Israel and Lebanon

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Out of all the stupid things I've read from you, i.e. Hezbollah launching rockets before Israel's first bombings, this one nails it. You really are a div. You mean most of these dead people and kids were most likely Hezbollah afterall? So you're saying we might as well kill everyone who moves, because they may be a Hezbollah militant afterall? I suppose in that case the red cross ambulances and the UN post were probably Hezbollah as well? Most of the deaths have been confirmed civilians you idiot by people in a better position to make said confirmation than you.

Go pour yourself a glass of milk and eat a pack of cookies, instead of posting crap, you little pratt.

Stop watching old Vietnam movies and getting your panties in a wad, woops to late. After I sorted through your garbage rant I realized something, I didn't say Israel hit only Hezbollah. I said there is no way to identify honestly how many of the casualties were truly "innocent" and which ones were Hezbollah.

Originally posted by Sam Z
And i have reasons to believe that they are blood thirsty rapists and killers.
You tell me that I wont believe otherwise no matter of what, who's talking, you are buying every crap they say about accidently killing 900 people and terrorists hiding in the kindergardens. Take Palestine for example. Israel says: "those kids had bombs so we had to shoot them down" or "we killed those teenagers because they were terrorists" or "we bombed that village in respone for blah blah" but in reality everything Palestine does is a respone for what they did to them. What it takes you to understand that?

Like I said, if you want to believe Israel bombs kindergarten schools for the fun of it, go ahead; there is nothing I can tell you convince you otherwise.

I never said Israel accidentally killed people, they are waging a war and civilians die in a war, my opinion differs in that those civilian casualties are the fault of Hezbollah. I know you believe they are Israel's fault, not arguing that.

But you didn't answer my question, I cut an reposted it for you so you don't have to scroll up.

'So, what does Israel need to do to appease these terrorist (which is a bad idea, appeasing terrorist only urges them to commit more terrorism)? What would it take to have peace in your eyes?'

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Calm yourself down and stop calling people pratt and idiot.

I don't give a flying **** how horrible Israel's actions are. Show me a link to the unbiased reporting of what happened on this Gaza beach.

Also, Hezbollah has been caught already operating in civilian clothing and unmarked vehicles, what makes you think that there aren't more?

If you don't give a flying f*** how horrible Israel's actions are, then that means you're unconditionnaly backing up Israel no matter what.
Sad : (

I called one person prick and idiot, because he's both. The proof:

Stop watching old Vietnam movies and getting your panties in a wad, woops to late.

Stop watching old vietnam movies and.... alright. The relevance between watching movies and taking out on you for talking crap? I'm quoting myself from a previous post: "Say that again and see if it makes anymore sense the second time around"

After I sorted through your garbage rant I realized something, I didn't say Israel hit only Hezbollah. I said there is no way to identify honestly how many of the casualties were truly "innocent" and which ones were Hezbollah.

You used this comment to defend Israel's actions. As if by magical chance, most of these people dying could be Hezbollah when they're obviously not through all the carnage. Garbage rant? I don't think so, though all of your contributions I've read on this thread have been.

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Show me a link to the unbiased reporting of what happened on this Gaza beach.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/int/ne/nhdr/h1/t/-/news/1/hi/world/middle_east/5065982.stm

So how many of the 900+ are civilians and how many are Hezbollah militants?

Do you know? Do the IDF know? No. Most of their GBU bombs and missiles land in places they suspect without certainty. From all the coverage we have been given, it was obvious civilians have been the ones dying. One third of children dying, individual cars full of people with baggages (who were escaping) being targetted, a children's shelter, full tower blocks with only one suspected Hezbollah office or appartment inside.
Then there's the UN post and the red cross ambulances with all their markings clearly showing (emblems, flags, sirens). Which is probably why people think they don't give a f*ck about who they target.

There's also the fact, that even though south Lebanon has been raised to the ground and the IDF is there, one month later, Katushyas are still being launched. Hence Hezbollah is still very much present in South Lebanon. Hmmm sounds to me like the IDF bombimg was bang on afterall.

[QUOTE]So, what does Israel need to do to appease these terrorist (which is a bad idea, appeasing terrorist only urges them to commit more terrorism)? What would it take to have peace in your eyes?

You have to understand Israel started this crap. They started the shelling the beach, killing civilians and ending a cease-fire with Hamas and thus mobilising Hezbollah against them. They started bombing Lebanon instead of accepting the fact that the kidnappings of their 2 men were their fault, and settling it with an exchange.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Do you know? Do the IDF know? No. Most of their GBU bombs and missiles land in places they suspect without certainty. From all the coverage we have been given, it was obvious civilians have been the ones dying. One third of children dying, individual cars full of people with baggages (who were escaping) being targetted, a children's shelter, full tower blocks with only one suspected Hezbollah office or appartment inside.
Then there's the UN post and the red cross ambulances with all their markings clearly showing (emblems, flags, sirens). Which is probably why people think they don't give a f*ck about who they target.

I never claimed to know, I never claimed the IDF bombings only hit Hezbollah, bombs don't work that way. But it's safe to say you don't know the exact numbers either and just knee-jerk when you see a picture of a dead person.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
There's also the fact, that even though south Lebanon has been raised to the ground and the IDF is there, one month later, Katushyas are still being launched. Hence Hezbollah is still very much present in South Lebanon. Hmmm sounds to me like the IDF bombimg was bang on afterall.

So they should quit because their enemy is continuing the rocket fire... That sounds like a logical military tactic?

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
You have to understand Israel started this crap. They started the shelling the beach, killing civilians and ending a cease-fire with Hamas and thus mobilising Hezbollah against them. They started bombing Lebanon instead of accepting the fact that the kidnappings of their 2 men were their fault, and settling it with an exchange. [/B]

I didn't ask when, what or who started it. I asked what does Israel need to do to stop this conflict, people claim they are the terrorist aggressors, so WHAT DO THEY NEED TO DO for peace to prevail?

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
If you don't give a flying f*** how horrible Israel's actions are, then that means you're unconditionnaly backing up Israel no matter what.
Sad : (

You would know this because?

I called one person prick and idiot, because he's both.

Regardless, why do you need to point it out?

You have to understand Israel started this crap.

Nay, they didn't. Last I checked they started doing all that shit after 10 soldiers were lost to them. Most would consider an attack on their military an act of war.

2 men were their fault

It is the fault of the people that kidnapped. No one forced them to kidnap them (Well, perhaps the Hezbollah soldiers who comitted the kidnapping and attacks did, but no one forced the leadership too), they did it with their own free will. It is their fault they kidnapped them, not Israels.

Originally posted by Robtard
I never claimed to know, I never claimed the IDF bombings only hit Hezbollah, bombs don't work that way. But it's safe to say you don't know the exact numbers either and just knee-jerk when you see a picture of a dead person.

uhh yeah, I am pissed off when I see tons of dead people. I don't see anything wrong in that. I don't need to know the exact numbers to know that they've been bombing mostly the wrong people. There's proof everywhere, some of which was given in my above post.

Originally posted by Robtard
So they should quit because their enemy is continuing the rocket fire... That sounds like a logical military tactic?
[/B]

Hezbollah said they'd stop if Israel f*cked off. Iseael started the conflict themselves, they're the ones who have to stop it. By giving up and going home. Rockets will stop raining down once they leave.

Originally posted by Robtard
I didn't ask when, what or who started it. I asked what does Israel need to do to stop this conflict, people claim they are the terrorist aggressors, so WHAT DO THEY NEED TO DO for peace to prevail? [/B]

Go home. Stop military incursions in foreign lands. Not break cease fires. And withdraw from the little peices of land the arabs want. Except they don't want to do that. At the time peace was about to be acheived in 1995 or 96, their prime minister was assassinated by a zealot jew. To this zealot and many others in Israel, the arabs are the enemy. Now, they have a far right government in power.

You would know this because?

Because, as I said, you mentioned you didn't give a f*ck how bad Israel's actions are?

Nay, they didn't. Last I checked they started doing all that shit after 10 soldiers were lost to them. Most would consider an attack on their military an act of war.

They shelled a beach in Gaza, murdering innocents, which started the attack on those soldiers. Are you deliberately ignoring that fact?

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
It is the fault of the people that kidnapped. No one forced them to kidnap them (Well, perhaps the Hezbollah soldiers who comitted the kidnapping and attacks did, but no one forced the leadership too), they did it with their own free will. It is their fault they kidnapped them, not Israels. [/B]

See above why it's Israels fault. But by following your logic, the state of Lebanon is not at fault either. Only the militants. So why take it out on the whole country? It's not their fault.

Edit.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
You used this comment to defend Israel's actions. As if by magical chance, most of these people dying could be Hezbollah when they're obviously not through all the carnage. Garbage rant? I don't think so, though all of your contributions I've read on this thread have been.

Nope my point is what I have said all along. No one truly knows Hezbollah loses except Hezbollah and they won't release that in order to use that against their enemies.

Please show me how they are OBVIOUSLY not hezbollah. Tell me of the magic you use to tell the difference. What does a terrorist look like among the masses it's occupying.

First off, please answer this question:

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Regardless, why do you need to point it out?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Because, as I said, you mentioned you didn't give a f*ck how bad Israel's actions are?

Not that, I know what I said. How would you know if I unconditionally support them? Please give a direct reply without rhetorical bullshit or sidestep my question.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
They shelled a beach in Gaza, murdering innocents, which started the attack on those soldiers. Are you deliberately ignoring that fact?

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Show me a link to the unbiased reporting of what happened on this Gaza beach.

Also, what defines them as 'innocents'?

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Also, Hezbollah has been caught already operating in civilian clothing and unmarked vehicles, what makes you think that there aren't more?

I'll prove a link to the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#Allegations_of_Hezbollah.27s_human_shield_usage

The smaller numbers encircled by brackets are links to the informations citations and sources, so it is as accurate as it'll get.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
See above why it's Israels fault.

I want links, sources and cold-hard information how it's their 'fault', and proof that Hezbollah was somehow forced to perform those actions by Israeli means. Not your opinion.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
So why take it out on the whole country?

Hezbollah has a bigger military, seats in Lebanon's government, and support of it's population.

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
First off, please answer this question:

Because I wanted to point it out. Your question had nothing to do with the debate at hand. Besides, does it have anything to do with you?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not that, I know what I said. How would you know if I unconditionally support them? Please give a direct reply without rhetorical bullshit or sidestep my question.

I answered your question. It was a direct reply. If you don't choose to accept than that's your problem. You said "I don't give a flying f*ck how horrible Israel's actions are." That's pretty self explanotory.
No matter what the most horrible crap Israel does, you wouldn't care.

Is that good enough or do you want me to make a drawing?

[QUOTE]Also, what defines them as 'innocents'?

I should probaby stop trying to debate with you with that retarded question .

Seven people, including three children, died on Friday when Israeli shells hit a beach in the Gaza Strip

The fact that there were families enjoying a day out on the beach, like you have done somewhere in your life, makes them innocents. I'll also remind you that there was supposed to be a ceasefire.

I'll prove a link to the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#Allegations_of_Hezbollah.27s_human_shield_usage

The smaller numbers encircled by brackets are links to the informations citations and sources, so it is as accurate as it'll get.

I want links, sources and cold-hard information how it's their 'fault', and proof that Hezbollah was somehow forced to perform those actions by Israeli means. Not your opinion.

Hezbollah has a bigger military, seats in Lebanon's government, and support of it's population. [/B]

I gave you a link to the BBC article about the shelling of the beach in Gaza. Hamas because of this ended their end of the ceasefire and kidnapped a soldier. Hezbollah in solidarity with Hamas attacked and kidnapped soldiers as well. They were not "forced" to, but did it anyways to stick up for Hamas. Why? Because Hezbollah and Hamas have been in the same situation for years. They are allies.

That's why I say Israel started all the backlash.

You don't need hard cold sources to know this.

P.S. I don't see much in your wiki entry that contradicts what I have said or gives you much backing. On the contrary. Your source has enough in there to be used against you.

Hezbollah has a bigger military, seats in Lebanon's government, and support of it's population

So that gives Israel the right to take it out on the whole of Lebanon?
And the support is even greater now with Israel's discusting action.

Originally posted by Soleran
Nope my point is what I have said all along. No one truly knows Hezbollah loses except Hezbollah and they won't release that in order to use that against their enemies.

Please show me how they are OBVIOUSLY not hezbollah. Tell me of the magic you use to tell the difference. What does a terrorist look like among the masses it's occupying.

Since it's so hard to identify a Hezbollah militant. How the hell do the IDF know who they are targetting? When they fire GBUs or missiles on tower blocks, houses, cars , infrastructure, all of which are always used by civilians?

There have been Hezbollah casualties, even their leader acknowledged it. So it's undisputable. But, why assume that most of these 1000 casualties are Hezbollah, when almost every source has said otherwise. Families and neighbors of the dead know if said casualty was Hezbollah or not.

The way Lebanese civilian areas have been laid to the ground, it's unavoidable that civilians have been targets. By assuming that the majority of casualties are probably Hezbollah without knowing for sure is silly, because by logic, they are most likely civilians (since cities are being targetted and civilians live in cities).

I gave you examples above of targets which are obviously mishits. Also, are you telling me 300 + children were Hezbollah? The babies too?

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Because I wanted to point it out. Your question had nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Neither did your insulting him.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Besides, does it have anything to do with you?

I could use that exact same logic on you and ask you "What does the Leboneese and Israeli conflict have to do with you?".

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
You said "I don't give a flying f*ck how horrible Israel's actions are." That's pretty self explanotory.

Carefully note the present tense of the sentence you quoted. I hope that's self-explanatory.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
No matter what the most horrible crap Israel does, you wouldn't care.

Last time I checked, I was me, not you. Don't even presume to think you know my reactions.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Is that good enough or do you want me to make a drawing?

😂

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
I should probaby stop trying to debate with you with that retarded question.

I haven't seen any debating from you yet.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
I gave you a link to the BBC article

Which I missed, many apologies.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Hamas because of this ended their end of the ceasefire and kidnapped a soldier.

Fight fire with fire, eh?

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
They were not "forced" to, but did it anyways to stick up for Hamas. Why? Because Hezbollah and Hamas have been in the same situation for years. They are allies.

What situation? Last time I checked, Israel had pulled both out of the Gaza strip and Lebanon. They weren't in any situation whatsoever and then they both created one.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
That's why I say Israel started all the backlash.

The shelling was a stupid move on Israel's part. Responding to it by kidnapping soldiers was even stupider.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
P.S. I don't see much in your wiki entry that contradicts what I have said or gives you much backing.

It gives this statement backing:

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Also, Hezbollah has been caught already operating in civilian clothing and unmarked vehicles, what makes you think that there aren't more?

If you need further explanation into it's intent, it's proof that they were masquerading as civilians and that other 'civilian casualties' could very well (and likely are) be Hezbollah.

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Your source has enough in there to be used against you.

Oh no?

Bah

Are you being the devil's advocate? Provoking speech just for the sake of argument?

I could use that exact same logic on you and ask you "What does the Leboneese and Israeli conflict have to do with you?"

My post was directed at him and my insult was directed at him. That is why the insult has nothing to do with you and you shouldn't be dragging this on and on as if you even gave a toss. Are you his mother?

Carefully note the present tense of the sentence you quoted. I hope that's self-explanatory.

I'm afraid it is not. You've completely lost me...

I haven't seen any debating from you yet.

So what have I been doing all this time on this thread then? Discussing my sex life?

Which I missed, many apologies.

Why, don't worry about it, my dear ;P

Fight fire with fire, eh?

They can't do anything else, they are the underdogs and in no position to use diplomacy. Only Israel can use water to end everything once and for all but it prefers to use fire.

What situation? Last time I checked, Israel had pulled both out of the Gaza strip and Lebanon. They weren't in any situation whatsoever and then they both created one.

I was speaking of the previous situation. When Israel occupied their territory. That is what makes them similar and allies.

Israel did indeed pull out, but didn't cease military operations which is what a ceasefire is supposed to end . When you fire on a beach, you don't "cease fire", you fire.

The shelling was a stupid move on Israel's part. Responding to it by kidnapping soldiers was even stupider.

I doubt they expected Israel to throw such a hissy fit at the cost of so many human lives. It "was even stupider" because of what has happened as a result: Israel's disproportianate response.

If you need further explanation into it's intent, it's proof that they were masquerading as civilians and that other 'civilian casualties' could very well (and likely are) be Hezbollah.

I'll post my post destined to your protegé Soleran which responds to your statement:

<I>Since it's so hard to identify a Hezbollah militant. How the hell do the IDF know who they are targetting? When they fire GBUs or missiles on tower blocks, houses, cars , infrastructure, all of which are always used by civilians?

There have been Hezbollah casualties, even their leader acknowledged it. So it's undisputable. But, why assume that most of these 1000 casualties are Hezbollah, when almost every source has said otherwise. Families and neighbors of the dead know if said casualty was Hezbollah or not.

The way Lebanese civilian areas have been laid to the ground, it's unavoidable that civilians have been targets. By assuming that the majority of casualties are probably Hezbollah without knowing for sure is silly, because by logic, they are most likely civilians (since cities are being targetted and civilians live in cities).

I gave you examples above of targets which are obviously mishits. Also, are you telling me 300 + children were Hezbollah? The babies too?</I>

Oh no?

I'll assume you meant "Oh yes?"

I'm too lazy to post stuff from your wiki source right now. But it's a whole supermarket for arguments to use against what you and others think. Off the top of my head, there's a quote in there off the Israeli defence minister saying "They'd send the country back 20 years."
This practically illustrates vengeful fury on the IDF's part with no regard to what it will do to Lebanon or its people. Probably jealous that Lebanon's econmy has been prospering and the country as a whole has been doing well ever since they withdrew 6 years ago.

xmarksthespot has mentioned this quote countless times before she decided to argue about Hiroshima.

[i]Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Go home. Stop military incursions in foreign lands. Not break cease fires. And withdraw from the little peices of land the arabs want. Except they don't want to do that. At the time peace was about to be acheived in 1995 or 96, their prime minister was assassinated by a zealot jew. To this zealot and many others in Israel, the arabs are the enemy. Now, they have a far right government in power. [/B]

That sounds fine and all on a computer screen, but Hezbollah and other Islamic fundamentalist will not be content with that. Israel could withdraw twenty miles into it's border, become a recluse having zero contact with surrounding Arab countries and they would still not be appeased. They simply want Israel gone, completely gone as in erased; they have said this themselves.

So what should Israel do considering that?

Originally posted by Robtard
That sounds fine and all on a computer screen, but Hezbollah and other Islamic fundamentalist will not be content with that. Israel could withdraw twenty miles into it's border, become a recluse having zero contact with surrounding Arab countries and they would still not be appeased. They simply want Israel gone, completely gone as in erased; they have said this themselves.

So what should Israel do considering that?

This is what pisses off a lot of people about the middle eastern countries , due to some tiny little thing they'll instantly want this 'offending coutnry' completely wiped off the map .

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
My post was directed at him and my insult was directed at him. That is why the insult has nothing to do with you and you shouldn't be dragging this on and on as if you even gave a toss. Are you his mother?

Yes.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
I'm afraid it is not. You've completely lost me...

The present tense indicated that right now I couldn't give a flying ****, not nesecarily in the future.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
So what have I been doing all this time on this thread then? Discussing my sex life?

Possibly.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
They can't do anything else, they are the underdogs and in no position to use diplomacy. Only Israel can use water to end everything once and for all but it prefers to use fire.

Israel is the underdog in the middle-east. Literally, everyone wants them gone. So excuse them for responded harshly when they get poked after getting beaten for almost a half century (And to a greater extent, a millenia)

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
Israel did indeed pull out, but didn't cease military operations which is what a ceasefire is supposed to end . When you fire on a beach, you don't "cease fire", you fire.

Which justifies kidnapping people, correct?

<I>Since it's so hard to identify a Hezbollah militant. How the hell do the IDF know who they are targetting? When they fire GBUs or missiles on tower blocks, houses, cars , infrastructure, all of which are always used by civilians?

Congrats, you have stumped me.

I'll assume you meant "Oh yes?"

Wrong. I meant that in a sarcastic tone, as in I couldn't give a shit if there are things in there that can be used against me, at least it'll be accurate.

Originally posted by Dirty Vader
I gave you examples above of targets which are obviously mishits. Also, are you telling me 300 + children were Hezbollah? The babies too?

No, I'm not. What I am saying is that in war when you fight guerilla tactics against a terrorist group you can expect casualties and when they occur it is nearly impossible to identify if they are a part of Hezbollah, neighbor or not.

Hezbollah needs to disarm itself and give back the prisoners, this isn't so hard to do, yet it appears that it is, huh.

Since it's so hard to identify a Hezbollah militant. How the hell do the IDF know who they are targetting? When they fire GBUs or missiles on tower blocks, houses, cars , infrastructure, all of which are always used by civilians?

Hezbollah uses "innocent" civilians to store munitions and supplies, they are putting people directly into harms way. These innocent civilians are sitting on military warehousing of arms, now they have made themselves military targets.

Originally posted by Robtard
Like I said, if you want to believe Israel bombs kindergarten schools for the fun of it, go ahead; there is nothing I can tell you convince you otherwise.

I never said Israel accidentally killed people, they are waging a war and civilians die in a war, my opinion differs in that those civilian casualties are the fault of Hezbollah. I know you believe they are Israel's fault, not arguing that.

But you didn't answer my question, I cut an reposted it for you so you don't have to scroll up.

'So, [B]what does Israel need to do to appease these terrorist (which is a bad idea, appeasing terrorist only urges them to commit more terrorism)? What would it take to have peace in your eyes?' [/B]

Right, you can't convince me because it is true, in Lebanon they bomb kindergardens not for fun but simply because they don't care, but yes, sometimes they kill palestinians for fun. And yes I believe it is Israel's fault because Hezbollah only wanted exchange. Glad we made that clear.
Now your question. It depends on what country you are talking about, if Palestine, then there can't be peace and there is nothing they could do to make peace because it's a little bit late to think about it after thousands inocent palestinians they killed, and all that coused hate of Iran and Lebanon, Israel gave birth to this hatred and now wants peace, brilliant strategy. If they really want to make step toward peace, then they have to make concessions, like returning (atleast) part of conquered land and free prisoners. One thing for sure. Killing more inocent people is not a way to achieve peace.

Originally posted by Robtard
Reread what I say, I did not say no reason. I said I'd hate them out of ignorance.

Imagine for a sec, that you live in a poor family because Jews took away your home. Then they shot your mother because she was on their way and took away your father saying he is a terrorists. He didn't do anything but you know for sure you wont see him again ever, neither you'd see your mother. Then your little sister dies because of bombing. There are a lot of simillar situations in Palestine. What would you do? I'll tell you, you'd do everything you can to kill people that did it to your family and to free your father from prison.
Yeah, and know you wonder why palestinians hate Israel, and poor Israel only wants peace.🙄 Kinda late for that.

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
You don't know much about wikipedia do you, 'quality control', the requirement to list sources, the fact that only longtime members of wikipedia can edit it currently, the huge list of citations and soruces that are at the bottom of the page? People that don't like what they read usually deny it's validity because they can't accept opposing facts. 👆

Yeah right, and these facts may be written by jews who happened to be longtime members. Have to dissapoint you but wiki never was a reliable sourse. You just don't want to accept that your beloved Israel kills inocent people and makes cheap excuses.