* look, buddy... i told you, i got your point, i respect your opinion... i just moved from general to specific to prove my point... okay?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I would empathise again that it is not really about this, but anyway.

Catholics do not believe they are worshipping graven images. If asked they will say "we are not worshipping saints, we only worship God/Jesus." The Catholics do not believe they are breaking the second commandment. They cross themselves before the giant Jesus statue and all that.

* that's the point, my friend... they are clearly blinded by THEIR OWN doctrine which is obviously unbiblical... if you read (not interpret) Deuteronomy 5:8-9, you will see that it is really prohibited by God to create and worship ANY graven images... if the Catholics still insist that they do not violate this commandment, i question their reading comprehension... Deuteronomy 5:8-9 is very blatant, and it is somewhat stupid to interpret it in its direct opposite...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
However they believe that Saints are special. People chose by God. Chosen to act more closely on his behalf, people who he acts through, the perform miracles and such. The Saints began with the Disciples and continue to today, where the Pope can declare a person a saint if they have a certain number of verified miracles attributed to them. I have heard Saints referred to as "God's soldiers" or "agents of God." Thus a Catholic might pray to Saint Jude about some lost thing, in the belief that Saint Jude is a servant of God, chosen to act on God's behalf. They don't believe Saint Jude IS God/Jesus. They aren't praying to him AS God/Jesus. And they would say "God gives these Saints power should not we respect them."

* however, there is no teaching in the Bible for people to pray to another person, how holy that person may be... i might again say that it's a matter of doctrine or interpretation but the Bible supplies whom people should worship and whom people should pray to... the fact that you claim only Jesus & Bible is a reason for being a Christian, then TRUE Christians should follow, obey, abide those that prove their claim to be a Christian which is -> Jesus & Bible...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Once again it comes down to definition - Saints etc are a matter of doctrine. They do not exclude a group from being called Christianity. In fact, as galling as it might seem to you, Christians don't even need to follow the ten commandments to be called Christians. Jesus and the Bible in general are all it takes - rigid adherence to the perceived codes are questions of doctrine. As someone said before - liberal Christians, conservative Christians. Liberal Christians generally are a lot more "loose" with Bible interpretations while conservatives hold views much similar to your own.

* this is where our differences lie... and i am very open about this on earlier posts... yours is: "Christian is a universal/umbrella term for the faith which believes in the Bible/Jesus" while mine is: "Christian is not just a word or a term, it is the embodiment of people who follow and obey the doctrine of Christ"... 😉