he didn't properly use the energy he was given to kill off A.M. from the get-go.

It is stated that the Spectre was stronger than the Anti-Monitor and he didn't defeat him due to the misuse of that power but that doesn't change the fact that Anti-Monitor stood up to Spectre. Nor the fact that Anti-Monitor had the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed, thus the power of the infinite Multiverse minus the 5 remaining earths.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Are you serios with this question ? Or do you want me to prove that the version from COIE is weaker than when Spectre became God thus the COIE version isn't the strongest one?

I don't need that. I need an answer as to how much Spectre was weaker by. Not whether he was weaker or not, but how much he was weaker by. And yes, it is a serious question. I do not know why you would think otherwise.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Just because Spectre was superior to AM doesn't mean he was that much stronger so that he would have treated AM like the AM should have treated the heroes. We know that Spectre was stronger and could have defeated the AM during COIE but he misused that power thus why he was punished but just the fact that AM was able to stand up to this version of Spectre, even without truly using his max, tells a lot.

So basically, in summation, he jobbed?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
This wasn't to show that Spectre is second to God but to show that he had limitless power. That was already proven in the first scan.

Obviously that wasn't true, or he would have beaten the AM.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Did you miss the part from the scans that says that Spectre didn't use his power wisely and that he could have defeated the AM ?

Let's go over what "omnipotent", "all-encompassing" and "limitless" power entail. If spectre did have that kind of power, he would not have NEEDED to be wise with his power, because the very notion of limitlessness, omnipotence and the like is that there is no opposite that cannot be overcome.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You missed the circumstances in which those things happened and I really hope that you are not suggesting that Anti-Monitor at the height of his powers can't defeat the heroes ? Or that Darkseid can stand up to him in a one on one fight ?

Of course not, but a being near to spectre level, or whom is purported to beat the LT should not be wasting time on them, much less getting hurt by them. Tell me then if you are equating the AM to the LT knowing that beings such as supergirl and DS managed to stall him, and explain the logic there. The circumstances matter, I give you that, but they do not mitigate the logical gap.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
My logic ? I showed that Spectre, although not using his powers to the max, was stalemated by the Anti-Monitor when this is one of the most powerfull versions of the Spectre.

Not to mention that Anti-Monitor recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed, when it destroyed all the infinite Multiverse except the five remaining earths.

Again, "one of the most powerful" is nothing but hyperbole/assumption to me. That's just like me saying that the UN is one of the most powerful artifacts in the MU. Means little when compared to the HOTU.

Also, Spectre was at "one of his most powerful versions", but was not using his power to the max. Thus, you use the former portion to give the AM's power credence while forgetting about the latter portion, whereby the Spectre was not using said power wisely? Even if we put aside my above argument that an omnipotent being would not need superior intellect to achieve its goals, this sounds a lot like you forcing a square peg into a round logical hole.

So my question still stands. Is it:

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power

Or not? If not, tell me where I have deviated. Your extenuating circumstances have been answered above.

I don't need that. I need an answer as to how much Spectre was weaker by. Not whether he was weaker or not, but how much he was weaker by. And yes, it is a serious question. I do not know why you would think otherwise.

He was weaker. By how much ? That's based on assumptions really.

So basically, in summation, he jobbed?

No.

Obviously that wasn't true, or he would have beaten the AM.

So you're bringing the same arguments eventough it has been refuted ? It is stated that Spectre wasn't using the full extent of his powers.

Let's go over what "omnipotent", "all-encompassing" and "limitless" power entail. If spectre did have that kind of power, he would not have NEEDED to be wise with his power, because the very notion of limitlessness, omnipotence and the like is that there is no opposite that cannot be overcome.

Being that powerfull and actually using all that power are different things. It is stated that Spectre was all that by God, the same God who stated that he didn't use the power wisely. Do I need to say more ? No.

Of course not, but a being near to spectre level, or whom is purported to beat the LT should not be wasting time on them, much less getting hurt by them. Tell me then if you are equating the AM to the LT knowing that beings such as supergirl and DS managed to stall him, and explain the logic there. The circumstances matter, I give you that, but they do not mitigate the logical gap.

There is no logical gap because there were different levels of power displayed by Anti-Monitor during the crisis when in this discussion we are obviously discussing the strongest version.

Again, "one of the most powerful" is nothing but hyperbole/assumption to me. That's just like me saying that the UN is one of the most powerful artifacts in the MU. Means little when compared to the HOTU.

Also, Spectre was at "one of his most powerful versions", but was not using his power to the max. Thus, you use the former portion to give the AM's power credence while forgetting about the latter portion, whereby the Spectre was not using said power wisely? Even if we put aside my above argument that an omnipotent being would not need superior intellect to achieve its goals, this sounds a lot like you forcing a square peg into a round logical hole.

So my question still stands. Is it:

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power

Or not? If not, tell me where I have deviated. Your extenuating circumstances have been answered above.

You either don't understand what I'm saying or refuse to do it.

I'm using 2 arguments to prove how strong Anti-Monitor was.

The first one is the fact that he recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed and it destroyed the infinite Multiverse minus the 5 remaining Universes.

My 2nd argument is the fact that he stalemated the Spectre. Did I point out using the scans aswell as when describing the argument that Spectre was not using his powers at the max ? Yes. If he was using them at the max would he have been to beat the Anti-Monitor during their confrontation ? Yes. As this is stated by God.

What is the part that you don't understand exactly ?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
He was weaker. By how much ? That's based on assumptions really.

Then why bring it into this debate if it has nothing to do with how powerful spectre was at crisis?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
No.

By your reasoning, he was "omnipotent". He obviously failed to live up to said tag and did not use his power fully. What is it called if it is not jobbing?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So you're bringing the same arguments eventough it has been refuted ? It is stated that Spectre wasn't using the full extent of his powers.

I will stop using these arguments once you decide if the Spectre was either not omnipotent, or was jobbing. As the narration tends to be the author's way of conferring information, I would presume the latter, but I await your call.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Being that powerfull and actually using all that power are different things. It is stated that Spectre was all that by God, the same God who stated that he didn't use the power wisely. Do I need to say more ? No.

Right, and we should take that narration to be correct for my abovementioned reasons. If he was omnipotent according to the narration, and if that is taken to be true, it has to be a jobbing then. Sugarcoat it by saying that it was an unwise usage of power or that he was only using a fraction of his power (I find this one much more logical), but it was still jobbing.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
There is no logical gap because there were different levels of power displayed by Anti-Monitor during the crisis when in this discussion we are obviously discussing the strongest version.

It does not matter which version it was. As long as AM was not stated to be "omnipotent" by the narrator, we can take it that the AM was below Spectre, and that the Spectre, by his omnipotence, would have defeated ANY opponent other than God. Anything other than that goes against the meaning of omnipotence. Now tell me, if the Spectre had not held back/had not been unwise, would the AM have been crushed? If yes, if that is not jobbing, what is it? If no, why then are we calling the spectre omnipotent?

Your logic has a gap, because according to you, the Spectre did not job. He was simply unwise. I take it that he held back. If he was not holding back and used all his power in its omnipotence, he would have won. Even if he was unwise, he would still have won when using his full power. Put this way, a four-year old kid would beat the LT with the HOTU. Being wise has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You either don't understand what I'm saying or refuse to do it.

I'm using 2 arguments to prove how strong Anti-Monitor was.

The first one is the fact that he recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed and it destroyed the infinite Multiverse minus the 5 remaining Universes.

My 2nd argument is the fact that he stalemated the Spectre. Did I point out using the scans aswell as when describing the argument that Spectre was not using his powers at the max ? Yes. If he was using them at the max would he have been to beat the Anti-Monitor during their confrontation ? Yes. As this is stated by God.

What is the part that you don't understand exactly ?

I could say the same about your lack of understanding, but I choose not to.

Showing how strong the AM is does not mean anything in the light of the Spectre's supposed omnipotence. If I had a Abraxas vs LT debate, would I show thousands of scans showing how powerful Abraxas was? No, because the LT is clearly above it. By your own logic, Spectre's omnipotence has placed it above AM and all other DC beings save God. In an example, a random thug showing how many fights he has won means nothing when he steps up against a fighter that is superior in every way.

So, Am stalemated Spectre, and we happily remember that the Spectre was omnipotent, and hence the AM is a pretty big fish, while forgetting that he was unwise/holding back/jobbing. I could say that I stalemated Tyson at his peak if the only thing he was doing was flicking his right thumb at my nose, but that does not place me anywhere near Tyson. same thing here. Either use a non jobbing/unwise/holding back (I am in fact convinced that he was holding back, not jobbing) Spectre at all his omnipotence to show the AM's level, or not at all, because your logic is pretty flawed at its base.

So, is it:

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power

?

Then why bring it into this debate if it has nothing to do with how powerful spectre was then?

Because that guy said that Living Tribunal is as strong as the strongest version of Spectre and I pointed out that he was wrong.

By your reasoning, he was "omnipotent". He obviously failed to live up to said tag and did not use his power fully. What is it called if it is not jobbing?

Jobbing is when somebody has been shown to be able to use the said power to the fullest extent yet suddenly he doesn't and jobs so that he can make another character look good . This is not the case here. So I ask you again, how is this jobbing ?

I will stop using these arguments once you decide if the Spectre was either not omnipotent, or was jobbing. As the narration tends to be the author's way of conferring information, I would presume the latter, but I await your call.

Right, and we should take that narration to be correct for my abovementioned reasons. If he was omnipotent according to the narration, and if that is taken to be true, it has to be a jobbing then. Sugarcoat it by saying that it was an unwise usage of power or that he was only using a fraction of his power (I find this one much more logical), but it was still jobbing.

It does not matter which version it was. As long as AM was not stated to be "omnipotent" by the narrator, we can take it that the AM was below Spectre, and that the Spectre, by his omnipotence, would have defeated ANY opponent other than God. Anything other than that goes against the meaning of omnipotence. Now tell me, if the Spectre had not held back/had not been unwise, would the AM have been crushed? If yes, if that is not jobbing, what is it? If no, why then are we calling the spectre omnipotent?

Your logic has a gap, because according to you, the Spectre did not job. He was simply unwise. I take it that he held back. If he was not holding back and used all his power in its omnipotence, he would have won. Even if he was unwise, he would still have won when using his full power. Put this way, a four-year old kid would beat the LT with the HOTU. Being wise has nothing to do with it.

I could say the same about your lack of understanding, but I choose not to.

Showing how strong the AM is does not mean anything in the light of the Spectre's supposed omnipotence. If I had a Abraxas vs LT debate, would I show thousands of scans showing how powerful Abraxas was? No, because the LT is clearly above it. By your own logic, Spectre's omnipotence has placed it above AM and all other DC beings save God. In an example, a random thug showing how many fights he has won means nothing when he steps up against a fighter that is superior in every way.

So, Am stalemated Spectre, and we happily remember that the Spectre was omnipotent, and hence the AM is a pretty big fish, while forgetting that he was unwise/holding back/jobbing. I could say that I stalemated Tyson at his peak if the only thing he was doing was flicking his right thumb at my nose, but that does not place me anywhere near Tyson. same thing here. Either use a non jobbing/unwise/holding back (I am in fact convinced that he was holding back, not jobbing) Spectre at all his omnipotence to show the AM's level, or not at all, because your logic is pretty flawed at its base.

So, is it:

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power

?

I'm going to put all the paragraphs in the same quote since we are discussing pretty much the same thing in all of them.

As I explained above, it is not jobbing. Spectre is stated by the supreme being in DC to be Omnipotent and that his power is limitless and all-encompassing. Just because he didn't use that power to its fullest extent does not equal jobbing because he was never shown to be able to use it to its fullest extent. With full understanding of his power he would have been able to use the powers to its fullest potential and defeat Anti-Monitor but he didn't have that kind of understanding of his powers.

In short, yes, Spectre is Omnipotent but he does not have the necessary knowledge to use that power to its fullest thus why he didn't defeat the Anti-Monitor.

Jobbing is called when a character has been shown to be able to do something yet in a confrontation between him and another character he doesn't use the same ability/power against him and loses/doesn't beat him. Which is not the case here.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Because that guy said that Living Tribunal is as strong as the strongest version of Spectre and I pointed out that he was wrong.

So we have no indication as to how powerful COIE spectre was?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Jobbing is when somebody has been shown to be [b]able to use the said power to the fullest extent yet suddenly he doesn't and jobs so that he can make another character look good . This is not the case here. So I ask you again, how is this jobbing ?

Are you familiar with the term "jobbing" and its origins? A "job" is simply a scripted loss. It spills over to comicdom pretty simply. People say that surfer jobs to black panther, for example, because he was scripted to lose. That he did not use his full power is a tangent. There is no connotation that there must be a precedent for jobbing to occur.

Spectre was obviously jobbing by that definition, because 1) we, meaning both you and I, have agreed that Spectre > AM and should beat him and 2) he was sent out to stop the AM, and failed, meaning it would be more of a loss from his point of view.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm going to put all the paragraphs in the same quote since we are discussing pretty much the same thing in all of them.

As I explained above, it is not jobbing. Spectre is stated by the supreme being in DC to be Omnipotent and that his power is limitless and all-encompassing. Just because he didn't use that power to its fullest extent does not equal jobbing because he was never shown to be able to use it to its fullest extent. With full understanding of his power he would have been able to use the powers to its fullest potential and defeat Anti-Monitor but he didn't have that kind of understanding of his powers.

In short, yes, Spectre is Omnipotent but he does not have the necessary knowledge to use that power to its fullest thus why he didn't defeat the Anti-Monitor.

Jobbing is called when a character has been shown to be able to do something yet in a confrontation between him and another character he doesn't use the same ability/power against him and loses/doesn't beat him. Which is not the case here. [/B]

I have already defined jobbing. Even if Spectre had never shown usage of his power to its fullest extent, which your initial scans seem to contradict, it is taken that he is more powerful, and that he lost is simply jobbing. I would like to take a look at the scan of his punishment please. It's been a while since I read COIE. Back to the debate. Now that we have gotten the definition of jobbing out of the way, let me then postulate once again that if Spectre was omnipotent, which we have to assume due to the narration, he would not need great understanding of his own power.

Nebula arguably knew next to nothing about the IG, but undid Thanos' actions with the IG and beat the abstracts once again. Would you disagree that Aunt May with the Hotu would beat the LT easily?

Thus, you need to decide. If the Spectre was cumbered by various factors, and even then was holding back/jobbing, why is the AM even on the same scale as LT, given that the AM has even more low showings to drag his highest point downwards?

So we have no indication as to how powerful COIE spectre was?

Did you miss the scans where God states how powerfull Spectre was, but didn't use his powers to the fullest potential ?

Are you familiar with the term "jobbing" and its origins? A "job" is simply a scripted loss. It spills over to comicdom pretty simply. People say that surfer jobs to black panther, for example, because he was scripted to lose. That he did not use his full power is a tangent. There is no connotation that there must be a precedent for jobbing to occur.

Spectre was obviously jobbing by that definition, because 1) we, meaning both you and I, have agreed that Spectre > AM and should beat him and 2) he was sent out to stop the AM, and failed, meaning it would be more of a loss from his point of view.

Are you seriously comparing the Black Panther/Silver Surfer scenario when talking about Spectre/Anti-Monitor ? I already explained why "jobbing" doesn't apply in this case due to the circumstances and it seems the explination just flew by you.

I have already defined jobbing. Even if Spectre had never shown usage of his power to its fullest extent, which your initial scans seem to contradict, it is taken that he is more powerful, and that he lost is simply jobbing. I would like to take a look at the scan of his punishment please. It's been a while since I read COIE. Back to the debate. Now that we have gotten the definition of jobbing out of the way, let me then postulate once again that if Spectre was omnipotent, which we have to assume due to the narration, he would not need great understanding of his own power.

Nebula arguably knew next to nothing about the IG, but undid Thanos' actions with the IG and beat the abstracts once again. Would you disagree that Aunt May with the Hotu would beat the LT easily?

Thus, you need to decide. If the Spectre was cumbered by various factors, and even then was holding back/jobbing, why is the AM even on the same scale as LT, given that the AM has even more low showings to drag his highest point downwards?

You haven't defined anything and I already explaine to you why "jobbing" isn't correctly used here so there's no point in discussing it further. The initial scans contradict the fact that Spectre has never shown the full extent of his powers with what exactly ? And why do you insist with the word "jobbing" again when it's been shown to be inappropriatley used ? And you also seem to imply that if a person is Omnipotent he automatically knows how to use his powers to the fullest extent 😬

I have to point out that you have not shown any proof about the LT not being equal to the Specter at its fullest, you practically said "no its not" and blew it away. As stated above, Aunt May would destroy the LT with the HOTU because that is the power of Marvel God, true omnipotence. This is not a bad showing to the LT, if he was faced with God's true power the Specter would just be teared into pieces.

I have to point out that you have not shown any proof about the LT not being equal to the Specter at its fullest, you practically said "no its not" and blew it away

Did you miss this the part where I showed the strongest version of the Spectre is practically the one that became God ? Or are you trying to imply Living Tribunal = God 😐

As stated above, Aunt May would destroy the LT with the HOTU because that is the power of Marvel God, true omnipotence. This is not a bad showing to the LT, if he was faced with God's true power the Specter would just be teared into pieces.

Assumptions are always fun to read on.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Did you miss the scans where God states how powerfull Spectre was, but didn't use his powers to the fullest potential ?

Are you seriously comparing the Black Panther/Silver Surfer scenario when talking about Spectre/Anti-Monitor ? I already explained why "jobbing" doesn't apply in this case due to the circumstances and it seems the explination just flew by you.

You haven't defined anything and I already explaine to you why "jobbing" isn't correctly used here so there's no point in discussing it further. The initial scans contradict the fact that Spectre has never shown the full extent of his powers with what exactly ? And why do you insist with the word "jobbing" again when it's been shown to be inappropriatley used ? And you also seem to imply that if a person is Omnipotent he automatically knows how to use his powers to the fullest extent 😬

Your statements don't make any sense. Spectre jobbed to A.M., everybody on this board knows it except you apparently.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
[B]Did you miss the scans where God states how powerfull Spectre was, but didn't use his powers to the fullest potential ?

Nope, but using power unwisely is very very different from not knowing how to use power. Do you understand the difference?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Are you seriously comparing the Black Panther/Silver Surfer scenario when talking about Spectre/Anti-Monitor ? I already explained why "jobbing" doesn't apply in this case due to the circumstances and it seems the explination just flew by you.

Stop with the sniping please. The surfer scenario is just an example of jobbing. I have already defined what a "job" is. It is simply a scripted loss, which in comicdom means that an entity is written to lose. Your argument about not being experienced in an ability or not having shown an ability before not being equated to jobbing is your own tangent, and yours alone. I would prefer if we used the word "job" as the slang it was derived from. And yes, "jobbing" is the continuous tense of job.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You haven't defined anything and I already explaine to you why "jobbing" isn't correctly used here so there's no point in discussing it further. The initial scans contradict the fact that Spectre has never shown the full extent of his powers with what exactly ? And why do you insist with the word "jobbing" again when it's been shown to be inappropriatley used ? And you also seem to imply that if a person is Omnipotent he automatically knows how to use his powers to the fullest extent 😬

Defined once again above. Please stop making me repeat myself.

The initial scans show an obvious contradiction. They were from the 60s, right? Before COIE. Your argument is that the Spectre has never shown his full power before and lacks understanding. This is blatantly false, as he has become one with God (your words, not mine). Therefore, he would have an understanding of his full power, and there is no excuse for not showing it during COIE.

I insist on the right definition of "jobbing", not the one which suits myself best.

I am not implying that an omnipotent entity knows how to use his powers fully. Are you even reading my posts? I am implying that an omnipotent being should not need to even know how to use its powers optimally, because the nature of omnipotence means that there is no equal opposing power.

Nope, but using power unwisely is very very different from not knowing how to use power. Do you understand the difference?

Oh snap !

Stop with the sniping please. The surfer scenario is just an example of jobbing. I have already defined what a "job" is. It is simply a scripted loss, which in comicdom means that an entity is written to lose. Your argument about not being experienced in an ability or not having shown an ability before not being equated to jobbing is your own tangent, and yours alone. I would prefer if we used the word "job" as the slang it was derived from. And yes, "jobbing" is the continuous tense of job.

Jobbing is when somebody loses eventough they have been shown to have abilities that could have granted them the win yet did not use them. As I said and proven, jobbing doesn't apply here. I'm not going to repeat it all over again.

Defined once again above. Please stop making me repeat myself

That's called irony.

The initial scans show an obvious contradiction. They were from the 60s, right? Before COIE. Your argument is that the Spectre has never shown his full power before and lacks understanding. This is blatantly false, as he has become one with God (your words, not mine). Therefore, he would have an understanding of his full power, and there is no excuse for not showing it during COIE.

I insist on the right definition of "jobbing", not the one which suits myself best.

I am not implying that an omnipotent entity knows how to use his powers fully. Are you even reading my posts? I am implying that an omnipotent being should not need to even know how to use its powers optimally, because the nature of omnipotence means that there is no equal opposing power.

Actually this scans are from after the COIE, and it's pretty obvious since it even mentions the COIE and how Spectre could have stopped it. Him becoming one with God proves .. what ? Because that point doesn't really show anything. The right definition of jobbing ? And what is that really ? Yours or the logical one which I presented ? As for the Omnipotent discussion, like I said, Spectre was Omnipotent but didn't exercise his power to its fullest potential.

In the end, what are we arguing about ? The fact that Spectre wasn't Omnipotent ? He was, as stated by God. The fact that against Anti-Monitor he didn't use his powers to its fullest ? We both agree upon that and it's also stated in the scans I presented. So what exactly are you trying to prove ?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Oh snap !

What has that got to do with the difference between knowing how to use power and using it wisely? Missing forest for the trees and all that.

I'm not referring to Specter at full power. I am referring to his optimal use of power, of lack thereof. Interpret it then. Why exactly was said power impossible to use? Was it understanding? You tell me. Spectre at full ability is supposedly God (According to you), so by your logic, him not being able to use his full ability fits into the fact that he was weaker in COIE.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Jobbing is when somebody loses eventough they have been shown to have abilities that could have granted them the win yet did not use them. As I said and proven, jobbing doesn't apply here. I'm not going to repeat it all over again.

According to you means what? I can provide a link for my definition. Your own is simply what you wish it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_slang

Take a look and report back to me after you have accepted the definition.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
That's called irony.

You know what they say about people in glass houses.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Actually this scans are from after the COIE, and it's pretty obvious since it even mentions the COIE and how Spectre could have stopped it. Him becoming one with God proves .. what ? Because that point doesn't really show anything. The right definition of jobbing ? And what is that really ? Yours or the logical one which I presented ? As for the Omnipotent discussion, like I said, Spectre was Omnipotent but didn't exercise his power to its fullest potential.

In the end, what are we arguing about ? The fact that Spectre wasn't Omnipotent ? He was, as stated by God. The fact that against Anti-Monitor he didn't use his powers to its fullest ? We both agree upon that and it's also stated in the scans I presented. So what exactly are you trying to prove ?

I was referring to the instance in which he became God, according to you. That was in the 60s, no?

It shows that because he had wielded said power before, your faulty assumption that he lacked understanding of his power fails.

The right definition of jobbing is as it is defined from its origins, which is what I am using. You are arguing against it for what exactly? Should I perhaps inform Webster that you intend to rewrite their lexicon according to your "logical" take on things?

If you read my posts with any degree of understanding, you would see that I agree that the Spectre can be assumed to be omnipotent, as per the narration. We also agree that he did not use it fully against the AM. Your argument is that AM = "one of the most powerful versions of Spectre", ergo AM is Spectre level, while cleanly forgetting that the Spectre was NOT using his full ability. You and I have both agreed that Spectre should have won. His "omnipotence" should not have been answered by any being below God. That in itself is jobbing, or a sugarcoated term such as holding back etc.

Thus, Spectre cannot be stalemated by AM if he was omnipotent.

However, he was. => Spectre either was not omnipotent (we agree this is not the case) or was jobbing/holding back.

Thus, AM =/= an omnipotent Spectre, which means your hyperbole about him stalemating a "powerful version of Spectre" or an "omnipotent" Spectre has been shown to be nonsense.

What has that got to do with the difference between knowing how to use power and using it unwisely? Missing forest for the trees and all that.

I'm not referring to Specter at full power. I am referring to his optimal use of power, of lack thereof. Interpret it then. Why exactly was said power impossible to use? Was it understanding? You tell me. Spectre at full ability is supposedly God (According to you), so by your logic, him not being able to use his full ability fits into the fact that he was weaker in COIE.

In this case, using it unwisely and not being to use it to its fullest potential is the same thing. And yes, it was probably and most likely his lack of understanding of the power he wielded that he failed to use it to its fullest. Spectre at full power yes, pretty much merges with God but that doesn't really prove anything and has nothing to do with this case.

According to you means what? I can provide a link for my definition. Your own is simply what you wish it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profes...wrestling_slang

Take a look and report back to me after you have accepted the definition.

We are talking about Comics not Wrestling 😬

I'm applying the definition based strictly on comics.

I will give an example.

Character A has been shown to have abilities far surpassing character B's yet character B defeats him in a fight when he shouldn't have based on their powersets and the fact that character A has been shown to have abilities with which he can beat character A but he hasn't used them in a fight. Does this qualify as Jobbing ? Yes.

But if character A has been stated to have certain abilities yet was never shown to be able to understand them fully and loses to character B to which character A's potential abilities are superior, does this qualify as jobbing ?

I was referring to the instance in which he became God, according to you. That was in the 60s, no?

It shows that because he had wielded said power before, your faulty assumption that he lacked understanding of his power fails.

No, it was many years after COIE and the scans I presented where God reffers to his abilities.

The right definition of jobbing is as it is defined from its origins, which is what I am using. You are arguing against it for what exactly? Should I perhaps inform Webster that you intend to rewrite their lexicon according to your "logical" take on things?

I'd rather not repeat what I said in the same post, I explained above what jobbing is in comics.

If you read my posts with any degree of understanding, you would see that I agree that the Spectre can be assumed to be omnipotent, as per the narration. We also agree that he did not use it fully against the AM. Your argument is that AM = "one of the most powerful versions of Spectre", ergo AM is Spectre level, while cleanly forgetting that the Spectre was NOT using his full ability. You and I have both agreed that Spectre should have won. His "omnipotence" should not have been answered by any being below God. That in itself is jobbing, or a sugarcoated term such as holding back etc.

Thus, Spectre cannot be stalemated by AM if he was omnipotent.

However, he was. => Spectre either was not omnipotent (we agree this is not the case) or was jobbing/holding back.

Thus, AM =/= an omnipotent Spectre, which means your hyperbole about him stalemating a "powerful version of Spectre" or an "omnipotent" Spectre has been shown to be nonsense.

Who said that I'm forgetting the fact that Spectre wasn't at his fullest ? I posted scans backing up the fact that he wasn't using his full potential and I already said that if he would fully understand his powers and used them to his fullest potential he would have defeated the AM. He is more powerfull than the Anti-Monitor. What I pointed out is that AM stalemated this version of Spectre who although wasn't at it's fullest potential, is still a very good showing from Anti-Monitor's power.
But apparently we have different views on the word "jobbing". I see someone as jobbing when they have shown to have abilities that put them above their adversary yet not use them in a fight against them, not somebody who is stated that have the ability yet they have not been shown to reach it's fullest potential.

LT for the win

Spectre was jobbing in COIE

Accidentally edited away this post. Erik, I will reply if have already quoted my post. If not, I see little reason to carry on. My points have been proven.

LT > Spectre 🙂