Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Not so much that the others aren't Christian, but that they aren't the correct Christians. I have heard them say once that, being the true Church of God (the living Church) that they are thus the true path for Christians to salvation.
I can agree with that. Although, we wouldn't claim that others will not be saved, only that following being saved Heaven is different depending on the law you chose to obey.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
You dill. Yes, I am using harsh language, and I stand by it. A Christian is defined by Jesus and the Bible. It doesn't matter how they approach it, ultimately if they have Jesus AND the Bible, they are technically, theologically and literally Christian. It doesn't matter whether they were the first or last. A Christian sect/denomination is defined by having Jesus and the Bible as the focus of their beliefs. Just as a Buddhist sect or denomination relies on Buddha and the like, or Islamic sects professing a belief in the Qur'an. Doesn't matter if they are Sunni or Shi'ite, they are Islamic!
* speaking of the Bible, looky here...
"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself ."
John 7:17
* know first the doctrine, if it be of God or not...
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed ."
Galatians 1:8
* as a true Christian, we must know the doctrine if it's of God or not... if it's not of God, we should reject it...
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And? Do you really understand Catholic faith? Saints and relics are viewed as essentially emissaries to God. They aren't worshipped as God or Jesus, but rather special individuals blessed to act on God's behalf. Thus they pray that Saint Jude or Saint Boniface hear their need and take it to God. Yes, technicality you might say, but irrelevant none the less. This approach does not stop them being Christian, just because you don't like it.
* it's not because i don't like it... it is because, according to the Bible, God does not like it... read my post -> Deuteronomy 5:8-9...
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
You want to know why? Because they still follow Jesus and the Bible.
* if they follow Jesus and the Bible as you say, they would follow this:
"After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."
Matthew 6:9
"In nothing be anxious; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God ."
Philippians 4:6
* the manner of praying that Christ and Saint Paul taught, is to pray directly to the Father... not to those they claim "saints"... they are mere dead humans, and what does the Bible say about dead humans?
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten ."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
* if the dead know not anything, how can they hear their need and take it to God?
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I don't need to read the Bible. I have read it enough times to last me a life time.
* i think now, you should...
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
You, and people like you, are deciding on doctrine.
* i only post what's according to the Bible, not my own opinion... in fact, it is you who's blurting out everything that does not coincide with the Bible... the Bible that you claim, together with Jesus makes a Christian, that's how shallow your understanding of being a Christian...
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
The very reason why there are so many sects/denominations. But as I said before? You know what? It doesn't change a thing - Catholics remain Christian. Their Church is based on the Bible. They pray to Jesus.
* you just said, they are praying to "saints" and worshipping "relics"...
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
They get baptised and all the other stuff. By definition they ARE Christian. Just because you have a problem with the way they approach their version of Christianity doesn't change a thing. Only two things are needed to make you Christian:Jesus + Bible = Christian.
Jesus + Bible - Saints/Relics = Christian
Jesus + Bible + Book of Mormon = Christian
Jesus + Bible + Fasting/not seeing doctors/self flagellation = Christian
Why, because nothing else matters in terms of definition. Bible + Jesus is what defines a person as Christian, anything after that is irrelevant. Your problem is that you don't think the Catholics are following the Bible right. Your problem doesn't stop them being any more or less Christian.
* it's not my problem... in actuality, you have a big problem of accepting a religious group that claims to be Christian but is in direct contrary of the Christian doctrine...
* yes, my posts won't stop Catholics on claiming themselves as Christians, that's why i'm providing the proofs in the Bible... it's just too hard for you to swallow... your bad... 😉
Originally posted by peejaydThis does not show the missing years of Jesus.. 🙄
* ain't it sufficient enough?"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary , the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."
Mark 6:3* they know that Jesus is a carpenter,
* they know that Jesus is the son of Mary,
* they know that Jesus is the brother of James, Joses, Juda & Simon,
* they know that Jesus' sisters were offended at Him,
* what else?"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"
Matthew 13:55* they know that Jesus is the son of Joseph, the carpenter... 😉
Originally posted by Nellinator
Jesus + Bible - Saints/Relics = Jesus + Bible = Christian
Jesus + Bible + Saints/Relics = Idolatry + Highway to Hell (ACDC forever)
Jesus + Bible + Book of Mormon = Mormon, a type of Christian yes
Jesus + Bible + Fasting/not seeing doctors/self flagellation = idiot..... that is still a Christian
Originally posted by Alliance
Jesus = Messiah = Christian.Simple 🙂
* i'm sorry, but i have to disagree with these...
-> idolatry & relics:
"Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image , nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them : for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,"
Deuteronomy 5:8-9
* it is very clear that idolatry is prohibited in the Bible...
* if creating and worshipping graven images are prohibited in the Bible, then moreso in relics, which are only associated with Catholic saints...
-> self-flagellation:
"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you : I am the LORD."
Leviticus 19:28
* self-flagellation is also prohibited...
* so, you see, i believe a Christian group is a group that abides what the Bible tells...
"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God , or whether I speak of myself."
John 7:17
* know first if the doctrine they preach is of God... how can we know or distinguish if it is of God or not?
"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written ; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other."
I Corinthians 4:6
* we should learn through the apostles not to go beyond the things which are written...
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed ."
Galatians 1:8
* if it is against the Scriptures, we should reject it...
* this is how the Bible says:
-> God & Christ -> Bible -> doctrine of God & Christ -> faith, love & hope -> good works, deeds = Christian... 😎
Originally posted by debbiejo
This does not show the missing years of Jesus.. 🙄
Originally posted by Nellinator
It cannot be proven what Jesus did during that time, but a rational conclusion would be that he continued to study the Word (he had incredible knowledge of it) and learned a trade of some sort for he was not ignorant of the professions that many people in his day had as is shown in his parables.
* then, let's read it's context...
"And he went out from thence; and he cometh into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
And when the sabbath was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, Whence hath this man these things? and, What is the wisdom that is given unto this man, and what mean such mighty works wrought by his hands ?"
Mark 6:1-2
"And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
And coming into his own country he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works ?"
Matthew 13:53-54
* the Jews were astonished to see Christ have great wisdom and can do mighty works and miracles, why were they astonished?
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary , and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him."
Mark 6:3
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary ? and his brethren, James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas?"
Matthew 13:55
* because they knew Christ from 13-29 years of His age that He did not study from any kind of school, may be it educational or religious... the Jews just knew Christ as a mere carpenter, a son of a carpenter... the Jews even knew Jesus' brothers and sisters in flesh...
* the Jews were astonished to see Christ have wisdom and perform mighty works, inspite of the fact that they knew Him only as a carpenter... that proves that Jesus' missing years was devoted to carpentry... 😉
peejayd. I am going to try a simpler tact.
You are trying to claim that doctrine defines a person as Christian.
Christian is a universal/umbrella term for the faith which believes in the Bible/Jesus.
Doctrine defines which particular sect/denomination a Christian belongs to.
Your argument is misjudged and based upon false definitions. Quote the Bible, interpret it however you like. The fact is, that in terms of terminology (pun, I know) a Christian only has to believe in Jesus to qualify as Christian.
Thus, trying to claim that Catholic doctrine excludes them from the universal term Christian is erroneous. Catholic doctrine excludes them from being called Protestant or Mormon or Christian Scientist. Catholic doctrine does not stop them being Christian, just as Mormon or Christian Scientist doctrine does not stop them from being Christian. I get the fact you dislike Catholic doctrine, I get the fact you think God doesn't like Catholic doctrine. I get the fact that you think the Bible doesn't like Catholic doctrine. You need to get the fact that is irrelevant. As I said before Jesus/Bible = Christian. Doctrine doesn't enter into it.
But you know what Catholic doctrine does? Exactly what you are doing. They interpret ye old Bible. They think Saints have a place in it. Just as self flagellates believe that. I bet if we looked closely enough at you there would be at least one thing in the Bible (probably old testament) that you don't strictly adhere to, or you reinterpret. Catholics, Orthodox, Church of England do exactly the same. It is the reason there are sooooo many. Because Christians can't decide on the correct doctrine.
* so, we have different opinions...
* i understand that in your opinion, Christian is a universal/umbrella term for the faith which believes in the Bible/Jesus... that's fine with me, i respect your opinion...
* however, what i'm saying is - anyone who claims to believe in Jesus/Bible, should also be in accordance with what Jesus commands in the Bible...
* my point is, there are laws in the Bible, particularly of Christ... Christians in the Bible obey these laws... so, if anyone claims to be a Christian, and does NOT obey these laws, they are NOT true Christians... i hope you got my point... 😉
* IMO, and according to the Bible, a "Christian" is not just a word or a term, it is the embodiment of people who follow and obey the doctrine of Christ... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* however, what i'm saying is - anyone who claims to believe in Jesus/Bible, should also be in accordance with what Jesus commands in the Bible...* my point is, there are laws in the Bible, particularly of Christ... Christians in the Bible obey these laws... so, if anyone claims to be a Christian, and does NOT obey these laws, they are NOT true Christians... i hope you got my point... 😉
* IMO, and according to the Bible, a "Christian" is not just a word or a term, it is the embodiment of people who follow and obey the doctrine of Christ... 😉
The thing is...people have different interpretations of what the bible says. Even if you take the book "literally" it can still say many different things. Catholics just follow a different interpretation, but they dont hold Christ or his teachings in any lower regard than yourself.
Originally posted by Alliance
The thing is...people have different interpretations of what the bible says. Even if you take the book "literally" it can still say many different things. Catholics just follow a different interpretation, but they dont hold Christ or his teachings in any lower regard than yourself.
Exactly.
Originally posted by peejayd
* so, we have different opinions...* i understand that in your opinion, Christian is a universal/umbrella term for the faith which believes in the Bible/Jesus... that's fine with me, i respect your opinion...
The thing is my opinion isn't based upon my personal interpretation of what the Bible says a Christian is. What I am saying is the view held and presented by the sources that define things such as this. So it is not just my "opinion", it is the same definition that dictrionaries, theological historians, language evolution scholars etc will support. Why? Because Christianity/Islam/Buddhism etc is not defined by approaches to doctrine, but rather to the basis of such doctrines - Jesus/Bible. The Qur'an. And so on.
* IMO, and according to the Bible, a "Christian" is not just a word or a term, it is the embodiment of people who follow and obey the doctrine of Christ...
And they believe they are doing just that. In fact if you ask them some will say that it is you that is not following correctly. And you are concentrating on Catholics. By your definition a mass of Christian sects/denominations aren't Christian because of their doctrinal interpretations.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
The thing is my opinion isn't based upon my personal interpretation of what the Bible says a Christian is. What I am saying is the view held and presented by the sources that define things such as this. So it is not just my "opinion", it is the same definition that dictrionaries, theological historians, language evolution scholars etc will support. Why? Because Christianity/Islam/Buddhism etc is not defined by approaches to doctrine, but rather to the basis of such doctrines - Jesus/Bible. The Qur'an. And so on.And they believe they are doing just that. In fact if you ask them some will say that it is you that is not following correctly. And you are concentrating on Catholics. By your definition a mass of Christian sects/denominations aren't Christian because of their doctrinal interpretations.
Originally posted by Alliance
The thing is...people have different interpretations of what the bible says. Even if you take the book "literally" it can still say many different things. Catholics just follow a different interpretation, but they dont hold Christ or his teachings in any lower regard than yourself.
* uhmm... okay... i got it... but let me be specific for while...
"Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,"
Deuteronomy 5:8-9
* here's a commandment of God, it's supposed to be the 2nd of the Ten Commandments... may i ask you both, how can the Catholics prove that creating and worshipping graven images are alright and not prohibited when it is blatantly written in the Bible?
* i know we differ in interpretations but what kind of interpretation did they do in Deuteronomy 5:8-9? can you say that i'm wrong here in this scenario, and they are right? or we're both wrong? or we're both right? 😕
Originally posted by peejayd
* uhmm... okay... i got it... but let me be specific for while..."Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,"
Deuteronomy 5:8-9* here's a commandment of God, it's supposed to be the 2nd of the Ten Commandments... may i ask you both, how can the Catholics prove that creating and worshipping graven images are alright and not prohibited when it is blatantly written in the Bible?
* i know we differ in interpretations but what kind of interpretation did they do in Deuteronomy 5:8-9? can you say that i'm wrong here in this scenario, and they are right? or we're both wrong? or we're both right? 😕
I would empathise again that it is not really about this, but anyway.
Catholics do not believe they are worshipping graven images. If asked they will say "we are not worshipping saints, we only worship God/Jesus." The Catholics do not believe they are breaking the second commandment. They cross themselves before the giant Jesus statue and all that.
However they believe that Saints are special. People chose by God. Chosen to act more closely on his behalf, people who he acts through, the perform miracles and such. The Saints began with the Disciples and continue to today, where the Pope can declare a person a saint if they have a certain number of verified miracles attributed to them. I have heard Saints referred to as "God's soldiers" or "agents of God." Thus a Catholic might pray to Saint Jude about some lost thing, in the belief that Saint Jude is a servant of God, chosen to act on God's behalf. They don't believe Saint Jude IS God/Jesus. They aren't praying to him AS God/Jesus. And they would say "God gives these Saints power should not we respect them."
Once again it comes down to definition - Saints etc are a matter of doctrine. They do not exclude a group from being called Christianity. In fact, as galling as it might seem to you, Christians don't even need to follow the ten commandments to be called Christians. Jesus and the Bible in general are all it takes - rigid adherence to the perceived codes are questions of doctrine. As someone said before - liberal Christians, conservative Christians. Liberal Christians generally are a lot more "loose" with Bible interpretations while conservatives hold views much similar to your own.
"Thou shalt not MAKE unto thee a graven image, nor ANY LIKENESS of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" Deuteronomy 5:8-9.
Its pretty clear that Catholics are wrong. No argument can change what this can possibly mean. As for the VENERATION of Saints it is acceptable to treat a Saint as a role model to be emulated, but the Bible also says to pray in the name of Jesus, never does it say that the name of Saints nor the name of Mary. This is what I call making a religion up on the bases of what they want not what God wants.
Originally posted by rare_fox
He couldnt be born in december ok it was realy cold out in the winter the sheperds wount be out there from all the coldness ..
(a) laugh at the troll attempt,
(b) laugh at the ignorance,
(c) laugh at both, or
(d) log off and go to bed.
I'm thinking I'm going to sigh and pick (d).
Originally posted by Nellinator
"Thou shalt not MAKE unto thee a graven image, nor ANY LIKENESS of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" Deuteronomy 5:8-9.Its pretty clear that Catholics are wrong. No argument can change what this can possibly mean. As for the VENERATION of Saints it is acceptable to treat a Saint as a role model to be emulated, but the Bible also says to pray in the name of Jesus, never does it say that the name of Saints nor the name of Mary. This is what I call making a religion up on the bases of what they want not what God wants.
As I said then, not only are you declaring Catholics not Christian, but many Christian sects and denominations. But once again for the sake of whatever - interpretation of the Bible is DOCTRINE. What commandment they wish to bend, obey, break is DOCTRINE. Christianity is not defined by DOCTRINE, but belief that Jesus is the Christ. Catholics believe Jesus is the Christ. The fact they make images is a question of DOCTRINE. Ultimately Catholics are not a separate religion. They fall under the banner term Christianity - no matter what objection you have to their DOCTRINE
This is what I call making a religion up on the bases of what they want not what God wants.
..... *speechless*
This is what I call making a religion up on the bases of what they want not what God wants.
........... *still speechless*
This is what I call making a religion up on the bases of what they want not what God wants.
........ Sorry, the part of my brain that deals with irony has just overloaded.