Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In this case, using it unwisely and not being to use it to its fullest potential is the same thing. And yes, it was probably and most likely his lack of understanding of the power he wielded that he failed to use it to its fullest. Spectre at full power yes, pretty much merges with God but that doesn't really prove anything and has nothing to do with this case.
I have found some time between a couple of reports, so I shall rewrite my last post.
Firstly, using power unwisely and not using power optimally are not the same things. Even if I had optimal control of the IG, I could use said power to wreak havoc, thus being unwise from a conventional point of view.
Secondly, if Spectre at FP = God, according to yourself (a view I do not necessarily subscribe to), the scan you showed is kind of useless, unless you are arguing that Spectre could have been at full potential during COIE.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
We are talking about Comics not Wrestling 😬
Guess where the term "jobbing" comes from?
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm applying the definition based strictly on comics.I will give an example.
Character A has been shown to have abilities far surpassing character B's yet character B defeats him in a fight when he shouldn't have based on their powersets and the fact that character A has been shown to have abilities with which he can beat character A but he hasn't used them in a fight. Does this qualify as Jobbing ? Yes.
But if character A has been stated to have certain abilities yet was never shown to be able to understand them fully and loses to character B to which character A's potential abilities are superior, does this qualify as jobbing ?
Let me break your reasoning down. Your reasoning is that a character is jobbing when he is defeated even though he is in possession of greater abilities than his opponent. Power levels count here, not power sets. We have both agreed that the omnipotent Spectre was > AM, and the very notion of omnipotence means that his power level was higher than that of any other DC being save God. However, he failed to beat AM (we could count this as a loss because he was assigned to beat AM, and failed in his objective) even with the higher power level. That in itself constitutes jobbing even by your own definition.
However, saying that a character is jobbing when defeated without using his full range of abilities is erroneous. If J'onn loses to a top tier without using the 1001 abilities he has, can you really call that jobbing? If he gets one-shotted by DS without using an exotic power, is that jobbing? I think we can both see that the questions are rhetorical. Full usage of power sets only matter when versatility is necessary (see SS/lanterns vs doomsday) or when a certain power affects a battle drastically (k-nite manipulation vs superman). In any other situation, power levels take precedence over usage of power sets.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
No, it was many years after COIE and the scans I presented where God reffers to his abilities.
I remember an arc during the Corrigan times when he became one with all. I was referring to the scans you used to show the Spectre with godhood. Are they the same?
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'd rather not repeat what I said in the same post, I explained above what jobbing is in comics.
I have polished your definition and shown you why Soectre was jobbing even by your definition.
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Who said that I'm forgetting the fact that Spectre wasn't at his fullest ? I posted scans backing up the fact that he wasn't using his full potential and I already said that if he would fully understand his powers and used them to his fullest potential he would have defeated the AM. He is more powerfull than the Anti-Monitor. What I pointed out is that AM stalemated this version of Spectre who although wasn't at it's fullest potential, is still a very good showing from Anti-Monitor's power.
But apparently we have different views on the word "jobbing". I see someone as jobbing when they have shown to have abilities that put them above their adversary yet not use them in a fight against them, not somebody who is stated that have the ability yet they have not been shown to reach it's fullest potential.
Hmmm, that's an easy one. You initially used a version of Spectre who was claimed to be "omnipotent", have "limitless power" and who was one of Spectre's most powerful versions, said that AM stalemated with it and then postulated that AM could beat LT. Stalemating Spectre was obviously AM's best feat, but that is a Spectre was omnipotent yet jobbing (my view) or unable to use his power properly (your view). I have already asked where COIE spectre then stands on the power scale, but you were unable to answer because you could not make the assumptions necessary to answer. However, I do not recall any discourses on ambiguity when you reasoned that a being that stalemated the COIE spectre could draw with or beat the LT. It's still a good showing, a very good showing, but Abraxas has some pretty damn impressive showings as well, and he will never come close to the IG, much less the LT.
Let me rehash once again.
Spectre while jobbing/cumbered = AM (for that one showing)
Thus, AM >= LT? (even while considering the trouble DS/Luthor/supergirl/top tiers/shadow poisoning managed to cause?)
I think you can understand that AM >= LT is blatantly ridiculous.
Barring any exceptional circumstances, this will be my last post on this matter. Newcomers will believe what they will from our debate, and others will carry on believing what they believe. Nice debate, though. 👆
LT still wins
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirlDs with prep failed to get the godwave. 😉 Hes good with prep but taking on the Lt he would fail.
This thread fails. I could see if DS had prep. Yeah he could make a machine like Reed's and pwn the LT with his own energies. And I'm sure that The AM could be a threat to the LT. Lessor beings have been. But in the end, LT wins.
Now Thanos has taken out the Lt but we are talking about Ds who isnt as good at prep as Mr. Thanos is.
I have found some time between a couple of reports, so I shall rewrite my last post.Firstly, using power unwisely and not using power optimally are not the same things. Even if I had optimal control of the IG, I could use said power to wreak havoc, thus being unwise from a conventional point of view.
Secondly, if Spectre at FP = God, according to yourself (a view I do not necessarily subscribe to), the scan you showed is kind of useless, unless you are arguing that Spectre could have been at full potential during COIE.
In the context of said comic, unwise mostly reffers to Specter not using/being capable of using his power so that he would defeat the Anti-Monitor. For example if a person gets incredible powers yet has not had a chance or simply can't explore it to its fullest potential.
And I don't exactly understand why one scan nullifies the other ? Besides, there are 2 different circumstances. When Spectre became God he practically contained creation inside of him, a creation that was destroyed and reborn inside of him. That's pretty much on a whole new level from what he was in COIE.
Guess where the term "jobbing" comes from?
We still have to accostume it to the comics.
Let me break your reasoning down. Your reasoning is that a character is jobbing when he is defeated even though he is in possession of greater abilities than his opponent. Power levels count here, not power sets. We have both agreed that the omnipotent Spectre was > AM, and the very notion of omnipotence means that his power level was higher than that of any other DC being save God. However, he failed to beat AM (we could count this as a loss because he was assigned to beat AM, and failed in his objective) even with the higher power level. That in itself constitutes jobbing even by your own definition.However, saying that a character is jobbing when defeated without using his full range of abilities is erroneous. If J'onn loses to a top tier without using the 1001 abilities he has, can you really call that jobbing? If he gets one-shotted by DS without using an exotic power, is that jobbing? I think we can both see that the questions are rhetorical. Full usage of power sets only matter when versatility is necessary (see SS/lanterns vs doomsday) or when a certain power affects a battle drastically (k-nite manipulation vs superman). In any other situation, power levels take precedence over usage of power sets.
I have polished your definition and shown you why Soectre was jobbing even by your definition.
The situation in which Spectre lost does not constitue jobbing because eventough he was stronger than Anti-Monitor, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God he couldn't acces/use the full potential of his abilities as the Presence even stated. I consider jobbing a situation where character A can't defeat character B because character B has been shown for example to withstand greater attacks than character A can dish out yet character A still beats him. For example Firelord being knocked out by Spiderman (the classic one) or Silver Surfer being bothered by Storm's lightning. Those are situations, at least in my definition of the word, where somebody jobbs.
Spectre has not shown to have full control of his powers nor displayed power that shows he can beat Anti-Monitor so just because he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor yet couldn't use his abilities at full potential and didn't beat Anti-Monitor does not mean jobbing.
I remember an arc during the Corrigan times when he became one with all. I was referring to the scans you used to show the Spectre with godhood. Are they the same?
Yes.
Hmmm, that's an easy one. You initially used a version of Spectre who was claimed to be "omnipotent", have "limitless power" and who was one of Spectre's most powerful versions, said that AM stalemated with it and then postulated that AM could beat LT. Stalemating Spectre was obviously AM's best feat, but that is a Spectre was omnipotent yet jobbing (my view) or unable to use his power properly (your view). I have already asked where COIE spectre then stands on the power scale, but you were unable to answer because you could not make the assumptions necessary to answer. However, I do not recall any discourses on ambiguity when you reasoned that a being that stalemated the COIE spectre could draw with or beat the LT. It's still a good showing, a very good showing, but Abraxas has some pretty damn impressive showings as well, and he will never come close to the IG, much less the LT.Let me rehash once again.
Spectre while jobbing/cumbered = AM (for that one showing)
Thus, AM >= LT? (even while considering the trouble DS/Luthor/supergirl/top tiers/shadow poisoning managed to cause?)
I think you can understand that AM >= LT is blatantly ridiculous.
I said that he stalemated one of the strongest versions of the Spectre while at the same time I posted scans where it's also reffered that he wasn't using his full potential and that he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor. I did not state that Anti-Monitor was as strong as the Spectre during COIE just that he was able to stand up to him, which itself is a feat despite the fact that Spectre wasn't using the full range of his powers with which he would have defeated the Anti-Monitor. Spectre (full potential, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God) > Anti-Monitor . We both agree upon that.
This was essentially one of my two arguments showing that Anti-Monitor can compete with the Living Tribunal, along with the fact that the Anti-matter wave consumed nearly all the infinite Multiverse and that with each Universe consumed his power was added to Anti-Monitor's. Thus Anti-Monitor had an the power of an infinite number of Universes at his strongest.
Barring any exceptional circumstances, this will be my last post on this matter. Newcomers will believe what they will from our debate, and others will carry on believing what they believe.
As it will be mine, since we have pretty much expressed our different opinions
Nice debate, though. thumb up
Yeah. It was nice talking to you 🙂
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In the context of said comic, unwise mostly reffers to Specter not using/being capable of using his power so that he would defeat the Anti-Monitor. For example if a person gets incredible powers yet has not had a chance or simply can't explore it to its fullest potential.
And I don't exactly understand why one scan nullifies the other ? Besides, there are 2 different circumstances. When Spectre became God he practically contained creation inside of him, a creation that was destroyed and reborn inside of him. That's pretty much on a whole new level from what he was in COIE.We still have to accostume it to the comics.
The situation in which Spectre lost does not constitue jobbing because eventough he was stronger than Anti-Monitor, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God he couldn't acces/use the full potential of his abilities as the Presence even stated. I consider jobbing a situation where character A can't defeat character B because character B has been shown for example to withstand greater attacks than character A can dish out yet character A still beats him. For example Firelord being knocked out by Spiderman (the classic one) or Silver Surfer being bothered by Storm's lightning. Those are situations, at least in my definition of the word, where somebody jobbs.
Spectre has not shown to have full control of his powers nor displayed power that shows he can beat Anti-Monitor so just because he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor yet couldn't use his abilities at full potential and didn't beat Anti-Monitor does not mean jobbing.Yes.
I said that he stalemated one of the strongest versions of the Spectre while at the same time I posted scans where it's also reffered that he wasn't using his full potential and that he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor. I did not state that Anti-Monitor was as strong as the Spectre during COIE just that he was able to stand up to him, which itself is a feat despite the fact that Spectre wasn't using the full range of his powers with which he would have defeated the Anti-Monitor. Spectre (full potential, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God) > Anti-Monitor . We both agree upon that.
This was essentially one of my two arguments showing that Anti-Monitor can compete with the Living Tribunal, along with the fact that the Anti-matter wave consumed nearly all the infinite Multiverse and that with each Universe consumed his power was added to Anti-Monitor's. Thus Anti-Monitor had an the power of an infinite number of Universes at his strongest.
As it will be mine, since we have pretty much expressed our different opinions
Yeah. It was nice talking to you 🙂
It is good to see a civilized debate such as this for a change. No matter which side I agree with, both debaters presented their points excellently.